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"All About Tenergy" BTY Science Infomercial |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I know a lot of players with Short Pips BH with very conventional forehands and some chop and even hit a few meters back and a few fish with the pips on rare occasions if the pips are fast enough. In general, I get what you are saying, but a forehand is supposed to be a stroke for all seasons and T25 makes that harder. I might be over thinking it, but it worked so differently from any other rubber I had used that I just didn't think it was worth messing up my strokes to use it.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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One of the best players in our local league uses T25 on both sides of his BTY Maze T-tec all blade. He is an all-out two winged looper, with big swings. He has zero problems looping from both close and away from the table. I find his loops harder to handle than the ones produced by many regularly coached juniors playing in the same league (who use all kinds of tensors and t05). Their loops are definitely faster, but don't feel as heavy/spinny as his.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Vvk1,
This is not the point of contention for me at least. The point would be seeing him play with another rubber and seeing his adjustments. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vvk1
Gold Member Joined: 11/14/2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 1925 |
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Nextlevel, as a matter of fact, I have asked him why is he using T25 instead of T05, and if he were tempted to try something else. His answer was similar to what I heard from other decent players - a) it's what he'd been using for a very long time now (several years); b) it is not the rubber, but technique that matters, and thus why change what works well.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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NL, what you see some SP players do is not necessarily what SP players SHOULD do to get the most out of them. I have seen people who are "BH SP curious" so to speak asking what they need to know to play that way. Almost nobody tells them they are going to have to make adjustments to their FH, but they will in fact be hitting it from a slightly different place than usual. For players having trouble with that, T25 might be worth a try. The only people I would recommend it to are people who stay really close as much of the time as possible.
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Looping back spin with T25 on a Firewall Plus. I can hit the ball with the same impulse and resulting trajectory as I can with a TBS+2xT05. It may take a slightly different stroke but T25 isn't that different. The T25's spin to speed ratio is just a little lower but it is just as fast as T05.
I don't see where looping back back spin with T25 is any harder than any other rubber. I must match the tangential speed of the ball with the tangential speed the paddle fairly closely and my timing must be right so I don't reach forward. This is a video I made today. I am looping back back spin balls thrown by my Newgy 2050 from about 12 feet behind the table. The Newgy 2050 is set to throw back spins at a speed of 25. To make this possible I bought the Newgy tray so I could move the Newgy 2050 back from the table. I mentioned in another thread that to simulate a good chopper the ball must be thrown from behind the table where a chopper would chop the ball. The ball speed will slow down by half for every 5 meters of travel so by the time the ball gets to me the speed is about 1/3 its initial speed but it still has most of it back spin. This is how I simulate looping against choppers with heavy back spin. It is easy to see that the Newgy does not throw the balls back the same way each time. Each ball is different because some balls are older and smoother than the new balls and the balls drift side to side a bit as you can see because some of the balls go off the side of the table. It takes a few strokes to get the right stroke speed because the Newgy doesn't provide any clues. I am not trying to just get the ball back. I am trying to hit is with some speed. If I were playing a real chopper I would change the pace and placement to make him run. My other Firewall Plus has TG3 Neo and GD Talon 0X on it. The TG3 is a little slower but I can still achieve the same results. The point is that I can achieve the same impulse or trajectory with these 2 rubbers. I just need to change my stroke a bit and the TG3 Neo will probably require I get my body into the stroke a bit more. I don't think T25 is worth the extra money because I can achieve the same results with TG3 Neo. BTW, where is the tension mentioned in the commercial? I know my T05 and T25 didn't look like a pin cushion as shown in the commercial when I opened up the wrapper. It rubber is tensioned then it would curl up on itself. Also, I defy you guys to explain how tension makes anything more springy when it is the internal damping that is most important. No one bothers to question what they are told. More marketing hype. |
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aroonkl
Silver Member Joined: 07/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 750 |
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To be honest and my humble opinion. You don't feel much different bc the way you loop. You do not put much part of brush or energy to spin the balls. They are like polite FH drills with light touch of brush. Brush a lot more. 3-4 times as hard and let the balls dig in rubber and sponge. T05/T25 are different.
Edited by aroonkl - 04/28/2015 at 4:45am |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Thanks for saying it . I am not in the mood to ... look at his other video to see how much spin he gets on service - it's like a dead ball compared to what I am used to generating...
Edited by NextLevel - 04/28/2015 at 7:29am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I hear you but I think about the best short pips BH players in the world and I can't remember any of them having specialist forehands. That's how I am thinking this through.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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malin87
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2013 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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Well the video kinda surprised me! I've tried both T05 and T64. The 05 is for close to the table game and 64 for a distance. That's y if u press the rubbers with ur finger u will notice that 05 is much harder!! So how can a harder rubber get more spin and longer trajectory than a softer as the video claims? The ball when hits a softer rubber pusses it deeper and get more catapult effect.. As i also saw in practice t05 gets a shorter trajectory.. That's y timo boll prefers 05 playing close to the table..if he was using 64 he will miss the hits with the ball getting out of bounce..
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Icecream AZX,T05,Spectol21
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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No one said T05 gets a longer trajectory. It says T64 has a longer trajectory and that T05 has a shorter trajectory than T05FX.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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malin87
Super Member Joined: 05/21/2013 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 175 |
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I meant higher. I saw the pic from the video and 05 had the highest one..
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Yes - when you topspin, harder rubbers have the highest trajectory. That has not been your experience? The pimple configuration is the key but all things being equal, for me, harder rubbers have higher arc.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/28/2015 at 8:53am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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To be honest and my humble opinion. You don't feel much different
bc the way you loop. You do not put much part of brush or energy to spin the
balls. They are like polite FH drills with light touch of brush. Brush a lot more. 3-4 times as hard and let the balls dig in
rubber and sponge. T05/T25 are different. Thanks for saying it . I am not
in the mood to ... look at his other video to see how much spin he gets on
service - it's like a dead ball compared to what I am used to generating... There you go shooting off your mouth again. The other video is a 3rd ball
attack drill. I was not trying to score
points on the serve because I wanted my practice partner to push back the ball
with lots of back spin so I could attack it.
BTW, my coach, 2580, says I have very good serves. I can win points of the coach with my serves. I wonder what he would say about your serves. The point is I can loop chopped balls with T25 and you admitted above that you cannot. I don’t let small difference in rubber both me because I know I
can still generate the same impulse or trajectory. I just need to adapt a bit. I can loop those back spin balls back with my hard bat
if I wanted too. Aroonki, I wasn’t hitting the ball as fast as I could but these are not polite loops like I see at the club with the high arc that can be easily attacked. My loops were deep and I try to keep them low and flat. I was really just trying to make a point that
balls can be looped back with T25 fairly easily even though the incoming back
spin is relatively high. If I my timing
is right and I match the tangential speed of the ball it shouldn’t take a lot
of effort to get the ball back. It will take more effort just getting into position. The key
is matching the tangential speed of the ball.
If I want to attack a bit more then yes, I should close my paddle and
stroke more tangentially but at this speed it is harder to do without getting
tired quickly. In the video my paddle was close about 10-20 degrees. The Newgy is speed is set for 25. At that speed the balls should be thrown at
about 50 mph but because my robot balls are shiney the real speed is probably
2/3 of that in which case the spin on the balls would be between about 115
revs/second. The tangential speed of my
stroke needs to be about 14.5 m/s or about 32.3 mph. It isn’t super fast but 115 rev/s is not trivial. Try it. T05 and T25 are different. I said so above. T25 feels firmer because of the larger pips. The result is that the ball simply doesn’t sink into the T25 as much as it does the T05. T25 is not slow. T25 has the same sponge as T05. T05 are different but not that different so what can’t make adjustments.
Yes - when you topspin, harder rubbers have the highest
trajectory. I keep hearing these myths over and over and over again. Would you know what causes the highest trajectory? Obviously not. Rubber hardness has little to do with it. My GD Guard is an anti. It is hard and dead. You can press your finger into it and you can see the indentation for a second or two. It doesn't have any spring effect at all. The rubber with the highest trajectory will have the highest tangential COR.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Those who don't know, and like to pretend they know, will never know.
BTW, isn't it dishonest to partially quote someone and remove the part of their statement that says all other things being equal? Are you just relying on people not to be able to see what kind of behavior that represents? Edited by NextLevel - 04/28/2015 at 1:18pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6899 |
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I don't feel like harder rubbers have a higher trajectory. That's just my experience.
for example, mendo mp had a much lower throw than mendo.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Did they have the same topsheet, Cole? Sometimes rubbers in the same group have fairly different topsheets (e g. Sound vs Spin vs regular in Calibra).
Edited by NextLevel - 04/29/2015 at 7:13am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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kurokami
Gold Member Joined: 11/08/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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"precision at the table" aka block/hitters and counterattackers lol hence no one uses T25 cept koki niwa for a bit. most useless tenergy imo. though jm did say you could produce the heaviest spin on short balls & serves with T25.
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Viscaria
H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Wang Tao, the best example ever. Among women, Ai Fukuhara. Their forehands are specialized to be perfect from where they generally play, distance wise, from the table, and that in turn is largely dictated by how they play their backhands owing to the SP. Trust me on this one. When you switch to a SP BH, you have to spend a lot of time retooling your forehand. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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The reason virtually no high level modern offensive player uses T25 is not what happens when you open against underspin, especially from close in, it is what happens when you have to back off the table and play against topspin. In that setting, T25 is pretty strange (if you are used to European/Japanese rubbers0, and people who might like the very hard topsheet find that pretty much any Chinese rubber does what it would do much better. It really has virtually no users as far as I can tell. T25FX is much more playable. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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I think you need to be more specific and justify your statements rather than just saying hard rubbers are faster. You can't justify your statement about harder rubbers having higher trajectory. You are the one pretending to know. Meanwhile there are always thread about boosting and making their rubbers softer for some reason. BTW, why don't you tell use where the tension is in Tenergy rubbers. Butterfly claims it is there so it must be true. |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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I don't want to butt into your shouting match & won't last for long here but here are some examples (same topsheet, different sponge with the harder version being higher throw):
Edited by slevin - 04/28/2015 at 4:27pm |
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Trade feedback:
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=50787 |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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but the T25 can still generate the same impulse. The T25 doesn't know that it is hitting the ball from 2m or 1m or at the table. I know why I wouldn't prefer T25 back from the table. It is for the reasons mentioned above. One must close the paddle a little more so the effective cross section of the blade is smaller than it would be with T05. The chances of swing and missing are higher.
Why is it strange? I don't think it is strange. Bigger pips make T25 strange? I simply think it isn't optimal for playing with back from the table for reasons stated above.
I wonder if that would be true if there were no T05,T80, and T64. So much is simply marketing and perception. Also, there is a lot of if it works for that guy it will work for me effect. I am not going to buy another sheet of T25. I will replace my T25 with a TG3 Neo when the T25 wears out.
I understand your opinion because you play with softer T05.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Well wouldn't hardbat be the hardest (from a class standpoint) and doesn't it have a very low "throw?" |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Thanks for providing most of my examples, slevin. Yes, regular and FX in Tenergy have the same topsheet. To this I would add Rhyzm 48 vs. Rhyzm 425 vs. 375 and Narucross GS soft vs. Narcurcoss GS hard. I thought it was the other way round for the longest time because I didn't realized that many series used different topsheets and therefore created softer rubbers with higher throw by playing around with the topsheet. But when I compared similar topsheets, the harder ones had better arc when spinning with medium to high power and were much more directionally precise. I may have the logic wrong, but these were my considerations.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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There may be other factors at work (like hardness range, thickness etc.), but when you have significant topsheet grip, and you keep the topsheets the same while making one sponge harder than another, my experience has been that harder sponge = higher throw and directional precision when looping and loop driving.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Last try - if you stop selectively quoting me and address the whole post, I will respond. Otherwise, I will ignore you as you are using selective quoting to distort my posts. I never said anywhere that harder rubbers are faster.
Edited by NextLevel - 04/28/2015 at 5:03pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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aroonkl
Silver Member Joined: 07/08/2011 Status: Offline Points: 750 |
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I would not even call those the loops, even polite loops. The balls did not have any enough amount of spin. Sorry again. Don't want to dis-respect you. But I could not see you were doing the proper loops to justify the difference from either Tenergy. You barely scratch the surface and mechanical spin of these rubbers. The tiny spin that parted along with those drive was merely from surface friction of rubbers. Rubbers might feel similar to you as both rubbers use same material.
Brush 4-5 times more if you could. Increase speed of your hand and swing lot more. Concentrate on brush. The balls will have substantial curve even you hit hard. They will rebound different as kick off the table surface. ===================================== Aroonki, I wasn’t hitting the ball as fast as I could but these are not polite loops like I see at the club with the high arc that can be easily attacked. My loops were deep and I try to keep them low and flat. ==================================== Edited by aroonkl - 04/28/2015 at 6:32pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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It is not a question of bad marketing. It is true that T64 and T05 were introduced earlier than T25, but T80 came out even later. T80 has found a significant following and T25 really hasn't.
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