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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:03am
I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 9:27am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 
Mb you are right.
But there exists  low of identity in the logic and to think coherently and to speak with colleagues you need to have proper terminology.
That's why imho it should be video which kinda gives some simple explanation on what is what in some plan like this:
1) Flexion + Extension; Radial + Ulnar Deviation; Pronation + Supination;
2) degree of freedom of movement with and without paddle, what positions of paddle in palm gives what;
3) How it looks on example of BH;
4) What adjustments can be done to manage the ball correctly;
Last point is exactly what you mentioned but without understanding previous 3 it does not make sense - just imagine you are using terms that 90% of people just do not understand.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/18/2022 at 10:59am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 1:54am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?


Edited by NextLevel - 12/20/2022 at 1:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:00am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:42am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.
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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

Back to normal shape bats :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:47am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

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FH: Hurricane 8-80
BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:14am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.


Timos whip and racket head speed produces spin one would think while WLQ speed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:19am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

Can you explain in plain language maybe so the masses can understand? Then there can be no confusion. Simples is sometimes best when explaining to a group of people. It woukd help alot more. 


Edited by ghostzen - 12/20/2022 at 7:19am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:49am
Supination is already clearly defined in the picture and it is a separate concept from racket angle although it is related. 

If you lean forward your racket becomes more closed and vice versa - if you raise your hand your racket becomes more open and vice versa. 

The racket angle is not just controlled by pronation/supination.....
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BH: D05

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 10:37am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

Wang Liqin has a lot of whip in his forehand loop.  Can anyone look at this stroke and say that there isn't whip in the racket?  You can see his racket lagging the stroke on the backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmO_JSMJSns

That Timo Boll uses his whip to power a smaller stroke is part of what I am talking about.  No doubt, one can get a good stroke by being more physical.  But I tend to say that a stroke without some whip is not *optimal* and has some room for visible improvement - it is not about having more whip per se, but about having visible whip.  But maybe I am overthinking it.  What I originally said was that not seeing the relaxed whip in the stroke that Valiantsin is practicing and it seems to me more shoulder driven because I don't see the lag that usually signifies good racket head speed.  His ball quality speaks for itself and is pretty high.  Having more whip in your stroke can add some instability but can improve your racket head speed.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

You said "With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general", and I'm showing evidence that it's not the case. I didn't say anything about pronation/supination. 
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BH: D09C max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 4:28pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

I am not disputing most of what they have claimed even when I disagree with it.  The only thing I was trying to point out was that when someone is getting really high racket head speed/whip with relaxed joints, there is usually visible evidence of some shaking back and forth in the wrist.  I was pointing out that for the backhand, this isn't apparent in Valiantsin's strokes, though he is getting good quality obviously.  One doesn't need to pronate or supinate to see this - you can see it on serving for example.  It's one of those cases where I think someone is used to hearing one kind of advice and when he hears/reads something similar but different (even if wrong), it is confused with what one is already familiar with.

Do you pronate or supinate per se to hammer a nail?

Timo Boll has a lot of "whip" in the forehand loop, Wang Liqin doesn't, but yet Wang Liqin has a significantly more powerful FH than Timo Boll. How do you explain that? 

Try hammering a nail with "wrist" alone without the forearm and shoulder action and you might notice how weak the wrist really is.

Wang Liqin has a lot of whip in his forehand loop.  Can anyone look at this stroke and say that there isn't whip in the racket?  You can see his racket lagging the stroke on the backswing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmO_JSMJSns

That Timo Boll uses his whip to power a smaller stroke is part of what I am talking about.  No doubt, one can get a good stroke by being more physical.  But I tend to say that a stroke without some whip is not *optimal* and has some room for visible improvement - it is not about having more whip per se, but about having visible whip.  But maybe I am overthinking it.  What I originally said was that not seeing the relaxed whip in the stroke that Valiantsin is practicing and it seems to me more shoulder driven because I don't see the lag that usually signifies good racket head speed.  His ball quality speaks for itself and is pretty high.  Having more whip in your stroke can add some instability but can improve your racket head speed.



All top players have some whip. My philosophy on technique is don't worry too much about the forward swing, you just need to keep things relaxed until you're ready to unleash power, generally from the bottom up (legs to waist to shoulder to arm to wrist to fingers). What people usually get wrong, or simply differ, is the backswing. For FH for example, many people don't weight transfer to the hind leg, or don't rotate their waist enough. When you get the backswing right, you'll naturally whip your arm/wrist/etc. during thr forward swing.

A personal example was my BH technique. People kept on telling me that I use too much wrist. I recorded a video of me playing, and felt they were right. I kept on trying to use my arm more, even adding excessive swing from my shoulder to no avail. Then I studied my videos closer and I realized that it was because I kept my elbow too close to the body. Try it, keep your elbow close to your body and you'll have almost no range of motion with your forearm. To add any speed/spin you'd have to use a lot of wrist. Once I fixed that, the forward motion fixed itself. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 5:42pm
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

I think you guys are overthinking this a bit. The bat angle naturally changes based on situation. Sometimes you brush more (close the angle, supinate), sometimes you hit more (open the angle, pronate). Taking the ball earlier and starting from a higher position, you'll naturally use pronation.

Just look at Dubina himself, take the point starting at 2:55 for example. His first shot he finishes with a lot of pronation, very unlike his training video, then the next two shots he backs off the table a lot and takes the ball much later and he supinates more.


It's basically the same as the FH loop. Open the bat angle and you get more speed but less spin and consistency, and it's easier to use a more open bat angle when you take the ball a earlier when it's just starting to fall. When you take it late then even pros need to close the angle and brush more (Xu Xin does this a lot). 

I don't really see this as a modern BH technique, but more a natural sequelae of modern tactics of playing closer to the table. 

There's the starting position which depends on the incoming ball, and what is happening during the shot itself. With the BH loop all good players supinate during the shot to arrive at a position that is more supinated than the starting position. 

With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general. 

I'm not sure what you mean by "starting". If you look at the FZD video you linked, there are plenty of slow motion close-ups, and he starts all the shots that aren't flicks with a completely flat/closed bat angle. It's just the natural wrist movement. If you start with an open angle you actually naturally close it, as you would if you were trying to brush loop a backspin ball, for example. 

Bat angle is not the same as pronation and supination and can be quite misleading as it is a function of many different joints. Forearm supination and pronation is a biomechanical action.

You said "With the modern BH technique you tend to start with a more open bat angle in general", and I'm showing evidence that it's not the case. I didn't say anything about pronation/supination. 

I personally also have a closed angle during the backswing, but really when it contacts the ball it is an open angle, and then after that it becomes less open due to the supination.  The reason it looks the way it does is because of the other joints in the body (particularly taking the elbow back) which creates this illusion of a closed bat angle in the beginning when really what matters is the racket angle at contact, and how it is changing during those milliseconds of contact. 

Especially against heavy backspin, sometimes you even need to open it beyond 90 deg (BH face facing upwards) to lift it with ease.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 6:18pm
With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.


Edited by blahness - 12/20/2022 at 6:26pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dingyibvs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.

I agree with your view on the wrist, there's no need to actively use the wrist to create quality shots, particularly on the FH. As long as you keep all your joints loose until they're activated sequentially you'll naturally be dragging your wrist and whip it forward just before contact. You can intentionally cock it backward like Timo or Liam and often times ZJK, but guys like WLQ and ML can obviously also create quality shots without it. 

For the BH since you can't use your core nearly as much, the wrist is a bit more important. Even then, you just need to worry about the backswing. You'll naturally develop a comfortable forward swing depending on the timing, location, and your preference re: spin vs speed so long as you sequentially activate your muscles. 


Edited by dingyibvs - 12/20/2022 at 7:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2022 at 8:57pm
For both FH an BH strokes I am considering 3 different types of technics. 
They have different biomechanics (starting from legs position and finishing the complex of wrist motions)
 and well distinguished by the following legends (to my mind well - to other minds it can be just confusing :) :) :) ):
1) making pancakes;
2) oared rowing;
3) lifting;
There is an ability to add right or left sidespin to all of them.
All of them suitable for topspins, smashes, drives and blocks.

From my observations - main errors happen when people are trying to mix these biomechanics as their strokes become less consistent 
(too much of additional noise to muscle memory).

"Brushing" is as far as I understood just a radial/ulnar deviation.
Actually it's really difficult (if possible at all) to remove "brushing" when you are really hardhitting the ball - easier to have your wrist slightly tensed than 
over-tensed (in this case you would deal with unnatural tense of the whole arm as it's almost impossible to tense wrist not tensing the upper arm)
or totally relaxed (totally relaxed impossible - your paddle would just be thrown away :) )
So "brushing" happens anyway and the extent of tension is limited by the type of technics (those 3 types) you use and by your legs+body explosion power you apply.
Otherwise if you overbrushing (manually give too much of a relaxation on the joint) - it can lead to pathology and finally lead to some injury.

There is a trade off for a function of (spin, speed, consistency) edge points and this trade off is between the biomechanics types you chose 
and depending that type your paddle will have one or another closed/opened angle and this angle will be changed dynamically on those 20cm which actually is mainly the scattering ellipse 
inside which you actually apply all that exploded power from legs+body through the shoulders/chest/back to the arm and palm finally be it BH or FH hit.

So the main idea - do not try to do something "unnaturally": too relaxed is also unnatural thing and  too tensed as well, all that is in between - is just ok.
You can try make little changes bit by bit and check first of all the health and after that the result of flying of the ball.
The paddle is often times 150-230grams - not so much for grown up, but the biomechanics of motion is going through so called "stretched" or weak positions (as there is no specific muscle stabilizer or the vector of movement sets it to weak position) and thus are risky as can hurt you at any time.


Edited by Valiantsin - 12/21/2022 at 6:14am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 10:50am
Originally posted by dingyibvs dingyibvs wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

With whatever loop there has to be a clear sequence of movement starting from the legs to the core to the arm to the fingers. If the "firing" sequence is not right then you lose the "whip" effect. It needs to activate one after the other (not at the same time) with the lag that people are talking about here.

But my challenge is the "role of the wrist" used actively that everyone just assumes at the moment. Wang Liqin doesn't use anywhere as much wrist whip as Timo Boll, but yet his stroke is incredibly powerful and spinny. 

Similar to Valiantsin, who doesn't use it that much but yet gets very good quality from his strokes. 

My take is that the wrist itself is quite a weak mechanism compared to the other mechanisms which are way more powerful, which matters a lot more to shot quality. Especially for amateurs, the active use of wrist only leads to a reduction in consistency in contact especially in terms of the strength of the contact - these causes errors. Pronation/supination, aided by the finger pressure (thumb for BH, index for FH) is significantly stronger and should be the main mechanism instead of the wrist in terms of adding some juice to the ball.

I agree with your view on the wrist, there's no need to actively use the wrist to create quality shots, particularly on the FH. As long as you keep all your joints loose until they're activated sequentially you'll naturally be dragging your wrist and whip it forward just before contact. You can intentionally cock it backward like Timo or Liam and often times ZJK, but guys like WLQ and ML can obviously also create quality shots without it. 

For the BH since you can't use your core nearly as much, the wrist is a bit more important. Even then, you just need to worry about the backswing. You'll naturally develop a comfortable forward swing depending on the timing, location, and your preference re: spin vs speed so long as you sequentially activate your muscles. 

Let me throw some wood on the fire here.  Without any serious concept of whip or wrist usage, can anyone explain why Wang Liqin never achieved the same appearance of two wing dominance/balance that Ma Long or FAN Zhendong or Zhang Jike did?  Was it just a style choice?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 10:53am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 11:00am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Valiantsin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 4:45pm
Check the game vs Jang Jike (whose prime was around that time - 1 year till OG championship) do you still think his BH is bad?
Check first set - who won from BH more JJ or WL :) :) ?
The result is WL 4 JJ 2 (while 1 of them is edge ball)
And last point of the whole match JJ lost from BH btw - does not mean anything - just interesting fact.



Edited by Valiantsin - 12/22/2022 at 8:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 6:53pm
FZD's entire stroke structure is based on a lot of wrapping of the ball via pronation (in the FH) and supination (in the BH) and imo is the most advanced topspin technique of the CNT at the moment. Wang Chuqin uses very similar technique too and so does most of the younger generation of CNT (for e.g. Lin Shidong). 

In fact if you look at his FH loop, during the backswing there is a brief period where he supinates the arm to allow for max room to pronate during the stroke which is why you can see the blade angle changing like a magician when the blade is about to start swinging forward. It is this pronation/supination mechanism which contributes to the complexity in FZD's strokes as compared to older gen CNT players like Wang Liqin. 

So it does appear that there's a lot of changing racket angles in his stroke (it is not so "constant" as the older players - NextLevel's slowmo demonstrates the key difference between his and WLQ's strokes). Wang Liqin doesn't even use much pronation/supination for the most part - only a bit. 

FZD even intentionally designs his stroke to take advantage of the pronation/supination mechanism - you'll notice that the bat is not completely horizontal but slightly upwards and forwards during contact - it is only in this angle which allows for the pronation/supination to coincide with the direction of the finger power to direct the force forwards/downwards 

One very simple test to show what I'm talking about - hold your forearm completely still (with only wrist allowed to move) while holding a bat. Try as you might, you cannot change the racket angle with the wrist alone without rotating your forearm - the wrist can only move up/down via radial/ulnar deviation or backwards/forwards via flexion/extension both which don't change the racket angle. 

Also with this test, you can test the power of the 2 mechanisms of the wrist vs forearm pronation/supination in this instance without help from the rest of the body. You will notice that it's not even in the same order of magnitude (the amount of force you can generate via wrist vs forearm pronation/supination). 

The biggest advantage of forearm pronation/supination is this - you can generate a lot of "secret" power even without much body involvement which is incredibly advantageous when the ball is not what you anticipated and you're in a bad position. This is even more key in close table situations (for e.g. FH flick or BH chiquita) where you can't always use your body optimally due to the table being in the way.  


Edited by blahness - 12/22/2022 at 7:01pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2022 at 11:00pm
The simplest way I can tell it is a wrist problem and not really a supination problem is to look at the many great backhands that don't supinate (Karaksevic).  But I am okay as long as people accept that backhand only survived because Wang Liqin was an amazing athlete and that there is something technically inadequate about it.  For me, the backswing is clearly not good enough.  And in my opinion you can't improve it by speaking purely in terms of supination and pronation.  But others may disagree,  there is a reason why you never saw Wang Liqin doing a banana

Not saying that Valiantsin has the same problem as he has better technique but that the wrist is not just all pronation and supination. I know you all know this, it is just about degree.  But anyone saying that Wang Liqin is not using his body would be laughed at.  But it is clear to us that something is missing from that stroke.


Edited by NextLevel - 12/22/2022 at 11:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 1:14am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

The simplest way I can tell it is a wrist problem and not really a supination problem is to look at the many great backhands that don't supinate (Karaksevic).  But I am okay as long as people accept that backhand only survived because Wang Liqin was an amazing athlete and that there is something technically inadequate about it.  For me, the backswing is clearly not good enough.  And in my opinion you can't improve it by speaking purely in terms of supination and pronation.  But others may disagree,  there is a reason why you never saw Wang Liqin doing a banana

Not saying that Valiantsin has the same problem as he has better technique but that the wrist is not just all pronation and supination. I know you all know this, it is just about degree.  But anyone saying that Wang Liqin is not using his body would be laughed at.  But it is clear to us that something is missing from that stroke.
Not sure what you're looking at, but Karakasevic has an amazing supinating BH and so does Kreanga - you can see from all the slowmos




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 1:48am
You can see in the slow motion video below how much the forearm is rotating forcefully about the axis of the forearm itself (forearm supination). This is also much more easily achieved in a position when the wrist is slightly in flexion. If you notice, the same thing is happening during the FH loop - a forceful pronation (you can see clearly the sudden acceleration it is causing even in slowmo) while the wrist is in slight extension.



Edited by blahness - 12/23/2022 at 1:54am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 2:40am
Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:09am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 9:32am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?


So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.




Edited by NextLevel - 12/23/2022 at 9:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongfugrasshopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 10:05am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

...


blahness, so based on this would it be fair to say that the vast majority of club players use supination on the BH with the rare case being something like a Seemiller grip?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/23/2022 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Karakasevic doesn't supinate on most of this backhands - he arguably pronates on more of them.  But let me pretend he does supinate.  For you, the way Karakasevic plays his backhand and Fan Zhendong plays his backhand are the same?

When claiming supination or pronation are the key to a technique,  do realize that there are many swings that are basically impossible without pronation or supination in some coincidental fashion.  The issue is not whether one pronates or supinate but whether that is the defining element of the technique.

You're again judging pronation and supination based on the racket angle which is the first mistake I've already pointed out - given that racket angle is also governed by other joints (for eg the hip and shoulder joint). 

Just because the racket angle looks open on the followthrough is no indication of pronation, I do the exact same thing (especially against backspin), the BH rubber faces the sky at the end, and it is still never pronation despite popular belief. 

This is one of the illusions that people have due to poor understanding of biomechanics, similar to how most people think that because a stroke looks like a big circle, think that they use the hand to power through the entire circle, when in fact there's almost 0 arm backswing in most pros despite the stroke looking like a big circle. The more you play the more limited the arm movement is going to be.

Anyway I guess there's no point in discussing this and other advanced techniques since most beginners have way worse problems than how to use the "wrist". Once you're at the level you're just forced to understand these concepts, or just get crushed by people who understand them, simple as that. 

So according to you, all these three swing planes on the forehand (t=66 in the video), which all have backhand analogies, are all the same and are all pronation, even when they don't appear to be and someone claiming so on the basis of the racket path and angle changes is just unable to see the subtleties?


So explain to me why the first forehand is not supination and I will get the analogy on the backhand - I think I will learn something new since I am not really great at biomechanics language, I just read this stuff on the internet.  I crush and get crushed by people who don't have a clue about any of this, so maybe I can change all that by learning.  But I doubt it since knee injuries are the limiter for me.



Yes all 3 are pronation - it's a visual illusion.

It's easy, with the racket in hand, put it very low with the FH face facing the ground. Without moving your wrist at all or pronating/supinating, use your shoulder to move it up so that the racket is above your head. 

What happens to the racket angle? You'll find that the FH face is already facing the sky without any pronation/supination business. This proves that racket angle is not only determined by pronation/supination. 

However, say if one does the exact same shoulder/arm movement, the FH face is not facing the sky but facing forward, then he must have pronated to reach that position. 

To judge accurately, you have to first replicate the body, hand and upper arm position and do it without any pronation/supination - then compare the finishing position racket angle with the picture, to truly eliminate all other factors and thus isolate the effect of pronation/supination on the racket angle.


Edited by blahness - 12/23/2022 at 5:26pm
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