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Dangers of waist rotation |
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maur1010
Member Joined: 02/07/2021 Location: nsw aust Status: Offline Points: 41 |
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Posted: 05/16/2021 at 5:11pm |
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I was watching an ex national coach the other day having a training session and it was very clear he used a lot of waist rotation on his forehand. I talked to my coach about it and he said it was an old school forehand and had a higher risk of injury. To me it looked like his stroke was a lot of hard work compared to a more modern stroke with more hip rotation. Would it be true to say that using the legs and hips more is more efficient and uses a lot less energy?
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JohnoTeaches
Beginner Joined: 05/14/2021 Location: Seattle Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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I really enjoyed reading through this thread and gained a whole lot of insight from the papers, videos and everyone's personal experiences. Thank you so much!
With very little person experience in strength training or PT, I am really struggling even with the explanations and videos to understand where waist rotation stops and thoracic rotation begins. I am working on bracing my core, swinging with my hips (with a little hop) and trying to keep my shoulders close to parallel instead of dipping low to lift up backspin.
I found this video from WRM, even if this group doesn't approve of the coach, the WRM channel's subtitled* content is fantastic. @Blahness and co., would you please analyze the coaches form at 10:44 or other timestamps: https://youtu.be/poiiSAl3Kp8?t=644 |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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This is so scary, I hope the news are only the result of over cautious coaches and that what happens to him is just the normal stuff that all athletes can experience, they deal with it and it does not threaten their career and goals.
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Updated the previous post with the latest news on Harimoto's first win in T.League 2020-2021 while recovering from his lower back pain.
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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A wrong link was being pushed again and again so I went back and edited. If you see "Edited by stiltt" at the end of your post, it was only to replace
with per post
Edited by stiltt - 12/24/2020 at 5:56am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Yeah hard to say for sure, there's 101 reasons why one can have lower back pain. It's just pure speculation...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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It’s impossible to say for certain what the cause for his back pain is. There are so many things that he does, which we don’t get to see.
Yes, it could be his new technique. Could also be his old technique, which in my opinion looks more unhealthy then his current one, that has caught up after all those years. Or a lack in physical fitness (lack of stability and muscle development) for what his body needs to endure during his sessions. Maybe something off table strength exercises that he did incorrectly or were just generally harmful. |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I think it had something to do with his new FH movement, he cut down a lot of the movement that was in his previous FH, including the very helpful feet rotation. I was watching his recent matches and more often than not his right foot is no longer perpendicular to the hitting direction during the backswing.
Edited by stiltt - 12/24/2020 at 5:49am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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There is no pro in the top 100 that doesn't use weight transfer, you simply do not get to that level without those basics
Edited by stiltt - 12/24/2020 at 5:49am |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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mykonos96
Gold Member Joined: 07/19/2018 Location: Southam Status: Offline Points: 1950 |
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Last time I ve seen him warming up,his body mechanics were so akward not fluent ,no weight transfer.
Edited by stiltt - 12/24/2020 at 5:48am |
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zeio
Premier Member Joined: 03/25/2010 Status: Offline Points: 10833 |
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Harimoto has had lower back pain during his 14-day quarantine after returning from China in late November. Been waiting for more in-depth reports but no luck. Not sure if it's related to his FH as I pointed out but posting this for future reference. https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2020/12/06/0013917433.shtml https://www.daily.co.jp/general/2020/12/24/0013960879.shtml https://article.auone.jp/detail/1/6/12/17_12_r_20201224_1608762901916662 Edited by zeio - 12/24/2020 at 6:35am |
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Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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I like to think about what to do now with the recovery from that secure and efficient fh. I hope people will promote what I think is the right way to teach the fh loop: jump from both feet and there is a road to success that is at least as good as any other school. The memory of Fan Yiyong training hard for the US Nationals inspired me to understand a safe and strong fh, and his bh was so devastating!
Edited by stiltt - 12/23/2020 at 12:29am |
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aerial
Super Member Joined: 01/11/2015 Location: NY Status: Offline Points: 499 |
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for me, the most important thing is to engage the hips and not the waist.
there is no transfer of strength from the ground up without hips.
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Probably depends also on your past injuries and physical abilities/limitations on the technique you adapt.
I like to start mine, perhaps with an over exaggeration just to reduce strain on the spine, by having my right foot pointing to the right- like I'm going to take off running in that direction, foot parallel to the end of the table. Then I'll do the mini jump and bring my whole body rotating forward so the toes of the right foot are now pointing directly at the table, or close to it. Slower recovery time and not great for the bap de bap de bap play style, which is why I have to be more choosy when to use it. And more precise with the shot (avoid power zones etc), as it needs to be a winner or good enough to receive a weak return. When playing new people, it will some times be blocked back by players who use the weird, gimpy strokes such as playing backhand chicken wing on the forehand side. So those adjustments have to be made, but the general positions are the go to. I like the body shot best, and as a change up out to the corners. I either block or chop to setup the attack, being content to defend and save energy if they wish to attack me repeatedly. The pro women do a lot of movement even during the machine gun fire points, but I dont have the training or desire to take on that!
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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+1 on freeing the feet. The knees are a simple one direction joint which can't rotate without the help of the other ball/socket joints like the hips and the ankles. So if there's a problem it's often in the feet or the hips. However, I think it's not just about feet being not planted, it's a lot more complicated than that. You actually still need to plant your feet to obtain maximum reaction force from the ground. It's all about "unplanting" strategically. To rotate I simply lift the heels off the ground and rotate about the front of the foot. So for e.g. during FH backswing you have your left heel off the ground and right foot fully planted onto the ground with 90% of the bodyweight is on the right foot. Then as your rotate and transfer your weight to the left leg, the right heel leaves the ground which allows the right foot to rotate, while the left foot rotates back to facing the front and at the end your left heel should be planted on the ground with your right heel being off the ground, with 90% of the bodyweight on the left foot). This achieves the objective of complete weight transfer as well as rotating the hips safely, powerfully and freely. On thoracic rotation, I too started off with thoracic rotation, but nowadays I think the hip rotation is primary -> the thoracic rotation for me is like a secondary booster which comes in super handy when I need to do a deceptively powerful FH safely when out of position (say when I'm jammed bad in the elbow and didn't manage to get the feet out of the way) rather than resorting to twisting at the lumbar. And it definitely happens in matches because people will absolutely jam you hard at my level. A lot of people are quite surprised at how much power I can get in those cramped chicken wing positions lol. But there's a chicken and egg problem here too, if you're overly reliant on this thoracic mechanism then you will become so lazy on your feet that you stop trying to get out of the way when being jammed . I'm starting to have to consciously train to not rely on these crutches these days and always try to move my feet swiftly into position first before doing anything else. Off topic, but I feel like the crossover footwork is also a crutch as it allows you to loop very wide balls without your right foot being in position, best not to rely on it too much. |
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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For me the biggest change wasnt anything to do with the thoracic or lumbar area...it was the feet! As others have mentioned, your weight needs to leave the ground (not necessarily a big jump or anything) to allow the knees and body to turn without any antagonistic muscles holding you back. If you stay planted, often times your legs and hips are working against the lumbar. They want to stay grounded while your upper body wants to turn. Getting your feet off the ground, even if the toes are still touch a little, frees up the body to naturally turn without having any braking effect. At least that was my experience.
I'd done the thoracic only version for a number of months and while it worked well to start with... I developed a new set of pains! Watching liu song more, I adopted a nearly 100% hip rotation technique, trying not to twist at the lumbar at all and not really at the thoracic much either. The difference for me was the mini jump. Otherwise I risked knee torques, back strains and all that good stuff. The only downside now is the knees take more of a pounding than before, depending how high and often you jump.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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@stilltt,
+1 Basically there needs to be weight transfer from right to left, and the feet and knees need to be free to allow the hip to rotate, which then transfers the rotational momentum to the upper body. I don't think the legs straightens that much (only by a bit for that upwards momentum against underspin but that's about it). I think there's also a lot to be talked about hip mobility. A lot of times with strength training we are way too quad dominant and neglect the glutes and the hip adductors. I've recently been trying to correct these imbalances as well with lunges, split squats, single leg reverse planks, resistance band side shuffles....I feel like my knees are a lot more stable since I've started training these neglected muscles. Now that I have a better understanding of the musculature, I'm finding that balance is so so important. Some injuries are caused by muscular imbalances, where you're too strong in one set of muscles and too weak in the opposing set of muscles. The muscles are attached to the joints so it makes sense that you preferably want the opposing muscles to be balanced so that the joints don't get pulled out of position by the stronger muscle.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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stiltt
Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1020 |
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I keep thinking that the 2 feet jumping at the same time to rotate on a circle from (right handed player, clock system) 10-4 to 8-2 is the way to go to protect the lower back. The recovery might be the legs’ power for a bh loop If the block comes there.
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Bending left knee, meaning your weight is on the left leg? If so, you wouldn't get any weight transfer since you're starting on the left leg and staying on the left leg?
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peterswenson
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Suggestion from an amateur here: I've found that if I bend my left knee and then straighten up for the right hand forehand, my whole body rotates but my trunk does not rotate relative to the shoulders and hips. I think that might reduce the lower back strain. But of course it means more load on the knee. Your reaction?
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Peter Swenson
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jonasnymose
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Yeah I just tried to do some ghost loops from forehand and backhand and doesn't seem natural to not move your legs while rotating.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Well if the choice is between thoracic rotation and lumbar rotation it's obvious that thoracic rotation is way safer (I would say majority of TT players are using lumbar rotation whether they realise it or not). I think basically what I learnt is that core bracing is essential to disabling lumbar rotation and you need to be disciplined about it. Harimoto seems to be bracing a lot given how straight his core is. I don't think he will have much lumbar or thoracic spine issues imo. With thoracic rotation, the joint between the thoracic spine and the ribs is what allows the rotation, and is the same mechanism that we use for breathing, so a few more reps wouldn't hurt all that much lol.... Also the extra whiplike power from combining the thoracic plus hip rotation is so addictive, it's like a drug
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Slowhand
Super Member Joined: 11/08/2018 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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You're right that Harimoto-style thoracic rotation is safer than lumbar rotation. But high rep exaggerated twisting of the spine at any level is dangerous. And as you've noticed it's difficult to isolate rotational stress at one level by bracing the others. Harimoto should change his fh technique if he wants a long career. I expect he'll at least moderate it as his legs get stronger. Amateur players shouldn't copy his fh technique. We're asking for trouble if we do.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I've pretty much transitioned most of my technique to get rid of lumbar rotation, but tonight I still felt something weird in the lumbar area! After some examining, I discovered that my issue was that I can now do thoracic rotation without any bracing at all, so I got lazy and stopped bracing. But when I stopped bracing the core, lumbar rotation crept back in. Did some shadowing and confirmed that. Basically that means that bracing the core is pretty much a must for me to prevent lumbar rotation for the foreseeable future...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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So instead of rotating and coiling the torso like ZJK which I believe is quite damaging to the lumbar, I'm switching to Harimoto's method where there is minimal lifting of the elbow and no torso rotation. I feel that the arm has to do more work in Harimoto's version, but throwing the arm forward like a punch also creates quite a lot of power.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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I'm in the process of eliminating waist rotation from my BH chiquita too...This will force me to use more arm there...see pics below for before and after transitions...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Would agree with you completely, a good hip rotation is the key, the thoracic rotation is a nice addon that can be used in bad positions and for some extra power....
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Tt Gold
Gold Member Joined: 10/22/2014 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 1302 |
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The thoracic technique might be a nice add on, but the hips are more important. Using the hips makes it hard to mess up the technique and use the lumbar spine. Using the thoracic rotation is closer to the lumbar rotation and one might still use lumbar rotation on accident. Using the hips is the best thing to do. I'm saying this because I see a lot of posts about thoracic rotation on here, but not about the hip use.
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obesechopper
Silver Member Joined: 04/20/2011 Status: Offline Points: 839 |
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Same thing I had. Guy complains about back pain every session, tried the thoracic technique for a few weeks of learning, was not able to learn it so reverted back to mr. Back pain! It took me about a week of heavy bracing and shadow practice to get it down to where I didn't use the lumbar. I may use it a few times here and there still, but nothing like the hundreds of times per day I was previously. Shit, even now if someone standing behind me calls for my attention, I just rotate with the thoracic lol... Another person who emphasizes the thoracic a lot is pro strongman Martins Licis. When watching his videos he always says do not bend from the lumbar, go from the thoracic.
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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For me I use my belly button as a point of reference, if that moves relative to the hips then waist rotation is being used. Also the love handles should not be compressed or twisted in any way if you're not using your waist. Another way is tie your pants tight at the waist level, if you try to rotate the waist the pants will tell you that you're rotating from the waist lol... Generally if you're bracing your core well then you're can't be using waist rotation...
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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