V-Grip stroke developement
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Category: Coaching & Tips
Forum Name: Video of me playing
Forum Description: Post your playing videos and get tips and suggestions from other members.
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Topic: V-Grip stroke developement
Posted By: V-Griper
Subject: V-Grip stroke developement
Date Posted: 09/19/2011 at 4:45pm
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Hi all, I am in the process of developing and refining v-grip stroke mechanics over the next year. I will post vid of strokes from time to time for comment from forum members. Thanks in advance for all comments and constructive criticism. First vid is of me working on loop mechanics. Stroke: Loop Format: multiball Intensity of stroke i.e. how hard I am trying to hit the ball: medium or what I consider medium. Spin being fed: mild topspin Speed being fed: moderate loop style: Chinese straight arm Area of focus i.e. what I was conciously focusing on when I was making the strokes:leg and torso coordination point of contact with the ball and follow through. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgF6wnFFmI&feature=channel_video_title - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgF6wnFFmI&feature=channel_video_title
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Replies:
Posted By: dalamchops
Date Posted: 09/19/2011 at 5:18pm
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u probably want to have your blade open at the right angle before the ball comes, so u don't have to make as much last second adjustment to the incoming ball. Keeping the angle constant through the entire stroke will be critical to your consistency.
------------- Stiga Titanium 5.4 Cpen Andro Hexer Pips 2.1 Donic Acuda S2 Max |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/19/2011 at 5:47pm
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Thanks I will be training tonight. Will try to incorporate your suggestion.
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Posted By: ohhgourami
Date Posted: 09/20/2011 at 2:39am
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Bend your knees more. They should be at least as wide as your shoulders. Also push off your legs to loop. V-grip mechanics seem to still require legs. Also recovery your stroke more quickly as you seem to be watching the ball after the stroke.
------------- Custom Walnut 7-ply DHS H3 Provincial untuned 40° BTY T64 210g |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/20/2011 at 6:29am
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Your problem is that the grip gives you an unstable hitting face on your bat/paddle, which is the reason that not many choose this grip, leading into the contact with the ball, you final adjustments for the angle of address, have to come from your whole wrist, making very fine adjustments very difficult, a regular shakehands player uses his index finger, a penholder index finger and thumb. Those fine tune movements of your bat face are critical to your consistency, and IMO you have a mountain to climb, but good luck anyway. ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: GraemeW
Date Posted: 09/20/2011 at 6:36am
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^^^^^^ This. ------------- Butterfly Korbel ST Red FH: BTY Tenergy T80 1.9mm Black BH: TSP Curl P4 1.5mm |
Posted By: loop+loop
Date Posted: 09/20/2011 at 7:35am
| Can you do simple strokes on this grip? I mean can you show us some practice FH to FH and BH to BH without exerting all that strength? I doubt you can do a proper FH drive off a third ball with that angle. Most pushes to your FH are slightly down spin. Can you drive those with this grip? I can only think of a lot of restrictons and handicap with this grip. What's wrong with the conventional that have worked for so many years with so many pros? |
Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 09/20/2011 at 10:10pm
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Great to know there is another V-gripper on the forum.(anybody else?, I used the V-grip to 'transition' from tennis to table tennis. It You can see fluid powerful natural-looking full-arm forehand loops(using Tom Veatch has a trove of finely written articles on the V-grip on his Here are my comments on your video(I am an amateur player): I would use a little more core and legs and more of a low to high motion. You seem to have no problem generating power, a excellent match for the V-grip. Your paddle is sometimes too closed(near horizontal) resulting in some Once you have a good V-grip blade the angle adjustment becomes less of More power to you, I think you are off to a great start. ------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
Posted By: smackman
Date Posted: 09/21/2011 at 1:25am
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Vety interesting , how do you hold the bat? ------------- Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/21/2011 at 10:29am
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This is cool dalamchops Keeping the angle constant through the entire stroke will be critical to your consistency. This is very good advice and, along with the advice from ohhgourami, resulted not only better consistency but better stroke recovery and tighter integration with footwork. I can see now that I was doing allot of unecessary movements with my arm and wrist. ohhgourami Bend your knees more... Absolutely right on with everything you said. Thank you for your diplomatic way of saying I was being lazy. And well.. I was being lazy. APW46 Your problem is that the grip gives you an unstable hitting face on your bat/paddle... I have been struggling with how much to loosen the wrist when I hit the ball. I thought that a more whip like motion would be desirable but now see this was faulty assertion. I do find that I use the finger on top of the blade to adjust firmness but that is mostly on the backhand stroke but I suspect this not what you mean. loop+loop Can you do simple strokes on this grip? I mean can you show us some practice FH to FH and BH to BH without exerting all that strength? Yes I can. In hindsight I probably should not have started with this video but I wanted to start with my weakest stroke. I will try to post vid of of my basic counter hit strokes. Most pushes to your FH are slightly down spin. This is true. I am just trying to establish very basic mechanics. Spin is another animal. Can you drive those with this grip? I think I can now with the corrections that have been suggested. I will try to get a couple thousand repetitions in and post the next vid. What's wrong with the conventional that have worked for so many years with so many pros? Absolutely nothing. I am just one of those people who likes to experiment with different things. That being said I think that the grip’s major advantage is the backhand. The reason for this IMO is the paddle is in the optimal position and angle without having to do a relatively complex wrist motion, as you do when you execute a shakehand backhand stroke. Thanks again for taking the time to watch the video and post. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/21/2011 at 10:35am
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Very interesting , how do you hold the bat? |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/21/2011 at 10:43am
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fossa
I am indeed aware of tom's site. I am down with a sub forum. I also use Google+ . Do you have any video to post? Seeing other people would, I think, help stroke development. |
Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 09/23/2011 at 2:53pm
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Here are some pics of my V-grip blade:  thumb-side grip  thumb side view of blade  ring-side view of handle  sideview of grip  ring-side grip  ring-side view of blade Looping(forehand & backhand) is done with the red(ring) side; pushing is done with the black(thumb-side). I am right-handed. Blade is made of western red cedar with a handle made of cork. I sanded some grooves in the blade to acommodate my index finger+thumb as well as to accommodate my middle finger at the edge of the blade. ------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 09/23/2011 at 4:40pm
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Hello fatt, you wrote:
That is why I sanded grooves in my blade so the blade would be inclined and the wrist angle would not be subject to change(unless you want it to, say, for blocking). That allows you to focus on the swing of the arm. Pushing with the thumb-side(black side) in my picture allows you the touch and angle of a penholder.
I hit forehand and backhand loops with the ring-side(red side) in my picture. You have touched on it, the v-grip backhand is like a reverse-penhold-backhand(RPB) except you can use more arm to hit it. ------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
fatt wrote:Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/23/2011 at 5:30pm
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Fossa- Thanks for the pics. Interesting original design. My blade is modeled more along the lines of the Chinese grip. Will post pics soon. Fatt- Funny you should mention that. My first modified blade had angle similar to what you describe. Not quit 10 degrees but it had some of the benefits you described. However on my current blade the grip is perpendicular to to the blade face. Actually the the backhand is arguably stronger than the forehand at least for me right now. A comment by APW46 has resulted in an experiment that seems to be helping. I am extending my index finger along top of the blade as if I were pointing my finger while holding the blade. This seems to have helped me stabilize the the blade face as I make ball contact. My training partner says that my loops are generating allot more spin/speed. Consistency seems to be much better. I hit about 1500 forehand loops yesterday(trained from 7P-1A multiball). Trying to incorporate the suggestions that have been made. My legs are not happy with me today. I will post another vid after I get about 5k repetitions in. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/23/2011 at 6:19pm
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I really do applaud you guys for your tenacity, but, in reality you are never going to make a name as quality players, because this grip has more holes in it than a Swiss Cheese when it comes down to consistency. If it was any good, it would be having an impact by now, How long ago was it when Tom Veatch stated that it was the next thing that was gonna take over TT? oh yes 11 yrs. Not happening yet. Go back and read his thoughts; http://www.tomveatch.com/tt/vgrip.html - http://www.tomveatch.com/tt/vgrip.html This was his observations from China, don't you think the Chinese just might have produced something by now? They have not, and you have to ask why? because its not viable, thats why. On the other hand, its quite true that in TT anything different can be successful at lower and mid levels, I would really love any of you guys to prove me wrong and make a name for yourselves. Just as a footnote, how can you possibly topspin on the f/hand side against heavy chop? the angle of the bat/paddle is far too closed, with no option of opening it, this might work in Tennis, where spin is not quite so critical, but never in TT, there is no way of lifting heavy chop with that grip, and that is probably why the Chinese have abandoned it, It leaves massive tactical holes in a players game.
------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/23/2011 at 6:22pm
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Thanks for the vid.
Unfortunately a long film of repetition of just one stroke is not very informative. I suggest that yr next vid shows the whole table and consists of a practice rally consisting of: serve push loop off push smash (In fact I think if you video yourself trying to play an actual game using this grip and study it yourself, that would probably assist you a lot in making the right choices for the future) Your actual technique did not seem right I am afraid. You seemed to swing across the line of the shot, and the racket angle was closed much more than it could be for 90% of the balls you will receive in real match play, which suggests that the ball you are being fed is unrealistically easy. IMO to develop this grip you need to start with "table play"- that is pushes, blocks, service returns etc. otherwise, though you might be able to showboat fh to fh in practice, in matches you wont get that fh in very often. However as wiggy says good luck with it...... ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/24/2011 at 6:41am
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APW46- I have read all of the content regarding v-grip on Tom's site several times. Tom himself simply stopped posting anything regarding his own progress after awhile. I think he ran into all difficulties you and others have outlined and reached his limit of the grip's potential. Even if I chose a more conventional style I still would not be able to become a high level player. I might make progress a little faster as a result of access to coaching and well established techniques, but ultimately I am limited by the raw amount of time and effort that is required. I suffer no delusion that this is somehow a miracle grip that will deliver me into the pantheon of table tennis gods. I agree that I may suffer from a mild case of loss aversion but in my case what really matters is that I got off my fat ass and exercised intensely for 6hrs. pingpongpaddy- It is already somewhat painful for me to look at. I think it is funny that I described it as a loop. It is more like a buggy whipped half counter hit/low smash. Oh well we all had to start somewhere. Thank you for your suggestions. |
Posted By: APW46
Date Posted: 09/24/2011 at 11:56am
fair enough, you are a realist, somewhat of an attribute, keep us posted on your development please.  ------------- The Older I get, The better I was. |
Posted By: pingpongpaddy
Date Posted: 09/24/2011 at 5:56pm
don't beat yrself uplooking at thousands of forehands. Rather film yrself attempting pushes blocks and smashs all at the same time. This will enable you to analyse which bat face is right for each shot. Then you will have someting to build on. Good luck ------------- inactive dotec carbokev yin he galaxy 1 p ly FH moristo sp AX MAX bh moristo sp ax max |
Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 09/24/2011 at 7:18pm
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I agree, Tom Veatch is a genius and brilliant writer to boot. We need him to shed some more light on v-grip mechanics and maybe comment and answer some questions.
------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/25/2011 at 12:14am
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Here are pics of my blade and how I hold it. The blade is a galaxy(yin-he) T-4. Top side rubber is geospin tacky. Bottom side rubber is hurricane III.    This is the way I would normally hold the paddle.   I am experimenting with having my index finger across the top of the blade. So far it seems to have stabilized the paddle face at the moment of ball contact. Subjectively speaking I seem to be able to feel the ball dig into the rubber, which is something I did not perceive before. Thanks to APW46. It is such a simple thing but I never would have thought of this on my own.  Side note: This blade is way to fast for my level I think. I am contemplating making one out of western red ceder. If anyone has any blade recommendations I am open to suggestions. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/25/2011 at 1:17am
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In a previous post I mentioned that I may have a mild case of loss aversion. I used the wrong term. I meant to refer to irrational escalation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_escalation - Irrational escalation – the phenomenon where people justify increased investment in a decision, based on the cumulative prior investment, despite new evidence suggesting that the decision was probably wrong.
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Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 09/26/2011 at 1:20am
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V-griper, I too started out with Hurricane(II in my case) on my ring-side, it helped me develop my forehand a little. Then, after my equipment-junkie phase, I switched to Sriver EL on my ring-side and my backhands started to go in more than they were going into the net(as was the case with the tacky Hurricane). For my thumb-side I use Spectol short pips which works very well for pushes that need some touch. Maybe after I start getting better and more consistent I'll look into faster rubbers. My homemade western red cedar blade is very light(~ 75 grams) and the rubbers were making it head-heavy so that my pushes didn't 'feel' right so I counter balanced it with some fishing weights(in the cork) at the butt of my handle. After balancing the blade(to be less head heavy) it had a much better feel for both looping and pushes. ------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 09/26/2011 at 9:24am
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Fossa, I actually seem to prefer a more head heavy blade. More angular momentum. My training partner is suggesting Palio Thor's on the ring side because of the fact that I use the same rubber for the forehand and backhand. He seems to think that I need the tacky top sheet because I tend to brush the ball on my forehand now, and the spring sponge for my backhand which has a slightly more open face at ball contact. I will probably stay with a tacky rubber on the thumb side to keep my serves relatively spiny. I would like to try making a blade out WRC. Do you know how I would go about sourcing materials?
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Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 10/01/2011 at 12:26pm
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Western Red Cedar is commonly used cedar for fencing and roof shingles. It is naturally abundant in the Pacific Northwest and has a great strength to weight ratio. I got mine from LS Cedar in Washington, they sell small kiln-dried(more resistant to warping) planks/pieces. If you are planning to make a single-ply blade I would not plane it down to a thinness of less than about 7mm.(9mm-12mm is maybe an average thickness range) The feel of these blades is unique and the closest I can come to describing it is like hitting a baseball with a wooden bat. ------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
Posted By: pnachtwey
Date Posted: 10/01/2011 at 2:15pm
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I saw the video. What if the ball doesn't have as much top spin? Then you must twist your arm more to open the paddle more? If the ball has back spin then you may need to decide to use the black side of the paddle. It seems that this introduces another decision point even when hitting with just the fore hand.
I don't see an advantage. It is just different. I will like to see a game where you have to play someone that is spinning the ball in random ways. I would be looking for the decision points and attack them. ------------- I TT therefore I am |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 10/02/2011 at 8:29pm
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Thank you for looking at the vid. I only use the black/top side for service, service return short to the forehand, and scooping balls from the floor. I use the red/bottom side for everything else.
So far I have not had much difficulty looping underspin in casual games. Consistency is an issue but it is unclear if this is a grip limitation or a training issue. I am reasonably certain that conventional players experience similar problems with consistency during their development. I should have a better idea in a couple of months. So far I have not experienced any undue stress or strain in my arm or shoulder. Blade angle is approx 70-80 degrees relative to the plane of the table for the underspin loop. The primary advantage of the grip IMO is the backhand. Right now may game is heavily biased towards the backhand side which is why I am mainly working on the forehand mechanics. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 10/02/2011 at 8:42pm
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Fossa- Thanks. I will see if I can find it locally.
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Posted By: zephyr
Date Posted: 11/11/2011 at 5:10pm
| Gotta post just because I recognize CCHS! Keep up the good work A. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 11/11/2011 at 5:18pm
| Who dat? |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 3:17pm
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That is very interesting. looks like the evolution of the grip is moving towards a pistol grip shape. By the way. The guy in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T2mqd2soA - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1T2mqd2soA plays at my club now. However he no longer uses his v-grip paddle anymore. He has switched to shakehands. What is interesting is that he strokes the ball in a very similar manor to what you see in the video. Kind of an elongated pushing motion.
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Posted By: Cho!
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 3:39pm
------------- Jpen: Senkoh-1 w. Xiom Vega Pro SH: Expert All+ w. TG3 Neo & Illumina |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 4:52pm
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He strokes the same way when he plays shakehands. I think this is the result of a mostly self taught stroke technique. I think it would be very difficult for him to change his stroke mechanics at this point. My backhand is without a doubt the best overall part of my game. I am actually spending a huge amount of time and effort on my forehand so I can be more balanced on both sides.
I model my stroke mechanics after WLQ and ML. For me their are virtually no differences in basic stroke mechanics between v-grip and conventional grips. |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 5:07pm
I don't think you and this guy really are using the V-grip. You both are using more of a pistol grip and using the backhand side (let's just call it that for now, shall we?) to hit forehands. It actually looks like the RPF - reverse penhold forehand
 When the RPB first came out, everyone was skeptical of it too. So all I can say is don't give up.As for the V-grip, it's still a valid style as shown by the Seemillers (Danny 2400, Danny Jr. 2150, Ricky 2250, and Randy 2280) as well as Eric Boggan (2550). However, they all had extensive junior training and with the exception of Danny Jr., lots of international tournament experience.
V-grip players I face above 2000 have good forehands and footwork and really only use the anti-spin only to return serves, block short if the opponent is far from the table, and change pace. They don't rely on having unfamiliar equipment. Sub-2000, I see much more blocking using anti and regular on the BH and sometimes twirling. With equipment, of course the Seemillers popularized the anti on one side and regular on the other. However, I know some guys prefer long pips OX and regular. Here's a guy from MD attacking with the V-grip backhand. He's been as high as 1860.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RXUO8-ppKI#t=22m00s - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RXUO8-ppKI#t=22m00s
To be honest, I would discourage you from using the V-grip or pistol grip because with limited coaching available, good players won't even be able to give you advice even if they wanted to. I would instead recommend that you become a modern defender - blocking with long pips while close to the table and chopping as you are forced back, the whole time looping or fishing anything that goes to your FH. This will also make you move more if burning calories is what you're after
Good luck! |
Posted By: zephyr
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 6:45pm
| Funny you should mention the Seemillers. Danny got his start in the same club as V-gripper now plays, and Randy is still an active player at the same club. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 7:02pm
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I think their may be some confusion. The grip you are referring to is called the seemiller grip. The top player at my club is, in fact, Randy seemiller(Randy is wearing the grey shirt) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke533P8PdXc - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ke533P8PdXc . I understand the confusion because their is a "V" formed between the thumb and forefinger when you use the seemiller grip. The pistol grip is called a "V" grip because paddle is pinched between the index finger and the middle finger. These are the fingers you use to form the victory sign with your fingers. Here is the video of me hitting forehands during multiball. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgF6wnFFmI&feature=channel_video_title - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNgF6wnFFmI&feature=channel_video_title . No real reason to keep calling it the v-grip. Pistol grip is much more descriptive with regard to the shape of the handle. |
Posted By: BeaverMD
Date Posted: 11/28/2011 at 11:56pm
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Oh wow. Yeah, I definitely use the terms V-grip, Seemiller grip, and windshield wiper grip interchangeably. I never would have called the grip you're using (I guess we call it pistol grip now) as V-grip. I would have called it eagle claw grip
Also, I discouraged you from pursuing the Seemiller grip because of lack of coaching. But with Randy being in your club, I'm changing that. You should just be copying him and getting some advice every now and then. No need to reeinvent the wheel... unless you like being an inventor.
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Posted By: strikewzen
Date Posted: 12/26/2011 at 10:37am
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been doing the V grip since 2007 2 best players on school team were in so called "provincial level" from taiwan, they were the ones who got me into ping pong in 2006 every time they see me they say dude you look like a retard, use RPB PLEASE i agree RPB when done like wang hao beats V grip hands down but most people can't play like wang hao, and V grip has potential to hug the table better pros: 1) same side rubber FH & BH allow weight reduction or anti/LP on otherside (also a downside due to most people prefer different rubber for FH and BH, but i model after timo for compact table hug) 2) minimal windup and able to play FH in almost neutral stance 3) over the table FH loop is better, i know it's hard to believe until i prove it but with a whipping motion of wrist you don't flick anymore but loop 4) able to loop wide angles with same stance on FH cons: 1) no coach not trial proven no specialized equipment 2) learning curve is as steep as RPB 3) backhand block is too slow(deceptive opponent), requiring grip change 4) service require grip change (shown in video in reply to http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46309&title=update-vgrip-stroke-developement) 5) far from table 2 wing loop is easy but never penetrates (safe spinny shots) 6) wrist injuries 7) many many more weaknesses that i am not aware of keep doing the V grip if you believe in it like i do, i am very tempted to record some games just to prove that it is capable to play competitively and i will put in the effort to upload asap vs chopper is no problem, in fact better than SH if you believe me, due to weight saving and more wrist spin. the 2 players have graduated earlier this year and they both complimented on the V grip forehand, i have nothing to prove but if you stick to it and give it serious thought, you can do it. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/26/2011 at 12:32pm
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One major roadblock must be overcome if the v-grip, or pistol grip as it is called in China, is to take off is the angle of impact between the blade and the ball. As the forearm is naturally held in a neutral position with the palm facing the side of the body when hanging down, the blade face is pointing to the front and back when held with the v-grip. And since the v-grip itself takes out the slight but significant manuverbility of the thumb and index finger in inclination adjustment of blade angle, which is fundamental with the shakehand and penhold grip, one is forced to rely entirely on the supination and pronation of the forearm to open up the blade face to play the forehand and the backhand strokes, respectively. From your videos, it is easy to tell you can play the backhand with relative ease but in contrast have huge difficulties playing the forehand with both force and accuracy with the forearm in the supinated position. I am sure with time you will improve. But given its complexity, you may have an easier time doing the forehand stroke with the forearm in the pronated position, that is, hitting with the top blade face. One advantage of doing that is it reduces your workload by simplifying the routine where the forearm is kept in pronation, which is similar to the penhold grip switching between forehand and RPB, so that switching between the forehand and backhand can be as fluid as with the shakehand grip, during which the forearm is kept relatively neutral. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: strikewzen
Date Posted: 12/26/2011 at 3:51pm
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i have shown in this video how to stabilize the blade angle http://youtu.be/PPzjDKRIBng - http://youtu.be/PPzjDKRIBng forgive me it was done in a hurry with no help, i will try to record a game soon as possible so far i find it best to play forehand at top of the bounce, more like intercept than to loop on weak shots you still intercept with the wrist cut but hit into the ball with footwork/waist or arm with what's out there that represent the v grip right now i understand why no one believes in it, but i hope to change that thought just a little bit |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 4:40am
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How do you do forehand pushes? It feels awkward using only the underside for that. For the v-grip to gain a foothold, it is required to at least match either the penhold RPB grip or shakehand grip in both forehand and backhand shots of any type and/or offer something unique. One of the pros of having two sides is to maximize versatility. The Chinese is playing with a tacky rubber on one side and a grippy rubber on the other mainly because both sides perform differently as well as balance out the paddle, and their games take advantage of that fact, like the tacky is good for the short game and 3rd ball kills whereas the grippy is better at blocking, lobbing and smashing. Using the v-grip with one side only is thus a regression. Weight should not be an issue considering it facilitates the grip strength similar to that of shakehand and yet retains the freedom of wrist of penhold during serve without having to change grip and when doing forehand pushes over the table close to the net, which is a pain for the shakehand grip and why Zhang Jike, Wang hao et al. prefer to step across to the wide forehand to do the chiquita. Another hurdle facing the v-grip is the cross-over point. Both http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPmwJ6wG-Ao&feature=player_profilepage#t=448s - penhold RPBers and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPmwJ6wG-Ao&feature=player_profilepage#t=545s - shakehanders often deal with it by leaning to the forehand side and do the backhand stroke with the wrist flexed toward the body to create more leverage. With the v-grip, if one is to do that, the wrist may have a harder time pulling toward the body when the forearm is in pronation as http://davisplus.fadavis.com/wilkinson2/Animations/animations.cfm?exercise=rom_31_12&title=Wrist%20%28Condyloid%20Joint%29:%20Abduction%20and%20Adduction - abduction of the wrist is normally limited to 20 degrees where flexion of the wrist can readily reach 80-90 degrees. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 8:51am
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Another variation of the v-grip, which is more like the real pistol grip resembling a handsaw, alleviates the cross-over issue as it is held between the thumb and index finger, which are capable of http://www.pingpang.info/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=199&id=256341&page=2&star=4 - swerving the blade to a limited extend. As the blade face is in line with the palm, this variation suffers in pendulum serve nonetheless. Unlike the shakehand service grip, the handsaw design makes it next to impossible to do with the pistol grip. Tomahawk serve is therefore the more viable option. Examples of this variation include the Yasaka http://www.yasaka-jp.com/ca_rack/d51.html - C-H3P and http://www.yasaka-jp.com/ca_rack/d50.html - C-5P , http://www.yasaka-jp.com/ca_rack/d51.html - Liang Geliang blade , and http://www.feimeng.net.cn/2qitapingpai/2qiangpai.htm - pistol blade . ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 1:13pm
After looking at your video I can see why your list of pros and cons looks the way it does. Imo the blade handle shape matters allot. The Chinese style V/Pistol-Grip eliminates allot of the problems in your cons list. The main issue, as I see it, is that the handle extends past the palm such that when you flex you wrist it digs into the inside of your wrist. This limits your ability to flex your wrist freely. Since you have other blades to experiment with I would suggest that you try the following mods. 1. Cut the handle short, so that the end rests inside the palm when your middle finger is around the end of the cork( this is assuming you are using an upside down jpen like the one in your vid). About where the major creases are. Take a little off at a time and see how it feels. When you can flex your wrist without it digging into your palm you probably have it right. 2. Glue a finger block on the top to wrap you finger around. Some Pics of Chinese player and his grip.
   Wang Guangyao was born 7/22/1989. He won the China National Amateur Junior Championship in 10/2000 (at age 11). He is on the Beijing City Team. He is estimated to be a 2400-2500 level player (USATT rating system) The above pictures and caption are from tom veatch's site. Link below. Other references: Tom veatch- http://www.tomveatch.com/tt/vgrip.status.0212.html - http://www.tomveatch.com/tt/vgrip.status.0212.html Korean site. Lots of blade design pics. http://community.freechal.com/ComService/Activity/Album/CsPhotoList.asp?GrpId=1242834&ObjSeq=1&grpurl=4vd - http://community.freechal.com/ComService/Activity/Album/CsPhotoList.asp?GrpId=1242834&ObjSeq=1&grpurl=4vd My strokes and play style are fairly conventional. I am probably going to end up being a two winged looper. |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 2:06pm
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Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 12/27/2011 at 11:48pm
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I'd like to echo what V-Griper says about the handle not poking your lower palm. It might be a good experiment to sand it so that it nestles(rather than digging in) into your lower palm or shorten it a little bit. The middle finger finger-hold is good to allow you to swing hard without fear of the blade flying out of your had. Also try putting some light-weight short pips(TSP Spectol 1.4mm for example) onto the other side(thumb-side) of your blade and use that to push. I greatly improved my pushes when I did that.
------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/28/2011 at 1:11am
Well, that's what I was trying to allude to after reading strikewzen's pros listing same side rubber for forehand and backhand. I should have quoted that in my post.
------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 12/28/2011 at 2:56am
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The http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUX0mOVjwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=105s - combination of adduction(or ulnar deviation, 30-50 degrees) and flexion of the wrist gives rise to a much wider freedom, as seen in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUX0mOVjwg&feature=player_detailpage#t=435s - Zhang Jike's and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuKE7nGPTBs&feature=player_detailpage#t=222s - Kenta Matsudaira's fade blocking a diagonal shot down-the-line by supination of the forearm with the wrist adducted and flexed (called 抹, or wipe, literally), an advanced stroke that is well exclusive to the shakehand grip. Penhold RPB and certain v-grip can hardly mimic this shot as the backhand stroke depends on the forearm in pronation to open up the blade angle, but with that the degree of motion of the wrist is limited by abduction(radial deviation), which makes blocking straight down very difficult.[/QUOTE]
I agree with this in general. I can execute a similar shot, but it requires a little more effort. RPB has the same drawback. I am just starting to develop and refine my backhand stroke mechanics. Using my forehand development as a rough guide it should take about 3-4 months and about 30-40 thousand repetitions. By then I should have a better sense of whether the points you mention turn out to be significant liabilities in match situations.
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Posted By: strikewzen
Date Posted: 12/28/2011 at 6:19am
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i did attempt the shortened handle inside palm and made a modified racket similar to ones shown in the picture since tom's site was the only information available at the time (early 2007) i believe i saw him play and in couple videos and found the backhand to be problematic (difficult to "rip the ball in a explosive wrist motion" as for the forehand handle, my blade angle is stablized with extended index and thumb forming the L shape shown on youtube. this is crucial for me, without it shots are very inconsistent (for me) my backhand after grip change is similar to shakehand, but require the elbow to be higher, i will find oppertunity to film in action thanks guys i enjoy all of your comments very much and i don't feel alone like before, thank you so much for your company |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/28/2011 at 9:00am
There is no need for the wait as those issues have been discussed at great lengths on various chinese forums. This http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/VP-66uQ9tds/?FR=LIAN - training video reveals the complexity of doing the forehand stroke with the underside rubber. Those poor balls keep going into the net. From his stroke I suppose he is having trouble to get the timing right and most of the force go into grazing instead of hitting contact as I am pretty sure he must find it hard and odd to swing and keep the forearm supinated. He has to make a conscious effort, as instructed by the "coach" starting at 1:36, to supinate the forearm to over 90 degrees to open up the blade angle, but it doesn't get them far as the balls still aim for the net, so there must be something else causing that. Abduction of the wrist could be one. Another case of reinventing the wheel nonetheless. This is not supposed to happen to the v-grip as the whole concept behind its formulation is to reduce the learning curve and make those forehand and backhand strokes easier to execute with than either shakehand or penhold grip. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: V-Griper
Date Posted: 12/28/2011 at 12:44pm
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There is no need for the wait as those issues have been discussed at great lengths on various chinese forums. This http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/VP-66uQ9tds/?FR=LIAN - training video reveals the complexity of doing the forehand stroke with the underside rubber. Those poor balls keep going into the net. From his stroke I suppose he is having trouble to get the timing right and most of the force go into grazing instead of hitting contact as I am pretty sure he must find it hard and odd to swing and keep the forearm supinated. He has to make a conscious effort, as instructed by the "coach" starting at 1:36, to supinate the forearm to over 90 degrees to open up the blade angle, but it doesn't get them far as the balls still aim for the net, so there must be something else causing that. Abduction of the wrist could be one. Another case of reinventing the wheel nonetheless. This is not supposed to happen to the v-grip as the whole concept behind its formulation is to reduce the learning curve and make those forehand and backhand strokes easier to execute with than either shakehand or penhold grip. [/QUOTE]Wow. That is the first video I have seen of a Chinese player using this grip. Thanks. I don't know if you have seen the updated video of me so I will post it here. Be aware that my both the top and bottom of my paddle have black rubber. However in this video I hit everything with the bottom side. Some things to look for while you watch. You will notice that my index finger is extended across the top of the paddle(see first page of this post for pictures of how I grip the paddle).I have found that control of the paddle angle is more refined and stable if I extend my index finger across the top of the paddle. APW46 commented on this earlier in this post and it has made a big difference. Sequence: Forehand counter hit warm up. Backhand counter hit warm up. 3 rounds multiball forehand loop with basic footwork. 1 round multiball backhand experimental( I am just starting to work out backhand mechanics). |
Posted By: strikewzen
Date Posted: 12/29/2011 at 1:11am
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Mr. Zeio, you have mentioned there are chinese forums discussing the V grip perhaps i misunderstood, but if you still are familiar with the sources could you point me in the right direct please. i would love to read those topics, actually what is the V grip called in chinese? i can read and type chinese no problem, please let me know, thanks so much sir. |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/29/2011 at 6:26am
I have seen it in your other thread. Extending the index finer over the blade is analogous to placing the index finger, or having the middle, ring, and little fingers stacked on the backhand rubber for shakehand and penhold grip, respectively. Oftentimes shots do not land dead-on in the http://sciencedemonstrations.fas.harvard.edu/icb/icb.do?keyword=k16940&panel=icb.pagecontent197095%3Ar%241%3Fname%3Dindepth.html&pageid=icb.page80674&pageContentId=icb.pagecontent197095&state=maximize - center of the paddle and this "tweaks" your grip. So having a finger as extra support is desirable in reducing the domino effect. Another benefit is that the index finger also can press on the blade face and assist in opening its angle. But then you give up a portion of the grip strength and the finger could potentially get in the way during pushes, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjtxnunl9eY&feature=player_detailpage#t=640s - touch shots are usually done near that part . ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: Hookshot
Date Posted: 12/29/2011 at 7:14am
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Here is your stroke done with pen hold. Watch the whole clip, there is slo-mo that shows it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcscISPzk5Y&feature=player - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcscISPzk5Y&feature=player |
Posted By: zeio
Date Posted: 12/29/2011 at 9:13am
There are many names and variations for the v-grip, "長有四面攻(Chang You Four-Side Drive)", "槍拍(Pistol Grip)", "古氏直拍(Gu's Penhold Grip)", "梁戈亮牌球拍(Liang Geliang's Blade)", just to name a few. They fall into two categories, shakehand-like or penhold-like, depending on how it is held. Both types implement designs that look to enhance on the strengths and minimize the weaknesses of popular grips. But the catch here is either type is essentially a superficial modification of the shakehand or penhold grip and so bears the same fundamental properties of its respective grip, desirable or not. On top of that some of those designs often unthoughtfully thus unintentionally introduce complications as pointed out in my previous posts. Here is http://www.sundns.org/discuz/viewthread.php?tid=256952 - one review about the 槍拍(pistol grip). http://ent.veryeast.cn/ent/74/2005-8/29/2005829928.htm - Another one . The following is an http://www.cn-tt.com/Pagetemplate.asp?ID=25003 - article about modifying the 槍拍 by tilting the blade face from the handle by 10 degrees, with the aim of reducing the level of pronation and supination on forehand and backhand strokes. ------------- Viscaria FL - 91g + Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare) + Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃) = 184.8g |
Posted By: fossa
Date Posted: 12/30/2011 at 12:20am
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I think this thread might be referencing the v-grip as the grip with the blade sandwiched between the index and middle fingers with the handle(of whatever size and shape) resting against the palm.(instead of resting like a pen as with the penhold grip).
------------- Single Ply Western Red Cedar Blade(homemade)/Sriver EL/TSP Spectol |