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2020 German Open. Jan 28 to Feb 2.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2020 at 4:46pm
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

xX, with RBH, seems to have an upper hand against ML now. Hope he can play singles at Tokyo too. 

Tbh XX has been playing better than FZD in general for the past few months...but LGL seems to be fixed on FZD ML for singles and XX for mixed doubles/teams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kindof99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2020 at 7:30pm
FZD needs to play singles this time as he will be playing for the next Olympics. And ML played last Olympics and he will play too.

Unless somethin odd happens, XX will probably not play singles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2020 at 9:42pm
ML should sit this one out. FZD and XX for Singles!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote penholderxxx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/02/2020 at 10:46pm
Just checking, will there be team events; men team and women team in the 2020 Tokyo olympics ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2020 at 9:09am
On women side, this is another nail in LSW's coffin regarding the single selection IMO.
 
She must be better ranked than Ito Mima in the last ranking just before the olympics.
The Chinese board would never picked 2 players who will be on the same side of the table in the olympics because it would allow ito the possibility to become champion if she defeats only one CNT player and that is really possible.
They will pick 2 players who will be ahead of Ito.
 
More over, LSW is really good in mixed double with XX…...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2020 at 10:34am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

On women side, this is another nail in LSW's coffin regarding the single selection IMO.
 
She must be better ranked than Ito Mima in the last ranking just before the olympics.
The Chinese board would never picked 2 players who will be on the same side of the table in the olympics because it would allow ito the possibility to become champion if she defeats only one CNT player and that is really possible.
They will pick 2 players who will be ahead of Ito.
 
More over, LSW is really good in mixed double with XX…...

I don't believe this is true. I think the Olympics does separate the players from the same nation into separate halves of the draw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote skip3119 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/03/2020 at 11:15am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:


I don't believe this is true. I think the Olympics does separate the players from the same nation into separate halves of the draw.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 1:32am
the rule: 

point 4.5.2.3: "Players from the Same association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 only in the preleminary rounds but not in the further rounds".

So, both Chinese might be in the same side of the table, unless both are seeded n°1 and 2 what will guarantee them not to play each other before the final.
That is how I understand the rule.




Edited by kakapo - 02/04/2020 at 1:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 1:41am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

the rule: 

point 4.5.2.3: "Players from the Same association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 only in the preleminary rounds but not in the further rounds".

So, both Chinese might be in the same side of the table, unless both are seeded n°1 and 2 what will guarantee them not to play each other before the final.
That is how I understand the rule.



When you cite the rule, you should link to the source.  The question is what event it applies to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 1:47am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

the rule: 

point 4.5.2.3: "Players from the Same association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 only in the preleminary rounds but not in the further rounds".

So, both Chinese might be in the same side of the table, unless both are seeded n°1 and 2 what will guarantee them not to play each other before the final.
That is how I understand the rule.



When you cite the rule, you should link to the source.  The question is what event it applies to.

Regulation for world, olympics and paralympic title competition.

That is in the ITTF handbook 2019.


Edited by kakapo - 02/04/2020 at 1:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 3:38am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

the rule: 

point 4.5.2.3: "Players from the Same association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 only in the preleminary rounds but not in the further rounds".

So, both Chinese might be in the same side of the table, unless both are seeded n°1 and 2 what will guarantee them not to play each other before the final.
That is how I understand the rule.



When you cite the rule, you should link to the source.  The question is what event it applies to.

Regulation for world, olympics and paralympic title competition.

That is in the ITTF handbook 2019.


You are right.  It will be interesting to see whether this modifies China's approach to team selection given Mima Ito's ranking.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 4:39am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

the rule: 

point 4.5.2.3: "Players from the Same association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 only in the preleminary rounds but not in the further rounds".

So, both Chinese might be in the same side of the table, unless both are seeded n°1 and 2 what will guarantee them not to play each other before the final.
That is how I understand the rule.



You can check these and see if you can find any country where they have 2 players in the same half of the draw, I couldn't.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 5:42am
Yes, I have seen this.
 
How do you understand the ITTf rule ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 5:50am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:


How do you understand the ITTf rule ?


3.6.3.3  The entries ranked 1 and 2 shall be drawn into different halves
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 7:08am
That is exactly what I wrote: only the players ranked 1 and 2 are sure to be in different half of the table .
 
And "not in further rounds" makes it clear: players from the same country may play each other in the rounds after the preliminary one.
 
Or maybe, there is another regulation from the Olympic board which says other thing.


Edited by kakapo - 02/04/2020 at 7:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 7:43am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

That is exactly what I wrote: only the players ranked 1 and 2 are sure to be in different half of the table .
 
And "not in further rounds" makes it clear: players from the same country may play each other in the rounds after the preliminary one.
 
Or maybe, there is another regulation from the Olympic board which says other thing.


Yes.  But before 2018, there was separation by association built into ITTF draws so it was expected to not play countrymen until as late as possible.  So looking at past Olympics is not a guide to what will happen now.  However, with the changes, there has to be an Olympic exception and I couldn't find one in the book.  Bobrow hinted in a broadcast that he believed that separation by association would be in play in the Olympics but I cannot find the written guideline.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote reflecx Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 9:15am
Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

That is exactly what I wrote: only the players ranked 1 and 2 are sure to be in different half of the table .
 
And "not in further rounds" makes it clear: players from the same country may play each other in the rounds after the preliminary one.
 
Or maybe, there is another regulation from the Olympic board which says other thing.


Seeding by Association Nomination

3.6.3.1 Nominated players and pairs of the same Association shall, as far as possible, be separated according to of 3.6.3.3 and 3.6.3.4 unless otherwise stated in the specific regulations for such particular event or group of events.
3.6.3.2 Associations shall list their nominated players and pairs in descending order of playing strength, starting with any players included in the ranking list used for seeding, in the order of that list.
3.6.3.3 The  entries  ranked  1  and  2  shall  be  drawn  into  different  halves  and  those ranked 3 and 4 into quarters other than those occupied by the first two.

"The entries ranked 1 and 2" should be referring to each association's no.1 and 2, not world ranked 1 & 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 9:24am
Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

That is exactly what I wrote: only the players ranked 1 and 2 are sure to be in different half of the table .
 
And "not in further rounds" makes it clear: players from the same country may play each other in the rounds after the preliminary one.
 
Or maybe, there is another regulation from the Olympic board which says other thing.


Seeding by Association Nomination

3.6.3.1 Nominated players and pairs of the same Association shall, as far as possible, be separated according to of 3.6.3.3 and 3.6.3.4 unless otherwise stated in the specific regulations for such particular event or group of events.
3.6.3.2 Associations shall list their nominated players and pairs in descending order of playing strength, starting with any players included in the ranking list used for seeding, in the order of that list.
3.6.3.3 The  entries  ranked  1  and  2  shall  be  drawn  into  different  halves  and  those ranked 3 and 4 into quarters other than those occupied by the first two.

"The entries ranked 1 and 2" should be referring to each association's no.1 and 2, not world ranked 1 & 2.

That makes sense.  If there are only two players from an association, as is the case with the Olympics, and they are both in the main draw, then they are seeded in opposite halves.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/04/2020 at 9:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote apacible Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 1:45pm
The addition of this section in the 2019 ITTF Handbook, which applies to the Olympic Games, was only a recent amendment done during the Board of Directors meeting during the 2019 World Table Tennis Championships. It was actually Proposition 21 on the Board of Directors meeting agenda:

Olympic Competition
"4.5.2.3. Players of the same Association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 3.6.3.4 and 3.6.3.5 only in preliminary rounds but not in further rounds."

In the document, this was cited as the rationale for the amendment. 
"Rationale: The ITTF World Ranking should be the main criteria for Olympic Draws."


I don't have a definite answer yet on whether the amendment to the ITTF handbook means that the upcoming 2020 Olympics has abolished the separation by association rule, and we should wait for a clarification from ITTF. However, if the rationale for the amendment was to make the Olympic draws mainly based on ITTF World Ranking, then it makes sense to do away with separation by association for the Olympic Games.

Maybe one can also compare and contrast the 2018 ITTF Handbook and the 2019 ITTF Handbook, particularly with regard to the amendments to the "Seeding by Association Nomination" section and the "Olympic Competitions" section. The new amendments are highlighted in yellow in the 2019 ITTF Handbook. I'll provide the links to the handbooks here:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 2:23pm
Originally posted by apacible apacible wrote:

The addition of this section in the 2019 ITTF Handbook, which applies to the Olympic Games, was only a recent amendment done during the Board of Directors meeting during the 2019 World Table Tennis Championships. It was actually Proposition 21 on the Board of Directors meeting agenda:

Olympic Competition
"4.5.2.3. Players of the same Association shall be separated according to 3.6.3.1 and 3.6.3.3 3.6.3.4 and 3.6.3.5 only in preliminary rounds but not in further rounds."

In the document, this was cited as the rationale for the amendment. 
"Rationale: The ITTF World Ranking should be the main criteria for Olympic Draws."


I don't have a definite answer yet on whether the amendment to the ITTF handbook means that the upcoming 2020 Olympics has abolished the separation by association rule, and we should wait for a clarification from ITTF. However, if the rationale for the amendment was to make the Olympic draws mainly based on ITTF World Ranking, then it makes sense to do away with separation by association for the Olympic Games.

Maybe one can also compare and contrast the 2018 ITTF Handbook and the 2019 ITTF Handbook, particularly with regard to the amendments to the "Seeding by Association Nomination" section and the "Olympic Competitions" section. The new amendments are highlighted in yellow in the 2019 ITTF Handbook. I'll provide the links to the handbooks here:

Nice.  So I am back to agreeing with kakapo.  My head is on a swivel today.  Thanks, ITTF!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 2:57pm
When is the last ranking they'll look at for Tokyo seeding? July 2020?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 5:03pm
NOC is enpowered to debar any competitor from entering in Olympic competitions, at their own discretion.

Edited by igorponger - 02/04/2020 at 5:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dream1700 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 7:21pm
Originally posted by Dream1700 Dream1700 wrote:

ML should sit this one out. FZD and XX for Singles!



Edited by Dream1700 - 02/04/2020 at 7:23pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 8:08pm
There's no way a triple WTTC winner like Ma Long is not participating in the Olympics.... the choice is between Xu Xin or Fan Zhendong for the second singles spot, and I think it's 90% going to be Fan Zhendong....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 8:37pm
Ma Long looked out of it v. XX at the German Open. Either he is declining or, another dreadful guess, he knows he is in for sure but wants to promote XX for the 2nd spot because he is far more afraid of FZD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/04/2020 at 9:28pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

There's no way a triple WTTC winner like Ma Long is not participating in the Olympics.... the choice is between Xu Xin or Fan Zhendong for the second singles spot, and I think it's 90% going to be Fan Zhendong....

If FZD wont play in tokyo his next chance would be at 28 yo but I think ma long is not playing at full because he s afraid of getting injured,zjk was not playing well before london


Edited by mykonos96 - 02/04/2020 at 10:11pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Voids.Q Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2020 at 12:39am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by reflecx reflecx wrote:

Originally posted by kakapo kakapo wrote:

That is exactly what I wrote: only the players ranked 1 and 2 are sure to be in different half of the table .
 
And "not in further rounds" makes it clear: players from the same country may play each other in the rounds after the preliminary one.
 
Or maybe, there is another regulation from the Olympic board which says other thing.


Seeding by Association Nomination

3.6.3.1 Nominated players and pairs of the same Association shall, as far as possible, be separated according to of 3.6.3.3 and 3.6.3.4 unless otherwise stated in the specific regulations for such particular event or group of events.
3.6.3.2 Associations shall list their nominated players and pairs in descending order of playing strength, starting with any players included in the ranking list used for seeding, in the order of that list.
3.6.3.3 The  entries  ranked  1  and  2  shall  be  drawn  into  different  halves  and  those ranked 3 and 4 into quarters other than those occupied by the first two.

"The entries ranked 1 and 2" should be referring to each association's no.1 and 2, not world ranked 1 & 2.

That makes sense.  If there are only two players from an association, as is the case with the Olympics, and they are both in the main draw, then they are seeded in opposite halves.

This makes no sense at all. It says "those ranked 3 and 4 into quarters [...]" but each association only has 2 players at most. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kakapo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/05/2020 at 1:40am
That is because this rule is also for world championship.
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