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    Posted: 02/06/2020 at 2:10pm
How does the rating systems in table tennis compare to where it came from ...chess
How does ratings systems in various sports like tennis etc compare to table tennis.
I remember few years ago some guy was going totally nuts about how great the bridge scoring system was etc. and why they should adopt that to table tennis etc

If the rating central is free, why would someone use or join USATT ?
Why not run unsanctioned tournaments and simply submit results to rating Central ?
In fact, if you are running a two stage round robin, do you even need ratings ? 


Sorry , maybe too many questions and should be in different threads but they also seem to inter-related, so I combined them 


Edited by WangZiomin - 02/06/2020 at 2:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2020 at 3:35pm
Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

If the rating central is free, why would someone use or join USATT ?
USATT is the official sanctioning organization for TT in the US.  Without a national organization, every club could make up it's own rules/regulations/standards.  How would that work?

Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

Why not run unsanctioned tournaments and simply submit results to rating Central ?
There are clubs/leagues that do that.

Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

In fact, if you are running a two stage round robin, do you even need ratings ? 
Without ratings, how do you seed the players?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangZiomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2020 at 6:33pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:


Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

In fact, if you are running a two stage round robin, do you even need ratings ? 
Without ratings, how do you seed the players?

Thanks for your reply.
In the first stage of round robin the each group consists of players of all skill levels. Usually you know the approximate ratings but it does not matter that much. It is not like 5 players rated 2000 will end up in one group and 5 players rated about 1200 will end up in another group.

In the second stage, the top 2 or 3 finishers are grouped together (Call it Elite Division or A Division). Next 2 or 3 finishers are grouped together (Call it Advanced Division or B Division) . The next 2 or 3 finishers are grouped together in Intermediate Division or C division. The bottom 2 or 3 finishers are grouped in D Division. 
Each Division can also be divided into 2 or 3 or 4 groups etc and winners move onto a single elimination or something. 

In the age Divisions or Championship divisions it works more or less like this. Yes ratings do help but I do not see the need for it (or USATT) even in 3 star tournaments.

It is also not like the USATT ratings or Ratings central ratings are a secret or they will sue you if they can prove you used it LOL

I know I will get flamed like crazy for hating on USATT but USATT is bad bad bad and useless especially now based on how USOC fired the entire board. 

Can it get any worse than that ?   Well on second thought yes , with USATT they will prove me wrong and prove they are much worse.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangZiomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2020 at 6:45pm
Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:

Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

If the rating central is free, why would someone use or join USATT ?
USATT is the official sanctioning organization for TT in the US.  Without a national organization, every club could make up it's own rules/regulations/standards.  How would that work?


A competing amateur association independent of USOC maybe ? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/06/2020 at 8:38pm
A competing association makes economic sense if the ngb trophy is the goal, that means a very aggressive approach shadowing all major US events with more prize money to quickly smoother the zombiful remnants of usatt.
Rating central has a major role to play since the usatt rating system is the golden goose, fed by usa players evaluating and sometimes identifying themselves through the provided numbers (no judgement here).
I am not sure about what deal could Joola and/or Butterfly USA get into, in conjunction with David Marcus of course. Joola alone? meh... but with Butterfly USA? if both dive together with the support of rating central, many will follow and the ngb ripe trophy will gently fall. Waiting means the fruit keeps rotting on the tree.
Can those people transcend any hypothetical grudge that freezes everything in a discussion and do real business? at the next level up? It's now or never people. Even the threat of it could do something, like taking control of the remains for example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangZiomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 2:26am
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

A competing association makes economic sense if the ngb trophy is the goal, 
Why does becoming the NGB be the goal ?
USATT can keep it 
The new association simply provides free ratings etc just o promote the sport among amateurs

It is very annoying when people are being obsessed with being an NGB. It is just a namesake
Who the hell cares ?
 

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

means a very aggressive approach shadowing all major US events with more prize money to quickly smoother the zombiful remnants of usatt.
Why does it have to be a carbon copy of USATT ?
It can be different with goals to promote amateur competition. No big or even any prize money is needed


Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

, like taking control of the remains for example.
No need to take over USATT really . They can continue with USOC pursuing a stupid medal.
The new association can just promote the sport among amateurs with different modified rules.
Of course I know it is is hard when amateur psychos are obsessed with worshipping professional players and trying to blindly copy the style & equipment of the pros 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 3:07am
The people running things that complicated will have a full time job, they need to make a living out of it and the rating system, major US events are the main money makers. Nothing will be done without those 3. A buddies association? sure. I'm all for it but that means the whole is weakened. I still believe in a national endeavor to bring a world champ and an olympic champ and I don't want to separate anything. The grassroots must feed the champs in one community. That model is working all around the place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 7:34am
Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

A competing association makes economic sense if the ngb trophy is the goal, 
Why does becoming the NGB be the goal ?
USATT can keep it 
The new association simply provides free ratings etc just o promote the sport among amateurs

It is very annoying when people are being obsessed with being an NGB. It is just a namesake
Who the hell cares ?
 

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

means a very aggressive approach shadowing all major US events with more prize money to quickly smoother the zombiful remnants of usatt.
Why does it have to be a carbon copy of USATT ?
It can be different with goals to promote amateur competition. No big or even any prize money is needed


Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

, like taking control of the remains for example.
No need to take over USATT really . They can continue with USOC pursuing a stupid medal.
The new association can just promote the sport among amateurs with different modified rules.
Of course I know it is is hard when amateur psychos are obsessed with worshipping professional players and trying to blindly copy the style & equipment of the pros 

Thank you for your comments.  I will repeat what I advocated previously: the best first and next target for organizing non-USATT-affiliated players is the existing club players so situated.  They are right next to us; they are our friends; they are right there.  I support any strategy that moves these dedicated table tennis players into some kind of organized structure that they see as beneficial to them.  The very large registration base in Germany is due to the highly effective league system they have in place.  The leagues are seen as valuable for these club players.  They are registered.

In the U.S., this club player contingent is, on the American table tennis scale, a very large number of players.  Given the correct approach, they are highly susceptible to an organized competition structure offering.  In so doing, a self-perpetuating club-level culture will be created that strongly promotes new players joining in the popular local competition.  

Today, there are thousands of players participating in club leagues that have no association outside of the specific club.  With the capture and usage of just a small amount of demographic information, such as age and gender, a full statistical representation may be established that promulgates city, county, state, and national player statistics of the type players would respond to favorably.  This statistical information may be used to the benefit of the players in a number of ways, including scaled rankings and the development of competitions that are inclusive of broader geographic areas.

What, in the bottom line, is so attractive about the league system is its reliable frequency and low cost.  Very good matches are there for you!  It is this that has the highest appeal.  

Finally, many of these players have kids.  Introducing these young players to competition via the leagues is a perfect situation for them, with their parents also engaged.

Thanks again.

Donn
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 1:19pm
@DonnOlsen: I think it is very important to properly define and distinguish the term "League" as it is used in Europe vis-a-vis USA. 

"Leagues" in Europe are team events that are played not unlike what we know from soccer, i.e., a number of teams (3-person, 4-person, w/wo doubles - there are many iterations) that play in a division (Country-wide division A, B, C and so on; regional division A, B, C and so on; age-capped divisions (U10, U12, U14, U18) again Nation-level all the way down to regional level (think smaller state level). Team matches are played 1-2 per week, typically during the work-week. This is a concept that is presently utterly unlikely to succeed in the US, outside perhaps the most densely populated areas, since the number and geographic density of TT players simply is too low (NYC, the Bay area, LA, Washington DC a small number of other cities, each might be able to sustain viable "European-like" leagues, but not, for example, Seattle or Portland).

"Leagues" in the US are, as we know, mini-Singles tournaments, typically based on tiers across all age groups. Short of sanctioned tournaments (and even those are challenging to participate in for the many of us not living in a major metropolitan area), the US-type of non-sanctioned leagues are the main competitive format. And it is this format, that the USATT, de facto, has diminished the value of by implementing their new rating strategy.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WangZiomin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 1:23pm
Originally posted by DonnOlsen DonnOlsen wrote:


Finally, many of these players have kids.  Introducing these young players to competition via the leagues is a perfect situation for them, with their parents also engaged.

Donn

I agree that the line between kids wanting to be pros and others (parents) who are amateurs is blurred.
But it seems that USATT is excessively focused on pursuit of an Olympic medal.  If there was a competing amateur association USATT will think twice before making key decisions such as maybe not use membership fees to just promotes kids dreams. If USOC wants to control USATT they must pay for it separately. . Currently USATT is a USOC puppet for all the wrong reasons.
Then of course having two associations will have its own set of problems.  Keep in mind however that any country can have more than one ITTF affiliate. Though this is unlikely to happen, ITTF affiliation or being called an NGB is not a big deal.   

Yes Germany has lot of players in leagues but in USA it is not considered a sport. Few want to pay to play in a league let alone tournaments. The free USATT league system was a good start but looks like USATT wants to charge for that now. 
If an amateur association gave free ratings processing with its own rules it may spur membership in both both associations. It is like BurgerKing & McDonalds & Wendy's wanting to be next to each other   


Edited by WangZiomin - 02/07/2020 at 1:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 1:28pm
When I was playing back in Denmark, I lived on a mid-sized island (approx. 50 miles across, with ~250,000 people). This region, had around ~30 clubs (there would be a club with at least 20 regular players in every town with a population of 5000 population or more; and some clubs would have 100s of players). There would be at least 100, if not 200 teams - across different tiers and age levels participating - in "leagues", driving less than an hour during mid-week to play a team match at another club. Typically 1-2 matches per week, Sep-Dec, Jan-Mar. 

By comparison, Spokane, WA, a city of ~200,000 has one TT club with, at best, ~50 regulars across a wide range of skill levels. The nearest club? Moscow Idaho, 1h 45 min away with ~20 regulars. The next-nearest club? Tricities, 2h 30 min away with 10-20 regulars. I realize, we are living in a fairly remote area, but I strongly doubt that there is sufficient density of TT players anywhere in the US, except for metro areas as discussed above.     


Edited by patrickhrdlicka - 02/07/2020 at 1:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 2:27pm
The leagues system in France and Germany works great because the cost of travelling from a club to another is within reasonable limits. I think in France the maximum would be around 8 hours of driving and there is the faster train for those extremes, a minibus is enough for other matches.
It could happen in the USA but at the regional level only. California could have their own leagues system, same for the NY region. The Northwest would combine the Washington state, Oregon state and British Columbia communities and that could give 9 teams, possibly 3 for each, giving 16 matches per season (6 months?).


Edited by stiltt - 02/07/2020 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 2:34pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The leagues system in France and Germany works great because the cost of travelling from a club to another is within reasonable limits. I think in France the maximum would be around 8 hours of driving and there is the faster train for those extremes, a minibus is enough for other matches.
It could happen in the USA but at the regional level only. California could have their own leagues system, same for the NY region. The Northwest would combine the Washington state, Oregon state and British Columbia communities and that could give 9 teams, possibly 3 for each, giving 16 matches per season (6 months?).
Patrickhrdlicka since Stilt didn’t include Idaho in his Northwest grouping your state grouping will be Idaho, Montana and Wyoming! 😂😂
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 2:44pm
Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The leagues system in France and Germany works great because the cost of travelling from a club to another is within reasonable limits. I think in France the maximum would be around 8 hours of driving and there is the faster train for those extremes, a minibus is enough for other matches.
It could happen in the USA but at the regional level only. California could have their own leagues system, same for the NY region. The Northwest would combine the Washington state, Oregon state and British Columbia communities and that could give 9 teams, possibly 3 for each, giving 16 matches per season (6 months?).
Patrickhrdlicka since Stilt didn’t include Idaho in his Northwest grouping your state grouping will be Idaho, Montana and Wyoming! 😂😂

No worries - I will just purchase a private jet for convenient travel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GMan4911 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

Originally posted by GMan4911 GMan4911 wrote:


Originally posted by WangZiomin WangZiomin wrote:

In fact, if you are running a two stage round robin, do you even need ratings ? 
Without ratings, how do you seed the players?

Thanks for your reply.
In the first stage of round robin the each group consists of players of all skill levels. Usually you know the approximate ratings but it does not matter that much. It is not like 5 players rated 2000 will end up in one group and 5 players rated about 1200 will end up in another group.
.
.
.
Not always.  What if you get entries from another region/country? Or someone who's never played tournaments?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 4:12pm
Originally posted by patrickhrdlicka patrickhrdlicka wrote:

Originally posted by Vince64 Vince64 wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

The leagues system in France and Germany works great because the cost of travelling from a club to another is within reasonable limits. I think in France the maximum would be around 8 hours of driving and there is the faster train for those extremes, a minibus is enough for other matches.
It could happen in the USA but at the regional level only. California could have their own leagues system, same for the NY region. The Northwest would combine the Washington state, Oregon state and British Columbia communities and that could give 9 teams, possibly 3 for each, giving 16 matches per season (6 months?).
Patrickhrdlicka since Stilt didn’t include Idaho in his Northwest grouping your state grouping will be Idaho, Montana and Wyoming! 😂😂

No worries - I will just purchase a private jet for convenient travel.
well...Patrickhrdlicka always mentions Spokane, WA as the location of his home club. 

For those who do not know the region, the biggest Idaho community is the Coeur d'Alène area, right across the state line. They would naturally fall in the NW region like Spokane, same for Moscow and Boise.

I still have to visit lake Coeur d'Alène btw. For 6 years I had coworkers there I was daily interacting with and I am attracted by all the natural wonders and activities that they were good at describing when we had dinner or during small talk before and after online meetings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Patrickhrdlicka always mentions Spokane, WA as the location of his home club.

Actually, he doesn't Smile.

You are one google search from figuring out where I am located.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 5:09pm
Sorry, I mixed my pedals, probably due to the fact you are familiar with Spokane club, close to it and you may have mentioned them for leagues or tourneys. Proshu proshcheniya za putanitsu Big smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickhrdlicka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2020 at 5:20pm
Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Sorry, I mixed my pedals, probably due to the fact you are familiar with Spokane club, close to it and you may have mentioned them for leagues or tourneys. Proshu proshcheniya za putanitsu Big smile


Tongue
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