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Fan Zhendong vs Liam Pitchford, Men's Singles Final, 2020 Qatar Open

Event: ITTF World Tour - 2020 Qatar Open
Location: Doha, Qatar  
Date: 2020-03-03 - 2020-03-08
Round: Men's Singles Final
Players: Fan Zhendong, Liam Pitchford
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 10:28am
Originally posted by chongqinghotpot chongqinghotpot wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

you are lucky you are not talking about HT or you will be called a hater

I learned my lesson when I posted that I thought Kanak was not one of the top 30 players on the planet.  People assume I hate Kanak or think he is terrible.  This is not the case.  Now I worry people will think I hate WCQ or think he is terrible.  This is also not the case.  Even with a disclaimer it might be too dangerous to comment on HT or WCT so I will refrain, for now. 

The issue with Kanak is more nuanced than that.  I watch a lot of table tennis.  Maybe not just letting the stats determine my evaluation of the players biases me.  If you watch the players as much as I do let me know (and no I don't think it is required or good to do so).  What gets me about Kanak is that everyone I speak to is more intimately familiar with his failures than his successes because the people who should be most excited about him (Americans) show very little familiarity with his results.

I was speaking to a friend at my club and he left that Kanak was behing both Gustavo Tsuboi and Hugo Calderano.  I had to tell him that Kanak usually beats Guatavo in recent times and that he has gotten closer and closer to getting his first win vs Hugo.  The issue is not whether he is top 50 or top 30 or top 100.  The issue in my view is that Americans are just not knowledgeable enough and excited about the achievements of their best players.

After barely losing to Gustavo in Puerto Rico while clearly struggling, Kanak played Gustavo in the German League and beat Gustavo 3-1.  Someone called that a good win.  At this point, it is nothing unusual for Kanak.  Yet we are still stuck in this view of American TT as only something non professional kids play.
I am an American and have watched Kanak playing since he was 8 or 9, and am very familiar with his achievements nationally as well as internationally. Even though  I am very proud of him, as soon as I mentioned his lack of power in FH, I am labeled as a Kanak hater. I guess some of his fans just can’t handle an honest opinion, or worse, the truth. You know what, now I don’t really care to be a Kanak hater anymore. I still don’t think he will be a real top world player (top 5) unless he dramatically improves his FH. 

Many *legendary* players *never* reach the top 5 so I am happy you have such a high standard for Kanak - Mizutani for example has only hit the WR of 4 once and I think Harimoto is barely there.  Freitas I think peaked at 7.  Maze peaked at 8.  Gauzy and Niwa have never been there.  Karakasevic was never even in the top 20.  Neither was Bojan Tokic, and people will never tell you that those aren't world class players.  Lack of power on the forehand is one aspect of the game, there are many good players with relatively less powerful forehands, the one that comes to mind for me is Lin Gaoyuan and another is Koki Niwa.  

Quadri Aruna has a relatively crappy backhand, and he managed to get to the quarter finals of the Olympics with that backhand.  Even imbalanced styles survive in table tennis, the issue is when we allow that to exclusively define our appreciation of a player rather than the results that show the story is much more interesting than that.  

Kanak's overall game lacks the kind of power that you would expect for top level table tennis but this was a criticism of CCY  as well and CCY has had a great career and is Kanak's role model.  Kanak has beaten and outperformed many of the European players with the more powerful forehands at this stage of his career.  Yet you hear many people point out that this European player who Kanak has reliably outperformed has more potential than Kanak just because his forehand is more powerful than Kanak.  Which means that Kanak must be doing a lot of other things that that player doesn't do but which don't get appreciated because...  Kanak doesn't fit the description.

And I think that is the issue people have with Kanak - he doesn't fit the description.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/07/2020 at 10:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 11:01am
The only legit criticism of Kanak is that he has a WR advantage due to being NAican.  But somehow I never hear peeps say Hugo benefits from the same advantage from SA.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 11:12am
Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by stiltt stiltt wrote:

I called it 3 years ago when he was still 16 yo



I checked him  when he was 14
thread link?
he can't - according to JW he was writing under another name back then 


I had another name but not for backing my opinions as the poster we all kn now kinda  password didnt work but since 2014 I  msuch a wcq fan  the kid is a prodigy maybe he can be the fist male lefty champion as CNT coaches dislike lefty players

Firts tournament of wcq I recall  was junior circuit in 2014 and  a tournament in argentina pretty nasty play for such a young age

Btw tom kinda of leftdown you take JW words
you really think I take JW seriously?  He said you and I are the same person.


Let him alone in his " theories" maybe you can find him in a some area 51 discussion forum
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jfolsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 11:24am
So XX plays men's doubles and China wins. XX doesn't play mixed doubles and China loses to Japan. Guess what XX will be doing in the Olympics, presuming they are held.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pdotec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 11:30am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Am I the only one who finds it crazy that a player that is possibly the best in the world is warming the bench for the CNT?


Possibly the best in the world? Based on what results?


And for the reading impaired:

1) Just because I dont think WCQ is the best player in the world, I do not hate him
2) Just because I dont think WCQ is the best player in the world, I do not think he is a terrible player

Thank you
you are lucky you are not talking about HT or you will be called a hater

While he was suspended, he was told he would be allowed to participate I  the Marvelous 12 only if he won the trials without losing a match.  He went 20-2, and won the trials but of course didn't get to play.  The lid has had a very high level for a while and anyone who watches him a lot can see that there is something special about the quality and pace of his play because he does it with extremely high consistency.  

It will be interesting to see how things pan out for him over the next few months.

At 19 yrs old WCQ is the leading player to compete against TH Lin Truls 3-4 years from now
when XX, ML, FZ are past their prime.  He is the future of Chinese dominance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mykonos96 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 12:56pm
Originally posted by pdotec pdotec wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Am I the only one who finds it crazy that a player that is possibly the best in the world is warming the bench for the CNT?


Possibly the best in the world? Based on what results?


And for the reading impaired:

1) Just because I dont think WCQ is the best player in the world, I do not hate him
2) Just because I dont think WCQ is the best player in the world, I do not think he is a terrible player

Thank you
you are lucky you are not talking about HT or you will be called a hater

While he was suspended, he was told he would be allowed to participate I  the Marvelous 12 only if he won the trials without losing a match.  He went 20-2, and won the trials but of course didn't get to play.  The lid has had a very high level for a while and anyone who watches him a lot can see that there is something special about the quality and pace of his play because he does it with extremely high consistency.  

It will be interesting to see how things pan out for him over the next few months.

At 19 yrs old WCQ is the leading player to compete against TH Lin Truls 3-4 years from now
when XX, ML, FZ are past their prime.  He is the future of Chinese dominance.

FZ passes his prime based on what? He s 22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 3:46pm
Originally posted by mykonos96 mykonos96 wrote:

Originally posted by pdotec pdotec wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tom tom wrote:

Originally posted by Lightspin Lightspin wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Am I the only one who finds it crazy that a player that is possibly the best in the world is warming the bench for the CNT?


Possibly the best in the world? Based on what results?


And for the reading impaired:

1) Just because I dont think WCQ is the best player in the world, I do not hate him
2) Just because I dont think WCQ is the best player in the world, I do not think he is a terrible player

Thank you
you are lucky you are not talking about HT or you will be called a hater

While he was suspended, he was told he would be allowed to participate I  the Marvelous 12 only if he won the trials without losing a match.  He went 20-2, and won the trials but of course didn't get to play.  The lid has had a very high level for a while and anyone who watches him a lot can see that there is something special about the quality and pace of his play because he does it with extremely high consistency.  

It will be interesting to see how things pan out for him over the next few months.

At 19 yrs old WCQ is the leading player to compete against TH Lin Truls 3-4 years from now
when XX, ML, FZ are past their prime.  He is the future of Chinese dominance.

FZ passes his prime based on what? He s 22

poor reading comprehension
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hleett Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Chuang has been in great form lately. With lin yunju, taiwan is a threat

Taiwan has been a strong TT nation since the mid 90s. 


My point is that Chuang is back from the drama that had him away from the team last year, and I don't think they've had two players of this caliber in a while. If a third player can hold his weight they could seriously contend for silver or bronze.
Notice HT didn't shake hands with CCY after losing the match? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 5:48pm
Originally posted by hleett hleett wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by idk idk wrote:

Chuang has been in great form lately. With lin yunju, taiwan is a threat

Taiwan has been a strong TT nation since the mid 90s. 


My point is that Chuang is back from the drama that had him away from the team last year, and I don't think they've had two players of this caliber in a while. If a third player can hold his weight they could seriously contend for silver or bronze.
Notice HT didn't shake hands with CCY after losing the match? 


Not sure what that has to do with the post you are quoting but nobody is shaking hands in this tournament because of COVID19.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 7:24pm
who is taking FZD over WCQ and CM over Ito or vice versa?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lightspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 7:28pm
I will take FZD over WCQ and XX over Pitchford with XX winning the title.  I will also take CM over MI. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chongqinghotpot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/07/2020 at 11:10pm
I would bet my money on FZD and CM
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 4:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 4:26am
if Xu Xin beats FZD, it will be the first time I will listen to the fans who want him to play Olympics aingles.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 4:32am
well...1-1 now v. pitchford.  that point pitchford lost at 1-1 8-6 was crushing and could have led to 2-0 but the pitch hung in there, 1-1, all is possible.

Edited by stiltt - 03/08/2020 at 4:33am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 4:42am
So many unforced errors from Pitchford, he wins the 3rd game, because xx had many too but xx has more experience to fix it so it dactually dow not look good for pitchford if he does not fix the missing of stuff he knows well.

a nice feature in that match: the short game is of a super high level on both sides.


Edited by stiltt - 03/08/2020 at 4:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:04am
Pitchford is playing his real game in that 5th game. Trailing 7-8 he missed an easy one (for him) after a godly shot the point before. At 9-9 he went for it again but missed the difficult  shot in extension along the line at 10-9, the one shot he could not miss. but he hung in there again!

3-2 Pitchford, A big upset is possible now. "gauzy did it, I can do it too." seems to be the fuel that drives the pitch.


Edited by stiltt - 03/08/2020 at 5:04am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:08am
the pitch is not choking right from the start in the 6th gam, it's just he has to take BIG risks. He is lucky XX is VERY VERY nervous now, xx thinks of Gauzy and that might paralyse him. Pitchford has never been in a better position to close it. 

It's now or never. 3-2 4-3
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:14am
to me, when the pitch does not choke and does not miss the easy stuff, he is top 5 in the world!

I can't believe it, he did it!!!

NOTE: Pitchford's short game is out of this world, he never got dominated there and that was one of the big keys of his match.


Edited by stiltt - 03/08/2020 at 5:15am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:18am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

if Xu Xin beats FZD, it will be the first time I will listen to the fans who want him to play Olympics aingles.

Oh well, I guess that XX for singles party just got pooped.  Great performance by Pitchford. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:19am
pitchford is such an underrated player. Great performance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:21am
What a crushing career moment for xx. I am happy for Pitchford because I always liked his crazy confident bh wrist snap but to see one match destroying all hopes for XX singles Olympic run is very sad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:24am
There are a few guys out there who can beat xx for sure, Gauzi, Pitchford  Harimoto, Hugo, Dima. Just to name a few. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:30am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

There are a few guys out there who can beat xx for sure, Gauzi, Pitchford  Harimoto, Hugo, Dima. Just to name a few. 

Of all the people you listed the only ones that have actually beaten XX are Gauzy and Pitchford.  Let's not get ahead of ourselves.   Pitchford and Gauzy do things on the forehand that those other players never do.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/08/2020 at 5:31am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jackwong23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:32am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

There are a few guys out there who can beat xx for sure, Gauzi, Pitchford  Harimoto, Hugo, Dima. Just to name a few. 

Of all the people you listed the only ones that have actually beaten XX are Gauzy and Pitchford.  Let's not get ahead of ourselves.   Pitchford and Gauzy do things on the forehand that those other players never do.

True, but Hari was very very close to beating xx last time, had a few match points. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fortunateluck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:34am
Wow!

As per Adam, Pitchford shows why he is in the small number of players in "I can beat the Chinese" group.

Good performance for LP, but the Chinese coach looked like he was sleeping and unenthusiastic. The coach is supposed to motivate the player, but XX just never seemed like he was into it, meaning he douldn't bring his A-game. ...But, many times that is how one goes down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 5:52am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

There are a few guys out there who can beat xx for sure, Gauzi, Pitchford  Harimoto, Hugo, Dima. Just to name a few. 

Of all the people you listed the only ones that have actually beaten XX are Gauzy and Pitchford.  Let's not get ahead of ourselves.   Pitchford and Gauzy do things on the forehand that those other players never do.
Everybody is afraid of XX's fh but it's amazing how Pitchford went there with no complex, meaning along the line and harder for his own fh, but unpredictable so the roi was higher, especially when XX was naturally positioned a bit towards his bh side; also more combos off the bounce worked than not. The short game was perfect and the game plan was of high quality. Bravo to team Pitchford.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 6:08am
Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by jackwong23 jackwong23 wrote:

There are a few guys out there who can beat xx for sure, Gauzi, Pitchford  Harimoto, Hugo, Dima. Just to name a few. 

Of all the people you listed the only ones that have actually beaten XX are Gauzy and Pitchford.  Let's not get ahead of ourselves.   Pitchford and Gauzy do things on the forehand that those other players never do.

True, but Hari was very very close to beating xx last time, had a few match points. 

Close but no cigar.  But the name on that list that really offended me was Dima.  Maybe if you hadn't posted him, I might have ignored you.  But no XX is very hard to beat and even people that have actually beaten him once or twice may never do it again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 6:19am
Originally posted by BRS BRS wrote:

The only legit criticism of Kanak is that he has a WR advantage due to being NAican.  But somehow I never hear peeps say Hugo benefits from the same advantage from SA.

All non-Asian and non-European players have it to some degree.  But Hugo has beaten FZD and Boll and thus gets a pass.  He also has power on both sides and his athleticism fits the description.  Kanak still doesn't have a win (and for some a playing style) that clearly fits the description. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/08/2020 at 8:59am
did anybody else notice there are no Stiga commercials before the ittv stream starts? on a Platinum event like the Qatar open, it's strange!
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Fan Zhendong vs Liam Pitchford, Men's Singles Final, 2020 Qatar Open

Event: ITTF World Tour - 2020 Qatar Open
Location: Doha, Qatar  
Date: 2020-03-03 - 2020-03-08
Round: Men's Singles Final
Players: Fan Zhendong, Liam Pitchford

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