Ambiguous spin

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   Scenario:

Right hander serving from his backhand side to another right hander's backhand side.

Serve:

Forehand backspin serve combined with clockwise corkscrew.

I'm not a particularly good player, so maybe I've completely screwed this up.  It seems to me that this serve would result in a completely ambiguous spin if returned using a righthander's backhand.  Clockwise corkscrew on its own would behave as if it had mild topspin if returned using the backhand and mild backspin if returned using the forehand.  However, given that the corkscrew is mixed with backspin, it becomes very difficult to tell which spin is stronger (cork or backspin) from the backhand side.  The forehand side is easy.  It's definitely backspin as the cork reinforces the backspin.  

How do you return a serve like this if it comes in short and worse, if the guy is able to serve short and fast so that you don't have time to judge the spin based on the balls' flight?

A similar situation can also be created by serving using the backhand (anti-clockwise cork combined with topspin going to a righthander's backhand).

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chris06 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 32	Post Options Post Reply Quote chris06 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Ambiguous spin Posted: 02/16/2008 at 11:53pm
	Scenario: Right hander serving from his backhand side to another right hander's backhand side. Serve: Forehand backspin serve combined with clockwise corkscrew. I'm not a particularly good player, so maybe I've completely screwed this up. It seems to me that this serve would result in a completely ambiguous spin if returned using a righthander's backhand. Clockwise corkscrew on its own would behave as if it had mild topspin if returned using the backhand and mild backspin if returned using the forehand. However, given that the corkscrew is mixed with backspin, it becomes very difficult to tell which spin is stronger (cork or backspin) from the backhand side. The forehand side is easy. It's definitely backspin as the cork reinforces the backspin. How do you return a serve like this if it comes in short and worse, if the guy is able to serve short and fast so that you don't have time to judge the spin based on the balls' flight? A similar situation can also be created by serving using the backhand (anti-clockwise cork combined with topspin going to a righthander's backhand).

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gekogark1212 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Gold Member Joined: 05/06/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 1121	Post Options Post Reply Quote gekogark1212 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02/17/2008 at 12:05am
	hit the spinning axle....ie, try to hit exactly front or just below the ball. Hard to explain, perhaps I'll see if I can find someone to serve it and I'll vid record it. But yes, it's just keeping your mind clear and just returning the ball 1st, as opposed to play a riskier shot.
	(\__/) (='.'=) But there's no sense crying over every mistake, (")_(") You just keep on trying till you run out of cake.

stiltt Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1026	Post Options Post Reply Quote stiltt Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02/17/2008 at 1:29am
	If you return a corkscrew serve in the spinning axle as said in the previous post then the spin does not make the ball grip anything. If it does it will be in some sort of drilling process that you can control even better as that drilling process makes the ball stays in the sponge a bit longer. Can you picture that? Contact anywhere else close to that central point and you are still ok if you consider the ball as a right handed pendulum side/topspin serve (which it is when not perfect corkscrew BYW). Too far away and you are in trouble.
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chris06 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Member Joined: 10/10/2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 32	Post Options Post Reply Quote chris06 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02/17/2008 at 12:24pm
	Sorry, I'm having a hard time visualizing this. If it were pure corkscrew or mostly corkscrew, I see what you mean (i.e. just contact the middle of the ball and hit it straight through as if it had no spin). However, the backspin mixed into it means that the axis the ball is rotating on is tilted a little upward. I'm not good with pictures etc. I'm hoping somebody would be able to post a visual explanation.

stiltt Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Assistant Admin Joined: 07/15/2007 Location: Location Status: Offline Points: 1026	Post Options Post Reply Quote stiltt Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02/17/2008 at 12:58pm
	if the corkscrew serve is not well done you end up more with a side topspin serve than underspin
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GenomicsKnight Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Gold Member Joined: 05/27/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1962	Post Options Post Reply Quote GenomicsKnight Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: 02/17/2008 at 11:00pm
	@chris06 My suggestions might seem a bit too simplified, give it a try anyway. If it's long, loop it. If it's short, flip it. However, in order to make a successful return, you need to position yourself well to execute the return stroke (whether is a loop or flip). This is an offensive type of return. If you want to do a defensive return (short drop or push with spin), you need to be able to read the spin correctly.