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Ban Junk Rubbers! |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Agreed. I'm not a chopper, but I would think the in-and-out movement of choppers against short drop shots is the most physically exerting part of table tennis: |
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Matt Pimple
Gold Member Joined: 12/03/2012 Location: Phoenix Status: Offline Points: 1995 |
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I had a chance to practice with Maria and she certainly does not look that athletic but she is pretty quick and anticipates the balls very well. Besides that she does not make any mistakes (you have to earn every point) and she changes spins very well; she is a legit >2200 player. By the way, she chops with anti on forehand and inverted on backhand. I think it is pretty impressive for a lady at her age to still play at that level regardless of style of athleticism. |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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No, that's not the ONLY thing you are saying. The evidence is in the comments you make below. It is these other things that people disagree with.
Waldner won Silver at the Olympics at 35 (Joo's current age) and fourth four years later.
If your opponent isn't savvy enough to move you in and out and all you do is loop against their chop, then yes, you will expend more energy. That's why you generally want to play drop shots and pushes against choppers. Aside from it being a good tactic to force them to move more before hitting, it is a good overall strategy for you to conserve energy as well as cost your opponent energy. Interview HeavySpin and have him explain why he abandoned chopping.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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mhnh007
Platinum Member Joined: 11/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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This is the answer. There is no need to ban it, just play better . BTW - is all PIPs consider junk, or just those LP OX?
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Samsonov is also older than Joo as well.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Let's forget the footwork - the whole point of the chopper running all the way back there is to be able to have time to chop and use your pace against you. So what is the point of continually looping the ball to where the chopper is most comfortable? Bring him to where he doesn't want to be with short loops and drop shots then hit the ball past him if necessary.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wilkinru
Silver Member Joined: 04/28/2015 Location: Las Vegas Status: Offline Points: 604 |
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I backhand looped the shit out of those balls off the side of the table. Against a better pushblocker I might lose. I just served deep fast and a bit high with light backspin...he would always put it to my backhand and it would be mostly a floater that was pretty high to kill. With his serve, again I would do my best to backspin it back - goal was my first "hit" to be hitting a light topspin ball. I play against pips a bit and I'll admit I have trouble keeping track of the spin after the 5th ball. That's why 3rd and 5th ball is even more important here. Sadly I have not seen this guy lately. I do hope he comes back and wants to actually play some table tennis - err as he put it "try to do some hitting". Also I have all of the respect in the world for choppers. Long pips short pips inverted. That's tough work. I actually am interested in learning chopping myself. Edited by wilkinru - 08/12/2015 at 7:23pm |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Speaking as a chopper emeritus, you have in general a pretty good strategy. A chopper, particularly a long distance chopper as I once was, has to have strong legs, good endurance (running, playing tennis and singing helped me), quick and efficient side to side movement, and especially quick up to the table and then back to comfortable chopping distance movement. You can't forget the footwork. It's vital, whether it be dashing closer to the table then coming to a screeching halt to return a short loop (or in my heyday topspin) or dropshot or retreating to retrieve a fastball deep to the opposite side of where you just were. Don't forget--any modern defender armed with a forehand loop drive or classic defender who knows how to pick-hit with a backhand can punish a too short loop or a too high drop shot, as when attacking backspin you are going to be close to the table and may not have time to successfully return his/her counterattack. Still, the 11-point game favors an attacking approach. Defensive players have to be uncommonly consistent, and a mistake in an 11-point came is going to cost you nearly 10 percent of a match, as opposed to nearly 5 percent in a 21-point match. Edited by berndt_mann - 08/12/2015 at 7:18pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Mingez
Beginner Joined: 07/07/2015 Location: DC Status: Offline Points: 7 |
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I just think that you are not paying attention.
First, you are lumping Pushblockers in with choppers. Again, I'll repeat, pushblockers are NOT choppers! Your most basic understanding of what a chopper is appears incorrect. Next, in response to your argument that JSH would not be competing at his age if it were not for chopping. Again, you are incorrect! There are many more advanced-aged attackers competing at a high-level than there are choppers. Examples were already provided. Also, there are WAY more attackers at the club level than choppers who are of advanced age. Just go to your club. Tally the amount of senior citizens playing double inverted. Look at the US open. One of my coaches, Charlene Liu, is over 60 and has been over 2000 since she was a teenager, she won the seniors open at the US open. Her husband is 2200 and is a Cpen attacker with double inverted, together they won the seniors doubles event at the US open. Speaking of the US open, did anyone in the Seniors division even compete as a chopper? I don't think so, not sure, but I don't think so. The lady you site as an example of aged chopping is the exception and not the rule, and I'd gather there are other factors contributing to her high level play other than her material. (I think someone stated some reasons above. So your theory is debunked their...big time. Last, the difference between chopping and looping in terms of stroke exertion is minimal. But the difference is footwork exertion, and core exertion is VAST. It's much harder in terms of calories burned. You can keep telling yourself this isn't so, but you'd be wrong. I work in medicine, and the muscles of legs and core take up the vast majority of your glucose uptake in both daily live, and during an athletic event. Edited by Mingez - 08/13/2015 at 9:05am |
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It's not spin reversal, it's spin continuation...
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BeaverMD
Gold Member Joined: 11/09/2007 Location: Maryland, USA Status: Offline Points: 1897 |
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LOL! Greg, that is pretty good work. Loved it.
Ok, I know you said not to take anyting too seriously but I do want to comment on the portion from 1:30 to 2:00 mark. One was when the friend said "junk rubbers just send back what spin you put on the ball". That is not completely accurate. The spin is returned, yes, but with "interest" so to speak. This additional element from the long pips is what causes the wobble, thus causing mistakes from players not used to them. Also, the friend said "why don't you just stop putting spin on the ball?". Yes, this is a good strategy. But LP can generate some spin ex. side swipe like CWX does to invite the attack. What I'm getting at in pointing out these two comments from the friend is what I notice with players that have no trouble with long pips is they are able to overcome both the spin returned plus the interest. Not just play no spin rallies. Anyway, cool vid. Can't wait for the next one when BeaverMD interviews Waldner
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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This is generally inaccurate. There are many "long" pips out there with different qualities, and more sponge in general tends to allow for more grip than less but the simplest way to tell how much spin something can generate is to do a floor serve or a large stroke with it. You will get largely spinless balls if you serve with real long pips, no matter how much sponge, though there might be enough spin to make the ball not wobble in the air. IF you read some of Greg's articles on long pips (and in fact, the OP video is an excellent tutorial on what it takes to learn to play them), you will see he covers all the major bases on how long pips work. Long pips can add to or reduce spin, but when dealing with heavy spin or even no spin, the ability to change the spin is limited, except from high level players with extremely good touch. The only stroke that can help is a punch/spin killing stroke but even that may not take all the spin off. The "wobble" you referred to is actually caused by killing the spin when a hit/punch stroke is performed with the long pips. The sideswipe strokes from long pips players do just about the same thing as other strokes (add to or reduce spin but leave it largely unchanged). Just like an inverted player can change what he is doing with touch, so can the long-pips player but heavy spin is heavy spin. It's hard to do something to heavy spin close to the table without giving the game way.
Edited by NextLevel - 08/13/2015 at 11:13am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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Mingez, im not gona quote you because you and I live in different worlds. I don't know what you do in medicine, but if you think that chopping a loop is harder than relooping that same chop, you are no good in either medicine or table tennis. This is something very elementary, everybody who has done it can tell you without even understanding what is happening. But it is possible that you are not actually that bad in understanding simple physics, you are just partial to LP chopping, perhaps thats what you yourself do, and are desperately trying to justify and defend it.
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ZingyDNA
Platinum Member Joined: 09/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2373 |
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If both the chopper and the looper stand where they are w/o moving, then it's more energy demanding for the looper in the loop-chop exchange. But that is not the point.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I agree with the bulk of what you posted but disagree with this last paragraph. I routinely drill in both attacking chop with topspin and chopping against loop/topspin (both using hardbat). When the drill does not move the chopper around, it takes more effort and is more tiring for me to do the continued topspin attack. You must drive with your legs and torso and you are typically driving your body weight upward against gravity. The chop stroke drives downward and works with gravity. While the chopper will sometimes have to drop very low and then recover (requiring lots of leg effort against gravity) to get to certain balls, this only happens occasionally. Energy use tends to equalize when the the attacker begins to move the chopper around with ball placement. Now the chopper must begin to cover a significant amount of ground and do it very quickly. The chopper is accelerating his entire body rapidly to cover a moderately large area. And when/if the attacker also begins to mix in pushes and drop shots, it is the chopper who will now be expending the most energy. He will have no shot where he's "resting." Even when pushing, he'll be rushing in to get to the ball in time. Meanwhile the "attacker" does rest with the push and drop shot. So in a match situation, the player who expends the most energy will vary based on tactics. One of the goals of the chopper is to wear down his attacking opponent by making him hit more high energy shots than he wants to or perhaps has trained for. A smart attacker, OTOH, will try to avoid that trap and instead turn the tables on the chopper, running him around as much as possible with angled and drop shots and the judicious use of high effort loops and attacks. Edited by wturber - 08/13/2015 at 3:00pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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As ZingyDNA points out, you keep missing the point. It is not simply about the effort in the stroke. It is about the effort needed to actually employ a game strategy based around chopping or attacking a chopper.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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I personally think it takes way more energy to be the attacker.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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If you expend energy playing a chopper, you had better confirm that the chopper is worth expending the energy. I know too many people who loop repeatedly to choppers who cannot attack. This is fairly ridiculous.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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I think the attacking stroke takes more energy than the chopping stroke, but I think the footwork of the chopper takes much more energy than that of the attacker. Done properly both styles can be very demanding and require a lot of talent. |
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Victor_the_cleaner
Gold Member Joined: 12/26/2014 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 1428 |
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yeah, just listen to a loop/chop rally between two pros. Who goes HUUUH every time? I've never heard a sound from JSH or Masato. I can't quantify this or explain is as well as I want, but the extra footwork is VERY FAR from compensating for lifting a nasty chop. Relooping a LP chop feels like a gym workout. I am not good enough to point my personal experience for evidence, but if any of you can do both LP chops and loop those chops reasonably well for amateur, you know there is no comparison.
And I don't think I am missing points, turber, i addressed the main message in what is probably greater than appropriate detail on page 1. This is one particular item that was challenged separately.
Edited by Victor_the_cleaner - 08/13/2015 at 6:03pm |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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Although I agree with you, it makes sense that the grunting would come from the player who's energy is expended in short bursts. The chopper in theory is expending his energy covering ground. It would sound funny if a chopper grunted, say, on the push off.
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DreiZ
Platinum Member Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2576 |
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I grunt when I block... is that weird?
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Eric Fountain
Super Member Joined: 12/07/2013 Location: Portland, OR Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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It's harder for the attacker to reloop in that one match, but then they go off and play easier matches the other 95% of the time. Meanwhile the chopper is running around their whole existence. Athletic / forehand-dominant J-Pen attackers probably have it worse than anyone.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes, I agree with mts and this is more true the higher level you go. One of the coaches here from China, a chopper, told me they used to train her with multiball drills using two tables pushed together side by side so she had to get used to moving laterally twice as far. I have seen her do it. It is crazy. Offensive players vs. defenders don't just have to expend energy lifting the ball (you can save a lot of that by opening up racket angle anyway) but there is a lot of in and out movement you have to do and it is mentally draining when choppers are good because they can constantly vary spin and these days can attack really well the minute you mess up and get the ball a little too high. However you look at it, table tennis is hard. |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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+1 There is a huge difference in playing one tough match and playing a bunch of tough matches in a tournament.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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If you're going to be an effective chopper, moving as far as two tables pushed side by side isn't so crazy. In fact, particularly against fh sidespin hook loops or a good rpb backhand sidespin loop, you may have to move farther laterally than that, provided there is enough space (frequently there is not) to adequately defend. A good chopper will of course vary spin, and a very good chopper can not only attack a high or slow moving ball, it's the kind of ball he/she is looking for. A close to the table attacker against underspin is not likely to become a capable defender when subject to a sudden counterattack. You do not want, however, to get into a counterattacking duel with an attacker. Do that too often, and you might as well be an attacker yourself. Table tennis is hard. It's harder than most people think. It's been a difficult sport at the elite and world class level for about 85 years. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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