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Beautiful BH technique

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    Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:29am

Watch the first ten seconds, that's the dream right there...such speed, fluidity and timing! 


Edited by blahness - 03/15/2019 at 9:30am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TT newbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:35am
This kid is yet to reach his peak. At 21 or 22 he can be the best player on the planet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vik2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 11:41am
Harimoto's backhand is just amazing. Looking forward to seeing how high this kid climbs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bard romance Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 7:36pm
Originally posted by TT newbie TT newbie wrote:

This kid is yet to reach his peak. At 21 or 22 he can be the best player on the planet.


He's close to it already.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 7:58pm
Anyone voting for Harimoto as the Bronze medalist in Men's singles at the 2019 World Championships?  I know one who is.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maurice101 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 8:47pm
I actually like his forehand. So much knee movement and hip rotation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/15/2019 at 9:32pm
There is nothing I don’t like in his game, I wouldn’t have a clue if I were asked to define a progression plan from where he is. I would probably be sneaky and focus on lifestyle, happiness among people his age in and outside TT, food and drinks, deep tissue massages, cross training with rock climbing and swimming, stretching...
I wonder if contact with nature is important in high level sports training. I imagine a week camping, trekking in national parks can do wonders to the mind of a pressured high level athlete.
How does such a player receive advice from coaches hardly able to fully understand how exceptional he is? It must be so painful to him to listen sometimes :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 1:53pm
I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DonnOlsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 7:16pm
I presume that is one of the players hired from China as his training partner.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 7:46pm
How about that bh 4th ball loop? bending on his left leg to reach is against coaches' advice but recovery is just about pushing from it so there is maybe a small window where that apparently wrong positioning is useful a technique?
To be compared with 2 super quick and small side steps.
The player seems to think it was unorthodox as well since he undervalue his own stroke by raising his hand.
Is it controllable? sustainable? is the left leg bending offering a base that's not stable? Sure, it's harder to apply power that way but staying in the point and remaining active, aggressive can be done obviously.

at 3min:


Edited by fatt - 03/16/2019 at 7:48pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/16/2019 at 9:21pm
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 



Edited by blahness - 03/16/2019 at 10:07pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 1:46am
never thought about the risk of injury. Good point! A friend told me that he had read or heard that the chinese Do not want to rotate to much with the torso because they have seen that it is the cause of back injuries in the future. So you are on to something. But Maybe the chinese is not always correct. 

I have also understood that the trend is less forehand feet and less rotation because you Do not have the time today when everyone plays so fast and quick. 

I also find it interesting that he trains fh loop from the bh. His strongest shot seems to be the backhand i think then k find it odd that he trains on working around to use his not so good stroke. Feel that he would use the time better if he build his game around his strength. Why does he Do it? Learn to move? Can play stronge with forehand? More natural at higher balls?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 7:59am
Back on the BH... It is becoming my belief that you don't need waist or hip rotation for the BH loop, only the unbowing action powered by the legs (kinda similar to a deadlift in a way!) which is already really powerful.

ZJK plays with waist rotation when he does a BH powerloop (maybe also why he has serious lower back issues, alongside his jerky FH)... Kreanga plays with waist rotation too but his bh recovery speed is sacrificed for pure killing power which I think was only viable in the speed glue era. Ma Long tried waist rotation for a year or two (there's a video with LGL coaching him on using it!), later on he completely abandoned it (I think it was around the time he changed to tacky rubber on the BH)...

The modern BH dominant players (FZD, LJK, LGY, WCQ, Harimoto, Hugo Calderano, Ovtcharov) don't seem to use any form of waist or hip rotation unless they're in a cramped position...


Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 8:10am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 12:09pm
My coach has been telling me to only use the unbowing action for the backhand loop against underspin. That said, the other coaches have told me to use more rotation for power. I think it depends on your positioning and time. If you have the time and you're in position, you can do more to add more.

Against topspin, close to the table you'll have hardly any rotation or unbowing. A little further or when you have the time, you'll have more.

If I get the chance, I'll upload some video of his backhand loop. I actually really like it and I'm hoping to have something like his one day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:04pm
Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

My coach has been telling me to only use the unbowing action for the backhand loop against underspin. That said, the other coaches have told me to use more rotation for power. I think it depends on your positioning and time. If you have the time and you're in position, you can do more to add more.

Against topspin, close to the table you'll have hardly any rotation or unbowing. A little further or when you have the time, you'll have more.

If I get the chance, I'll upload some video of his backhand loop. I actually really like it and I'm hoping to have something like his one day.

Actually squatting is likely more important than bowing for backspin.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:28pm
Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

never thought about the risk of injury. Good point! A friend told me that he had read or heard that the chinese Do not want to rotate to much with the torso because they have seen that it is the cause of back injuries in the future. So you are on to something. But Maybe the chinese is not always correct. 

I have also understood that the trend is less forehand feet and less rotation because you Do not have the time today when everyone plays so fast and quick. 

I also find it interesting that he trains fh loop from the bh. His strongest shot seems to be the backhand i think then k find it odd that he trains on working around to use his not so good stroke. Feel that he would use the time better if he build his game around his strength. Why does he Do it? Learn to move? Can play stronge with forehand? More natural at higher balls?

Since you use short pips, maybe you play close to the table a lot but it is relatively hard to play a good backhand against a moving ball from the backhand side.  Forehand is a more flexible shot against a variety of long balls.  I wouldn't say just higher balls, but any ball to which you may need to play a quality shot but it doesn't come to you like a ball in your usual strike zone.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:32pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/17/2019 at 2:33pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:42pm
I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:45pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Back on the BH... It is becoming my belief that you don't need waist or hip rotation for the BH loop, only the unbowing action powered by the legs (kinda similar to a deadlift in a way!) which is already really powerful.

ZJK plays with waist rotation when he does a BH powerloop (maybe also why he has serious lower back issues, alongside his jerky FH)... Kreanga plays with waist rotation too but his bh recovery speed is sacrificed for pure killing power which I think was only viable in the speed glue era. Ma Long tried waist rotation for a year or two (there's a video with LGL coaching him on using it!), later on he completely abandoned it (I think it was around the time he changed to tacky rubber on the BH)...

The modern BH dominant players (FZD, LJK, LGY, WCQ, Harimoto, Hugo Calderano, Ovtcharov) don't seem to use any form of waist or hip rotation unless they're in a cramped position...

Not sure how Calderano makes that list.  He is probably more guilty than any other player of using waist without hips on both forehand and backhand because he can get away with it.

The others I would have to watch more, but I suspect their training may be changing but that old habits don't disappear.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 2:55pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stiltt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 3:17pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 4:48pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.

His right foot and knees are at around 3 o'clock ie pointed towards the right, his body Is actually rotated about 30-45 degrees more (look at the shoulders, they dont lie) which would cause quite a bit of torsion. I watched many other players and they don't have this torsion,  at least not during training. In matches however it is bound to happen due to having to execute the loop from bad positioning...



Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 5:33pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....


Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 5:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:30pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Back on the BH... It is becoming my belief that you don't need waist or hip rotation for the BH loop, only the unbowing action powered by the legs (kinda similar to a deadlift in a way!) which is already really powerful.

ZJK plays with waist rotation when he does a BH powerloop (maybe also why he has serious lower back issues, alongside his jerky FH)... Kreanga plays with waist rotation too but his bh recovery speed is sacrificed for pure killing power which I think was only viable in the speed glue era. Ma Long tried waist rotation for a year or two (there's a video with LGL coaching him on using it!), later on he completely abandoned it (I think it was around the time he changed to tacky rubber on the BH)...

The modern BH dominant players (FZD, LJK, LGY, WCQ, Harimoto, Hugo Calderano, Ovtcharov) don't seem to use any form of waist or hip rotation unless they're in a cramped position...

Not sure how Calderano makes that list.  He is probably more guilty than any other player of using waist without hips on both forehand and backhand because he can get away with it.

The others I would have to watch more, but I suspect their training may be changing but that old habits don't disappear.

If you watch this training video you might change your mind. But I would tend to agree with you that in matches he looks like he does use waist without hips to get out of jail in bad positions...LOL probably is one of the more suspect inclusions in the list...




Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 5:34pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:46pm
Apologies, I should have used unbowing and "unsquatting" rather than "unbowing powered by the legs" to make it clearer...

Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 6:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 5:54pm
I tried it fatt's way, it seems like you can have weight transfer from left to right, but that acts in a more translational than rotation of the hips. It does make sense especially for diagonal shots that you want to orient the force direction to the side a bit. 

Edit: to take this a step further I would say that you can orient the "unsquatting" and "unbowing" force directly in the direction you want the ball to go, it may be a more effective way of controlling the direction of the BH loop rather than adjusting the arm movement. 

I think you can rotate your hips a bit in the BH position but then you lose the stability as well as place additional stress on the knees compared to the pure squatting and unbowing action...I think it's a grey area and a compromise between stability vs power....

Personally, I quite like the idea of forgoing the extra power from the hip rotation on the BH and focus more on the squatting and bowing action (as someone who has minor scoliosis I would prefer having my legs take up most of the work!)


Edited by blahness - 03/17/2019 at 6:46pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 7:06pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.

His right foot and knees are at around 3 o'clock ie pointed towards the right, his body Is actually rotated about 30-45 degrees more (look at the shoulders, they dont lie) which would cause quite a bit of torsion. I watched many other players and they don't have this torsion,  at least not during training. In matches however it is bound to happen due to having to execute the loop from bad positioning...


In good faith, try to do what he is doing and you will see it is not as bad as it looks.  If you twist on the balls of your feet as much as he has while keeping your face looking forward, you will look a lot like that even if you do not twist your torso.  In fact, just leaning forward in that position will get you the same look he has.  Calderano is similar/worse and you approve of Calderano.


Edited by NextLevel - 03/17/2019 at 7:20pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 7:12pm
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by fatt fatt wrote:

I always liked the Timo's bh that promotes bowing and squatting with the force coming equally from both legs in the swing but it is still possible to have some hips into it, without active torso rotation: in the mirror, we can be quickly comfortable loading the backswing by squatting more onto the left leg (right handed player), then when pushing from the legs but more from the left leg, the weight transfer to the right leg happens but the torso does not actively rotate relatively to the hips, it just transfers the force from the hips on better par with what the elbow does. It seems a bit of weight transfer to the left in the backswing would make sense when doing the squatting. It does not have to be obvious and heavy, just enough so during the swing, we throw the core forwards slightly to the right to support the 30+ degrees angle on which the elbow and the paddle are.

The devil is in the details but I agree with the concept of subtle left to right weight transfer on the backhand.  It is not necessary but I think it helps.  I do think that a lot of things that are visible in TT do not always match the feeling of the stroke.  Sometimes, you have to have a certain technique to be able to feel what the player is doing.  I think there is far more left to right hip rotation on Harimoto's backhand than people give him credit for.  It is a very small motion, it is not large enough to cause a visible rotation of the torso, but it is there.
yes, it makes so much sense since it's almost hard work to make it not happen, once it is acknowledged that it's the right thing to have a little, for the sake of a more harmonious general trajectory of the paddle. A simple visual idea: if every component of the stroke can be drawn as a curve, orienting all curves towards the same direction sounds reasonable.


Like what NextLevel said in the other thread, for hip rotation to happen the feet has to "allow" the movement to avoid shearing at the knees...so if there's some subtle hip rotation we should be able to notice it in the feet movement. Here's the crazy thing I found (not sure if my eyes are deceiving me?!), Harimoto in those BHs was definitely turning his feet and knees, but in the opposite direction that I expected. He was turning it anticlockwise?! Now I'm utterly confused lol....

He is loading in a circle and his left foot is slightly in front so it has a funny look.  But if you realize he is loading in a circle on the backswing to get momentum on the forward swing then it makes sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mickd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:04pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by mickd mickd wrote:

My coach has been telling me to only use the unbowing action for the backhand loop against underspin. That said, the other coaches have told me to use more rotation for power. I think it depends on your positioning and time. If you have the time and you're in position, you can do more to add more.

Against topspin, close to the table you'll have hardly any rotation or unbowing. A little further or when you have the time, you'll have more.

If I get the chance, I'll upload some video of his backhand loop. I actually really like it and I'm hoping to have something like his one day.

Actually squatting is likely more important than bowing for backspin.

Good clarification, yes that's definitely needed! Before anyone can even try to bow and unbow, they definitely need to squat and unsquat. The balance wouldn't be there without it. And if it's underspin, you'll likely need to squat low.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/17/2019 at 8:05pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Lula Lula wrote:

I think his timing and acceleration with the backhand is impressive. Good players are great to explode at ball contact. 

I think his forehand looks rather forced, grueling, demanding compared to the chinese. Think it looks like they get good power with less effort. But Maybe it looks like that because harimoto work so much with the body. 

Ialso find it interesting that it seems like his arm is somewhat close ro the body and not fully extended and relaxed. Feel that he would benefit more from using the body if his arm were more extended. Now i also compare to the chinese. But What Do i know, he is a pro haha

I hope you understand What i mean. Did not find the correct Word to explain his stroke. English is not my first language

I don't like his FH either, I have a sneaky suspicion that he's a bit too ambitious and wants to coax so much from his body in the FH that he's overdoing it. Other junior players would probably be more patient and wait for their bodies to grow and increase in strength rather than forcing the power in at such a young age. Like Ttgold mentioned in another thread I agree that he's rotating his upper body too much. If you do a pause of the video at the end of his backswing you can see the torsion at the lower back quite clearly. It could be a source of injury down the road...

But his BH is definitely a thing of beauty, and I would dare say since ZJK it's one of the best all round BHs that the sport will see. 

Edit: added a pic of his FH backswing from another video to illustrate the point above. 


Given where his feet is and where is body is facing, there is far less torsion than I think you are making out.  I agree his forehand technique is using a lot of things for maximal effort, but I suspect none of them is unsafe.  You are always going to get a little torsion, it all depends on whether you over do it and use it as a source of power and this doesn't look excessive at all to me.  He could probably turn his legs and it would take care of the swing.

His right foot and knees are at around 3 o'clock ie pointed towards the right, his body Is actually rotated about 30-45 degrees more (look at the shoulders, they dont lie) which would cause quite a bit of torsion. I watched many other players and they don't have this torsion,  at least not during training. In matches however it is bound to happen due to having to execute the loop from bad positioning...


In good faith, try to do what he is doing and you will see it is not as bad as it looks.  If you twist on the balls of your feet as much as he has while keeping your face looking forward, you will look a lot like that even if you do not twist your torso.  In fact, just leaning forward in that position will get you the same look he has.  Calderano is similar/worse and you approve of Calderano.
Maybe it's a trick of the camera angle but the only way I could get my shoulders and hips and knees in his position is by twisting the torso.  For his torso not to be in torsion, his knees and hips would have to be rotated to about the 4-5 oclock position which if you look at his knees he doesn't reach that angle. Calderano doesn't seem to rotate his shoulders past 3 o'clock, at least during training. During matches it's another story, so I agree he's not the best example here... 
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