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Chinese forehand Vs. Euro forehand?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2012 at 4:04pm
Originally posted by seguso seguso wrote:

Originally posted by cotdt cotdt wrote:

There is always a strong forward component to the stroke.


a strongly forward, please


LOL you got that from crappy translation on some Chinese rubber package, right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote power7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/05/2012 at 10:36pm
Originally posted by viktorovich viktorovich wrote:

 POWER7 : " In reality the basic mechanics are the same between the two FH loop strokes.  The Chinese just has more emphasis of the shoulder acting as the pivot for the swing.  Where Euro stroke emphasis is on the bending of the elbow."
 
Ma Long,Ma Lin,Zhang Jike,Xu Xin,... - do both : that and another.
I don't see why not.  If you're not in proper position, you're going to have to do something to get the ball over with spin on the FH side.   
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Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
 
You would have balls flying everywhere for the first few weeks... but when you get adjusted, everything else falls in place... except the serve, i think!?
 
Oh wait, im talking about myself... my style of play is asian, and had always used chinese rubber on both forehand and back hand, recently after migrating i stopped playing for a year, when i finally found a club near by, i decided to buy the same blade and chinese rubbers i got used to... but not being able to consistently control my loops with the same setup, i decided to switch to acuda S1T for forehand. (thinking what the heck, i know that in my entire playing life i never could control Japanese rubbers then why not try a euro rubber since my chinese rubber is not doing the trick either). My only reference for choosing the said rubber is due to hardness and color of sponge. (I played with Focus II before - medium hard and peach sponge). After 2 months i was able to adjust. My loops are definitely faster now but my serves i think are slightly less spinnier than before. Although I still do have a chinese rubber on my backhand in case i need to but thats another topic!
 
I never did change my BH rubber though, simply because i did not see it to be broken...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/15/2012 at 1:05am
Originally posted by collins.latag collins.latag wrote:

Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

So what would happen if a player played with a euro rubber but used the Chinese stroke? What would be the result?
 
You would have balls flying everywhere for the first few weeks... but when you get adjusted, everything else falls in place... except the serve, i think!?
Nonsense.  I go back and forth between CN and JP rubbers all the time.




Edited by pnachtwey - 07/15/2012 at 1:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote alborz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/30/2012 at 3:15pm
the different is for make a chinese loop you have to open your arm.
usually chinese forehand have more power (spin and speed) but europian forehand have a faster recovery after the shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomtat92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/17/2012 at 5:40pm
Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/20/2012 at 11:15am
Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   

Generally, just by imitating the pro's you wont be a better player , but  if you like to do this in your OWN personal style then yes go for it (not imitating but taking some guidelines from the pros technique) . 

Every player is unique , if its good for your own FH development to "mimic" some of the characteristics of timo boll then why try to imitate ma long or zjk if their strokes just doesnt fit your personal style?. 

Dont just copy other players , but create your self as a player by "borrowing" certain skills that you can actually cope with and then develop your own playing style . You need the legs the reflexes and the experience of malong or zjk to execute their strokes . Very nice article btw !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tomtat92 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 6:01am
The pro´s is better because they are using there muscle in the optimal way. So why should i not be better if i can use my body in the same way as the Chinese players? All our bodies is looking almost the same, but the diffrens how we use them is huge, especially in table tennis. For example top runners, swimmers, cyclists are all using almost the same technique because they have find the best way of using the body to get the maximum out of the it. Why should it not be the same in table tennis? The chineses is dominating table tennis, and almost all of them is using their body in a similar way. Why should not the europeans look more on the chinese and try to understand their technique and see what benefits you earn from it? I dont think the chinese is better beause they train more, I think they are better because the have a more natural, effective bodymotion that allowe them to have quicker reflexes, faster footwork, and generally more spin, power and controll. Their knowledge about how the body works is the key to succes. Why should I not copy good technique from the best table tennisplayer, when runners is copying good technique from Usain Bolt? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 6:09am
Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   


You need to learn to loop with your biggest muscles first, which are on your legs.  Arm motion is secondary.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 6:38am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   


You need to learn to loop with your biggest muscles first, which are on your legs.  Arm motion is secondary.


I disagree, I learnt mine top to bottom, starting from the arm, then to the shoulder, then the waist, then to the legs. IMO you can't get the legs correct if you can't get the basic arm action right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 7:02am
Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

The pro´s is better because they are using there muscle in the optimal way. So why should i not be better if i can use my body in the same way as the Chinese players? All our bodies is looking almost the same, but the diffrens how we use them is huge, especially in table tennis. For example top runners, swimmers, cyclists are all using almost the same technique because they have find the best way of using the body to get the maximum out of the it. Why should it not be the same in table tennis? The chineses is dominating table tennis, and almost all of them is using their body in a similar way. Why should not the europeans look more on the chinese and try to understand their technique and see what benefits you earn from it? I dont think the chinese is better beause they train more, I think they are better because the have a more natural, effective bodymotion that allowe them to have quicker reflexes, faster footwork, and generally more spin, power and controll. Their knowledge about how the body works is the key to succes. Why should I not copy good technique from the best table tennisplayer, when runners is copying good technique from Usain Bolt? 

Because

1) you may lack the athletic ability of Usain Bolt.
2) You may lack a special skill/trait that Usain Bolt has that makes his technique right for him (his long legs, for example).
3) You may misunderstand what goes into what Usain Bolt does and get injured going it.
4) Usain Bolt has access to professional coaching which helps regulate his errors that you do not have.
5) Usain Bolt has a training regimen that optimizes his body to his style and you don't know that regimen and have not optimized your body.
6) there may be small details that you may not see while copying Bolt.
7) Usain Bolt has to be world class - you may not have to be world class to get the results you desire.
8) You may be too old to put yourself through the stress that Usain Bolt puts his body through.

Optimal means optimal way for them and i you are similar to them, go for it.

Usually, to get a better forehand/backhand, get a coach who can work you through the errors given your goals or learn from a detailed video by a good player.  If you can surmount all the above difficulties (and there may be others unlisted), by all means, copy world class technique.  I have enjoyed learning from players and building my loop which uses no knees. and mostly wrist and arm action.  Does it have elements of a WLQ loop?  Sure, because all successful technique has similar physics.  But small things like how you grip your paddle might affect how a pro loops and if you don't know these things, you will be fairly lost.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 11:13am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   


You need to learn to loop with your biggest muscles first, which are on your legs.  Arm motion is secondary.


I disagree, I learnt mine top to bottom, starting from the arm, then to the shoulder, then the waist, then to the legs. IMO you can't get the legs correct if you can't get the basic arm action right.

Your sequence would be perfect if you reverse it.  Smile



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 11:35am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

The pro´s is better because they are using there muscle in the optimal way. So why should i not be better if i can use my body in the same way as the Chinese players? All our bodies is looking almost the same, but the diffrens how we use them is huge, especially in table tennis. For example top runners, swimmers, cyclists are all using almost the same technique because they have find the best way of using the body to get the maximum out of the it. Why should it not be the same in table tennis? The chineses is dominating table tennis, and almost all of them is using their body in a similar way. Why should not the europeans look more on the chinese and try to understand their technique and see what benefits you earn from it? I dont think the chinese is better beause they train more, I think they are better because the have a more natural, effective bodymotion that allowe them to have quicker reflexes, faster footwork, and generally more spin, power and controll. Their knowledge about how the body works is the key to succes. Why should I not copy good technique from the best table tennisplayer, when runners is copying good technique from Usain Bolt? 

Because

1) you may lack the athletic ability of Usain Bolt.
2) You may lack a special skill/trait that Usain Bolt has that makes his technique right for him (his long legs, for example).
3) You may misunderstand what goes into what Usain Bolt does and get injured going it.
4) Usain Bolt has access to professional coaching which helps regulate his errors that you do not have.
5) Usain Bolt has a training regimen that optimizes his body to his style and you don't know that regimen and have not optimized your body.
6) there may be small details that you may not see while copying Bolt.
7) Usain Bolt has to be world class - you may not have to be world class to get the results you desire.
8) You may be too old to put yourself through the stress that Usain Bolt puts his body through.

Optimal means optimal way for them and i you are similar to them, go for it.

Usually, to get a better forehand/backhand, get a coach who can work you through the errors given your goals or learn from a detailed video by a good player.  If you can surmount all the above difficulties (and there may be others unlisted), by all means, copy world class technique.  I have enjoyed learning from players and building my loop which uses no knees. and mostly wrist and arm action.  Does it have elements of a WLQ loop?  Sure, because all successful technique has similar physics.  But small things like how you grip your paddle might affect how a pro loops and if you don't know these things, you will be fairly lost.


my point exactly ! if Ma Long's or Ma lin's FH is suitable for your playstyle tomtat then go for it . But remember that you will have to have great physical condition and years of experience and practice to support the technique of such large FH strokes . 

Dont just mimic the best players , but copy them in a way that improves YOU as a player . There will be no 2nd ma long or ma lin or wang liqin . Every player is unique. Cheers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 11:45am
What is Chinese loop? Ma Long's loop is really different than ZJK and I can't tell which is better. ZJK brushes everything. ML goes straight through the ball and transfers most of the energy of the paddle to power, while ZJK has more spin. The body movement is quite different too. I don't think there is another TT player in the world who can fly around the table like ZJK, so you will never be always in position like he is, and will be hard to copy his shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TTFrenzy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 12:39pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

What is Chinese loop? Ma Long's loop is really different than ZJK and I can't tell which is better. ZJK brushes everything. ML goes straight through the ball and transfers most of the energy of the paddle to power, while ZJK has more spin. The body movement is quite different too. I don't think there is another TT player in the world who can fly around the table like ZJK, so you will never be always in position like he is, and will be hard to copy his shots.

well in modern table tennis , there is no such thing as "chinese loop" or "european loop" . Every ball demands different technique that depends on your weight , height , muscle explosiveness , wrist motion and body balance . 

When learning FH loop for the 1st time then yes ,  there is a big difference between what Europeans teach and what chinese teach . Chinese loop is far better but also more demanding in terms of physical condition
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 1:19pm
Think "big muscle" when you loop, folks!  Those muscles are on your legs!  You can chickenwing your loop every time and still be as powerful as 2500-rated loopers, if you mostly loop with your legs!  Smile






Edited by roundrobin - 12/21/2012 at 2:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by tomtat92 tomtat92 wrote:

Has the Chinese forehand more potential than the euro forehand? Why should I look on Timo and try to learn things from his technique, when i can look on Ma Long who is the together with ZJK way better than Timo? Could a player with Timo's technique be the best in the world and dominate like Ma long?   


You need to learn to loop with your biggest muscles first, which are on your legs.  Arm motion is secondary.


I disagree, I learnt mine top to bottom, starting from the arm, then to the shoulder, then the waist, then to the legs. IMO you can't get the legs correct if you can't get the basic arm action right.

Your sequence would be perfect if you reverse it.  Smile




I mean you do have to hit the ball right? So if you have correct leg action, incorrect arm action, when you finally get to learning correct arm action, you would have eventually built up many many bad habits that will be very hard to correct in the future. Might as well hit the ball gently with the arm to build up correct muscle memory, then add the other components one by one. 

Of course, when hitting the ball, you always start from the legs to the arm in terms of power generation. I'm talking about learning over here, not the actual sequence of generating power during the stroke. 


Edited by blahness - 12/21/2012 at 6:35pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/21/2012 at 11:44pm

RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing. 



Edited by Rack - 12/21/2012 at 11:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:00am
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing. 


OK, when u start learning, without any arm motion, so you just do the weight transfer first for a few weeks without hitting the ball? Coz when you hit the ball you have to risk learning wrong arm technique. 
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Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing. 


The key to not overswinging is not to hit hard in the beginning and play a lot of medium power shots, until you get the whole package right. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:07am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing. 


OK, when u start learning, without any arm motion, so you just do the weight transfer first for a few weeks without hitting the ball? Coz when you hit the ball you have to risk learning wrong arm technique. 
 
The way I usually explain it to people is to just hold your arm out in front of you in a 90 degree angle.  Once you weight shift to your leg and your waist rotates back, you arm doesn't even need to move yet... just let it follow your waist.  Then when you transfer weight and your waist rotates forward... let your arm follow again.  Thats the basic counterhitting stroke (small motion) that I would want them to learn before any arm movement comes into play which could make a bigger stroke.  Since the arm doesn't move... you don't bring in any bad arm swinging movements yet.  Then slowly you incorporate more legs and more waist if you want to hit a little harder then adding the "small arm" (forearm) acceleration movement without using much "big arm" (entire arm).  1 step at a time basically.
 
Swinging the arm first introduces alot of variables... for instance... some people can swing their arms with basically 0 waist/0 legs... then you would have to teach them legs/waist trying to incorporate it within their existing arm swing... gets really messy.
 
As for the overswinging... it sounds easy just to tell them that... but completely different when their head is already preprogrammed to want to do a hard flashy shot using all arm power which is the reason why you teach them leg/waist first to immediately dispel the "arm swinging = power" notion and reprogram them easily.  Many are too preprogrammed watching tennis thinking "arm swing!"


Edited by Rack - 12/22/2012 at 12:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:22am

see how Zhang Jike practices with a MUCH lower ranked player, he purposely gives the ball to a really comfortable pace and speed to his opponent. (his normal warmup speed is about 5-10x the speed/frequency) 

The mark of a great player is being able to play at whatever speed you want. 
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He's just doin a basic FH/FH counterhit warmup... anyone who has their basics down can do that.  You don't need to be Zhang Jike to control a basic FH/FH to a certain pace/height.  Thats pretty much a requirement for everyone to be able to do that... its one of the first things everyone learns.

Edited by Rack - 12/22/2012 at 12:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:32am
Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:

Originally posted by Rack Rack wrote:

RR is correct... you learn the weight transfer from the legs first which turns your waist.  The arm follows the waist naturally/loosely.  You normally don't want them to excessively swing their arms (alot of new players tend to think that swinging their arms is everything) or it develops into tons of bad habits in terms of getting stiff muscles in the arm, overswinging, etc etc.  Getting stiff is one of the hardest things to unlearn so you want to avoid that at all costs.  They need to learn the legs/waist motion as a foundation to build off of instead of building off arm swing. 


OK, when u start learning, without any arm motion, so you just do the weight transfer first for a few weeks without hitting the ball? Coz when you hit the ball you have to risk learning wrong arm technique. 
 
The way I usually explain it to people is to just hold your arm out in front of you in a 90 degree angle.  Once you weight shift to your leg and your waist rotates back, you arm doesn't even need to move yet... just let it follow your waist.  Then when you transfer weight and your waist rotates forward... let your arm follow again.  Thats the basic counterhitting stroke (small motion) that I would want them to learn before any arm movement comes into play which could make a bigger stroke.  Since the arm doesn't move... you don't bring in any bad arm swinging movements yet.  Then slowly you incorporate more legs and more waist if you want to hit a little harder then adding the "small arm" (forearm) acceleration movement without using much "big arm" (entire arm).  1 step at a time basically.
 
Swinging the arm first introduces alot of variables... for instance... some people can swing their arms with basically 0 waist/0 legs... then you would have to teach them legs/waist trying to incorporate it within their existing arm swing... gets really messy.
 
As for the overswinging... it sounds easy just to tell them that... but completely different when their head is already preprogrammed to want to do a hard flashy shot using all arm power which is the reason why you teach them leg/waist first to immediately dispel the "arm swinging = power" notion and reprogram them easily.  Many are too preprogrammed watching tennis thinking "arm swing!"

Some people when they start below, they won't know how to coordinate their waist and arm movement. What usually happens is that their arm becomes "glued" to their waist, which makes it even stiffer (they try to "lock" their arm to try to not let it move too much) which is contrary to what we want to achieve (good relaxed arm movement in harmony with the waist/legs). By having them focus on just ONE component in the beginning makes things much easier for them. (basically where to hit the ball, simple anticlockwise rotation like a slap, ending position, relax and don't hit hard, guiding the ball to the spot you want it to go)

I find that the hard part for people is to apply force at the correct position on the ball in the correct manner, as well as consistency.  

If you have the correct (relaxed) arm swing and it's consistent, it's really easy to add your waist and legs power to the stroke. Of course you have to "ban" them from trying to hit hard... which may be hard coz some people are just plain impatient.

It's probably just two different approaches to solve the same problem (bottom-up, top-bottom approaches)


Edited by blahness - 12/22/2012 at 12:34am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:34am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


see how Zhang Jike practices with a MUCH lower ranked player, he purposely gives the ball to a really comfortable pace and speed to his opponent. (his normal warmup speed is about 5-10x the speed/frequency) 

The mark of a great player is being able to play at whatever speed you want. 
I don't think it would be 10x faster than that, it looks like a kinda standed warmup
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:37am
Originally posted by smackman smackman wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


see how Zhang Jike practices with a MUCH lower ranked player, he purposely gives the ball to a really comfortable pace and speed to his opponent. (his normal warmup speed is about 5-10x the speed/frequency) 

The mark of a great player is being able to play at whatever speed you want. 
I don't think it would be 10x faster than that, it looks like a kinda standed warmup

LOL sorry i posted this in the wrong thread, it should go to the "refusing to practise with lower-ranked players"....... :(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:38am
I've actually never heard a coach teach top bottom... but RR would know... he's probably been around more high level TT players/coaches than probably everyone on this forum.
 
When you say most people usually don't know how to coordinate their waist/arm movement... thats exactly why they teach you not to move your arm first so you don't bring in that extra variable and learn legs/waist first.  Can't jump to steps C and D before A and B are finished.
 
As for locking... you don't tell them to lock their arm to their waist... just to hold it out in front of them at 90 degrees and just let it follow the waist movement.  There should be a gap between their elbow and their body so it's not locked and it stays loose.  I usually tell them to really watch themselves when they do that motion then compare it to someone actually hitting using the same motion.  Once they see that it matches their visual perception, thats when it "clicks."  I find that it helps to actually visually show them what it looks like when someone uses arm only vs someone who's using legs/waist first letting the motion just come along with it.  Keep in mind alot of people try to match what they do with videos that they watch (visual perception) so showing them the differences helps them buy into the concepts/nuances that they didn't notice watching their videos.


Edited by Rack - 12/22/2012 at 12:44am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roundrobin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 12:46am
Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Some people when they start below, they won't know how to coordinate their waist and arm movement. What usually happens is that their arm becomes "glued" to their waist, which makes it even stiffer (they try to "lock" their arm to try to not let it move too much) which is contrary to what we want to achieve (good relaxed arm movement in harmony with the waist/legs)

I find that the hard part for people is to apply force at the correct position on the ball in the correct manner, as well as consistency.  

If you have the correct (relaxed) arm swing and it's consistent, it's really easy to add your waist and legs power to the stroke. Of course you have to "ban" them from trying to hit hard... which may be hard coz some people are just plain impatient.

It's probably just two different approaches to solve the same problem (bottom-up, top-bottom approaches)


There are two distinctive "strokes" that you are somewhat confusing with each other.  One is the modern topspin loop, which is mostly executed with legs and waist rotation.  This is the only way to generate enough power against any type of ball, let it be a heavy chop or a loaded topspin drive.  The other is countering near the table against topspin, a more modern version of blocking.  Your description fits the latter, and not topspin loop.  There's no really other way to learn to loop properly without knowing how to use your legs and waist first.  You can't simply modify your countering technique to a looping technique... They are two completely different things.

You are absolutely correct that you must have a relaxed arm to loop, and most beginners can't do it because they lack accuracy when they relax.  This is precisely why you must learn to loop with your legs first because your arm and wrist could be stiff, but your legs will have to relax in order to push your body forward and rotate your waist.  Once you master proper lower body rotation then you add your upper body rotation, and finally your forearm rotation and wrist snap.  Think of it as building a pyramid... Start from bottom and finish on top (of the ball).  Smile




Edited by roundrobin - 12/22/2012 at 12:58am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 1:27am
Originally posted by roundrobin roundrobin wrote:

Originally posted by blahness blahness wrote:


Some people when they start below, they won't know how to coordinate their waist and arm movement. What usually happens is that their arm becomes "glued" to their waist, which makes it even stiffer (they try to "lock" their arm to try to not let it move too much) which is contrary to what we want to achieve (good relaxed arm movement in harmony with the waist/legs)

I find that the hard part for people is to apply force at the correct position on the ball in the correct manner, as well as consistency.  

If you have the correct (relaxed) arm swing and it's consistent, it's really easy to add your waist and legs power to the stroke. Of course you have to "ban" them from trying to hit hard... which may be hard coz some people are just plain impatient.

It's probably just two different approaches to solve the same problem (bottom-up, top-bottom approaches)


There are two distinctive "strokes" that you are somewhat confusing with each other.  One is the modern topspin loop, which is mostly executed with legs and waist rotation.  This is the only way to generate enough power against any type of ball, let it be a heavy chop or a loaded topspin drive.  The other is countering near the table against topspin, a more modern version of blocking.  Your description fits the latter, and not topspin loop.  There's no really other way to learn to loop properly without knowing how to use your legs and waist first.  You can't simply modify your countering technique to a looping technique... They are two completely different things.

You are absolutely correct that you must have a relaxed arm to loop, and most beginners can't do it because they lack accuracy when they relax.  This is precisely why you must learn to loop with your legs first because your arm and wrist could be stiff, but your legs will have to relax in order to push your body forward and rotate your waist.  Once you master proper lower body rotation then you add your upper body rotation, and finally your forearm rotation and wrist snap.  Think of it as building a pyramid... Start from bottom and finish on top (of the ball).  Smile



Yup i was talking about countering against topspin, but then you can just as easily develop the loop from the counter, I disagree with the fact that the countering technique is completely different to the looping technique, if they're completely different why train your counter in the first place? To me they're basically almost identical except in terms of the hit/spin ratio. Countering is the basic building block for an effective loop and if a beginner can master the counter, looping is quite simply a piece of cake. The pros practice literally thousands of counters every single day. 

You can't really teach a beginner to loop if they can't even counter properly. What I have been taught is the proper arm action for countering, then adding waist and legs to the countering action, then only starting to learn to loop underspin. That's what I was talking about going arm first (countering) then adding waist, then only finally adding the contributions to the legs. 

I also disagree with not being able to generate power without using the legs. If your counter is good enough you can quite simply hit through pretty much every ball (excluding low, heavy underspin balls) rather easily (it's just a matter of adjusting blade angles). 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote blahness Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12/22/2012 at 1:28am
Most of the Chinese coaches won't even let you loop until you have almost completely mastered the basic FH/BH countering to a certain degree. 
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