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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:06am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

equipment may not have control but equipment have speed that affects control of an individual.. why are people making an issue about the simple term of control? 


If speed is the only factor, why talk about control at all? Just talk about the speed. Of course, "control" is more complicated than just the inverse of speed, as has already been pointed out, but it's still a subjective concept, based solely on each individual player's perspective. I don't like crazy hard and stiff blades because they are bouncy. But anything too slow means I have to swing so hard and fast to hit winners that it affects my accuracy. So, for me, the blade that I have the most control with is somewhere in between those two states. This seems obvious, no doubt. But I wouldn't then try to give my favourite blade the highest control rating and expect others to agree, and I wouldn't then say that beginners should use my blade because it has the most control.

The issue is that some people think "control" is some sort of metric which can be applied directly to equipment - that objectively one blade (for example) can have more control than another. Perhaps that a blade can have a control rating out of 10.

I say that's nonsense, and this idea is exactly what equipment manufacturers would like their punters to believe in order to sell their latest and greatest stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:12am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

and after arguing about if control should be used as a term or whether is it correct or wrong to use such term in layman's term, does that make a person play better??? this is a waste of time.. one thing i agree though, numbers cannot quantify control of an equipment but we cannot deny the consensus that some equipment are faster than others making people lose control over them.


It's not just speed. Some people will struggle with a very flexy setup, or an incredibly slow setup. And other players will excel with either of those, and some will love hitting laser-guided bullets with a Boll ZLC. If they all sat down and talked about how amazing the control was on all these different setups, no one would agree.

Forget about equipment "control", and talk about real physical concepts. Stiffness, hardness, speed. And then talk about your technique, and how equipment has helped or hindered the various areas of your game. This can be genuinely useful stuff for other people. But if you just say "it has good control" with no further depth, then how meaningful can that possibly be?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:19am
saying an equipment has good control is one thing, saying that an equipment has good control compared to other equipment is another.  still, arguing about the term control does not make you play better, knowing what is too fast or too slow for gameplay helps a lot though that doesn't revolve around that variable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:22am
First, I'm not championing the TB ZLC. I do like it, but everybody has their own preference.

@tt4me - I agree that we should not confuse the Younglings. So lets not.

You agree that we cannot take the bat out of our table tennis (TT) control system, then replace it with a clip board which in its most simplest form has similar properties to a pistol grip TT bat. Try playing with a toilet brush... Then expect the players' superior skill to shine above the equipment as though it's irrelevant.

Now, we are not discussing Closed Loop Automatic Control Systems here. We are discussing Closed Loop MANUAL Control Systems, where the bat is an integral part of the control system. The feedback is provided via our senses - feel, sight and sound (no taste and no smell) and using the most powerful computer that exits, the human brain, to perform calculations and the necessary corrections whilst playing with the TT bat.

Gears is not that bad a laymans term to describe a rubbers performance either. It's typically a way of describing the non-linear features of a rubber. I think most of us understand what gears mean and it's our sport. COR is ok for golf drivers, but it doesn't portray any adjectives about feel, hard, soft, captive, control etc. ...

So lets not confuse the Younglings and please take the table tenns Closed Loop Manual Contol System to the Engineering forum. You might get a surprise about it's plausibility.   

Edited by CraneStyle - 02/07/2014 at 9:27am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:23am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

saying an equipment has good control is one thing, saying that an equipment has good control compared to other equipment is another.  


Comparisons have better value, yes. But only if you say what you were doing to draw the comparison. If you said that the ZJK ALC actually does have better control that the TBS, for example, I'd hope you would say WHY you think this is the case. Is it slower? Stiffer? Softer? And once you'd finished telling us all about these real things, which provide useful information (or at least a useful opinion), we could probably understand why you arrived at the "more control" conclusion. But if the ZJK ALC gave you more control in a way which doesn't interest me (or even affects me negatively), I could disagree and say that the TBS has more control for me. And who is wrong? No one, because it's all just subjective opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:27am
Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

saying an equipment has good control is one thing, saying that an equipment has good control compared to other equipment is another.  


Comparisons have better value, yes. But only if you say what you were doing to draw the comparison. If you said that the ZJK ALC actually does have better control that the TBS, for example, I'd hope you would say WHY you think this is the case. Is it slower? Stiffer? Softer? And once you'd finished telling us all about these real things, which provide useful information (or at least a useful opinion), we could probably understand why you arrived at the "more control" conclusion. But if the ZJK ALC gave you more control in a way which doesn't interest me (or even affects me negatively), I could disagree and say that the TBS has more control for me. And who is wrong? No one, because it's all just subjective opinion.

this i would agree but on other things if you cannot establish some sort of a baseline of comparison what other info would you be able to draw from about an equipment if you cannot test it yourself? it also depends on the one describing the equipment. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:30am
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

First, I'm not championing the TB ZLC. I do like it, but everybody has their own preference.

@tt4me - I agree that we should not confuse the Younglings. So lets not.

You agree that we cannot take the bat out of our table tennis (TT) control system, then replace it with a clip board which in its most simplest form has similar properties to a pistol grip TT bat. Try playing with a toilet brush... Then expect the players' superior skill to shine above the equipment as though it's irrelevant.

Now, we are not discussing Closed Loop Automatic Control Systems here. We are discussing Closed Loop MANUAL Control Systems, where the bat is an integral part of the control system. The feedback is provided via our senses - feel, sight and sound (no taste and no smell) and using the most powerful computer that exits, the human brain, to perform calculations and the necessary corrections whilst playing with the TT bat.

Gears is not that bad a laymans term to describe a rubbers performance either. It's typically a way of describing the non-linear features of a rubber. I think most of us understand what gears mean and it's our sport. COR is ok for golf drivers, but it doesn't portray any adjectives about feel, hard, soft, captive, control etc. ...

So lets not confuse the Younglings and please take the table tenns Closed Loop Manual Contol System to the Engineering forum. You might get a surprise about it's plausibility.   

why are some people so obsessed with using their own correct term than just use the words "power", "control", "speed" etc.. even if you are forced to accept this usage of terms, would that make you play better? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:45am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

Originally posted by AndySmith AndySmith wrote:

Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

saying an equipment has good control is one thing, saying that an equipment has good control compared to other equipment is another.  


Comparisons have better value, yes. But only if you say what you were doing to draw the comparison. If you said that the ZJK ALC actually does have better control that the TBS, for example, I'd hope you would say WHY you think this is the case. Is it slower? Stiffer? Softer? And once you'd finished telling us all about these real things, which provide useful information (or at least a useful opinion), we could probably understand why you arrived at the "more control" conclusion. But if the ZJK ALC gave you more control in a way which doesn't interest me (or even affects me negatively), I could disagree and say that the TBS has more control for me. And who is wrong? No one, because it's all just subjective opinion.


this i would agree but on other things if you cannot establish some sort of a baseline of comparison what other info would you be able to draw from about an equipment if you cannot test it yourself? it also depends on the one describing the equipment. 


Of course it does. This is why experienced equipment testers tend to be the ones I listen to the most on this forum. If an 18 year old with 6 months experience of playing the sport says that the TBS has more control than the Allround Classic, I would be sceptical.

Yogi - if you said "this blade has more control than a TBS", you need to say why you think that is. I find I have more control with blades which are softer than the TBS, you might experience the opposite. Without an attempt to say WHY you find the blade to have more control than the TBS, what use is your comment for me? In fact, it's misleading, isn't it? This isn't a personal dig, I find that you explain things well in your reviews.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:51am
@ Yogi_Bear - The history of this thread prompted my reply.

The whole discussion is about Control Ratings For Equipment and I have previously given my input.

Generally we would hope to be able to read the manufacturers description or ratings and have an understanding of how blade and rubber combinations would play.

Discussing the "Control" issue is very interesting. ...

Edited by CraneStyle - 02/10/2014 at 2:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:51am
Originally posted by yogi_bear yogi_bear wrote:

Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

First, I'm not championing the TB ZLC. I do like it, but everybody has their own preference.

@tt4me - I agree that we should not confuse the Younglings. So lets not.

You agree that we cannot take the bat out of our table tennis (TT) control system, then replace it with a clip board which in its most simplest form has similar properties to a pistol grip TT bat. Try playing with a toilet brush... Then expect the players' superior skill to shine above the equipment as though it's irrelevant.

Now, we are not discussing Closed Loop Automatic Control Systems here. We are discussing Closed Loop MANUAL Control Systems, where the bat is an integral part of the control system. The feedback is provided via our senses - feel, sight and sound (no taste and no smell) and using the most powerful computer that exits, the human brain, to perform calculations and the necessary corrections whilst playing with the TT bat.

Gears is not that bad a laymans term to describe a rubbers performance either. It's typically a way of describing the non-linear features of a rubber. I think most of us understand what gears mean and it's our sport. COR is ok for golf drivers, but it doesn't portray any adjectives about feel, hard, soft, captive, control etc. ...

So lets not confuse the Younglings and please take the table tenns Closed Loop Manual Contol System to the Engineering forum. You might get a surprise about it's plausibility.   


why are some people so obsessed with using their own correct term than just use the words "power", "control", "speed" etc.. even if you are forced to accept this usage of terms, would that make you play better? 


It's about communication yogi. About equipment. The ability to state something, without misleading the reader. The ability to ask questions, and receive answers, which are actually helpful. This whole thread isn't really about technique.

If someone asked you to find a blade like the TBS, but with more control, what would you do? Just give them a list of slower blades? What would assiduous do? Tell them to get a ZLC, which has the most controllisimos of any blade, apparently? Or perhaps ask the questioner what they are currently struggling with, and make a recommendation from there (even if that recommendation is to keep the blade and train more)? You need to know what aspects of their game are they finding lacking in control before you can make a meaningful suggestion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:58am
@ AndySmith - Surely there is mileage in a beginner reviewing equipment. As long as they get the context right and are honest. Also, when you say experienced, do you mean to the forum world..? Because it's not the whole world.

Someone who's used or reviewed lots of blades might not be able to "hit a barn door with a banjo"...

Edited by CraneStyle - 02/10/2014 at 2:03am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:15am
at this point i believe logic can no longer be used to win this argument as nobody will concede defeat. 

Not a lot of people can write a good definition (or constitution), but I am sure that even the least sophisticated users intuitively understand what control mean - the ability to deliver the ball where you want. And I don't think any of this gibberish can change that. For you see, the word control has meant something for thousands of years and two people with momentous confusion can really do nothing to change that. 

On a side note.. i found this guy cranestyle agreeing with me.. and I am wondering if it is accidental that he owns two TB ZLC. Maybe not. I think an owner of a TB ZLC knows what control really is. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:17am
Originally posted by CraneStyle CraneStyle wrote:

@ AndySmith - Surely there is mileage in a beginner reviewing equipment. As long as they get the context right and are honest. Also, when you say experienced, do you mean to the forum world..? Because is not the whole world.

Someone who's used or reviewed lots of blades might not be able to "hit a barn door with a banjo"...


Absolutely there is value. And experience is no guarantee of success. I'm not vastly experienced, and I'm sure I've missed a few barn doors in my time. But yes, I would be sceptical about how useful their info is to me, because the language of equipment reviews is generally about comparisons, and the more comparisons you can make the more potentially relevant it becomes. I would be sceptical, but I wouldn't dismiss it.

But on the subject of control - I would be HIGHLY sceptical of a beginner saying that they think a blade is uncontrollable, for example. How much of that is due to simple lack of experience and training? Anything OFF- or above might be uncontrollable for a beginner coming from a premade with no training. As a reader, it's difficult to know one way or another, so I err on the side of caution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AndySmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:22am
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

at this point i believe logic can no longer be used to win this argument as nobody will concede defeat. 

Not a lot of people can write a good definition (or constitution), but I am sure that even the least sophisticated users intuitively understand what control mean - the ability to deliver the ball where you want. And I don't think any of this gibberish can change that. For you see, the word control has meant something for thousands of years and two people with momentous confusion can really do nothing to change that. 

On a side note.. i found this guy cranestyle agreeing with me.. and I am wondering if it is accidental that he owns two TB ZLC. Maybe not. I think an owner of a TB ZLC knows what control really is. 


LOL - awesome, as ever.

I almost agree with your definition! It's the ability to deliver the ball where and how you want. But unfortunately, this has more to do with a player's skill level and style than the equipment. Some people will find it easier to "deliver the ball where and how they want" with slower, flexier equipment than you, whereas you find it easier to do so with stiff/fast/hard.

Control has meant something for thousands of years, but "TT equipment control" is a recent invention with little to no meaning.

If you think your assertion is logical, please link to a authoritative resource which backs up your claim of "control = hard/stiff". I think you're just making stuff up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:50am
@ assidiuos - I previously said I wasn't using this thread to champion the TB ZLC.

Well... I think it's an awesome blade with great touch "control" and enough reserve power when you need it.

It works for my rubber combination(s) and playing style.

Couldn't resist it...

Edited by CraneStyle - 02/10/2014 at 2:05am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 11:08am
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Not a lot of people can write a good definition (or constitution), but I am sure that even the least sophisticated users intuitively understand what control mean - the ability to deliver the ball where you want.  
 
OK, so let's say your beloved TB ZLC has a control rating of X, and my Galaxy U4 has Y. Obviously you think X>Y. Are you absolutely sure that, if I switch to TB ZLC, the percentages of the shots I want to execute will be higher? Because I think that has more to do with me than the blades.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 11:31am
@Yogi,

the reason at the very beginning of the thread I made an issue of the term "control" is that manufacturer's write numbers for control of rubbers and blades, and I suggested that they are more or less meaningless since they are never defined, it is never said how they are measured, and in the worst case are nothing more than a crude marketing scheme.  Andy gave a nice example of how they are misused in the case of certain blades in TB series, possibly to justify increasing price for newer models.

I think that equipment is very obviously relevant.  People are more likely to execute their intentions with some setups than others.  People with a lot of experience by trial and error tend to make rational decisions, more so the better they are at playing and the more stuff they have tried (both of those things matter). I think that CraneStyle and tt4me proposed the best idea, which is that control in a blade/rubber means that what you get out is a very predictable function of what you put in.  I  added that the output:input relationship should not be too steep for human motor systems to deal with on any part of the function (based on the one week that I tried to play with a Xiom Axelo).  The Crane/tt4me idea incorporates the speed of the blade but it is not all there is to their idea, and it accepts that a badly made slow blade could be crappy.  Crane and tt4me emphasized that the relationship doesn't have to be a straight line, but it needs to be consistent and predictable since our brain can compute well enough to deal with a curved relationship -- but Crane emphasizes that brain is part of it and I add here that so is the fine control of the motor system.  The relationship can't be chaotic.  Implicit in this is that you wouldn't be able to express that relationship with a single number unless the relationship is a straight line, --- which it isn't.

Adding to that, I think that for a blade, the function should be the same for a greater portion of the surface of the blade, so that slightly mishit shots have output:input functions not too different from shots hit in the optimum part of the blade.  Better players who mishit less, may be less concerned about that. 

At the very beginning I also pointed out that properties of a setup ideal for execution of one type of shot are not going to be ideal for all of the shots in the sport.  And yet all of the shots go into winning or losing.  So this is another reason why it is difficult to accept a single number for "control".

In other words, the only way to know if you will like a setup is to hit with it yourself.

And then on this thread, there is the usual extraneous stuff.  For example, Assiduous implying that his deeply intuitive knowledge of science came from his attending law school  -- who knew? -- and Igor's usual claims of sexual vigor (which immediately reminded me of Sochi toilettes).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 11:35am
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

at this point i believe logic can no longer be used to win this argument as nobody will concede defeat. 
You have conceded defeat if you can't make your case on an engineering forum.  This is not the right place to argue about control and controllability.  Most people couldn't judge who is right or wrong especially since they have been 'brain washed' by the manufacturers.

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Not a lot of people can write a good definition (or constitution), but I am sure that even the least sophisticated users intuitively understand what control mean - the ability to deliver the ball where you want.
That is a TT specific definition.  You can look 'control' up on Wikipedia.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CraneStyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 11:45am
@ Baal - You summarise the thread like its a Soap Opera. Loving it...

But I don't think tt4me agrees with my attempt to theorise TT control...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 12:13pm
Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Not a lot of people can write a good definition (or constitution), but I am sure that even the least sophisticated users intuitively understand what control mean - the ability to deliver the ball where you want.  
 
OK, so let's say your beloved TB ZLC has a control rating of X, and my Galaxy U4 has Y. Obviously you think X>Y. Are you absolutely sure that, if I switch to TB ZLC, the percentages of the shots I want to execute will be higher? Because I think that has more to do with me than the blades.

I don't know how to say this without screaming or insulting anybody. I said it 10 times and nobody even cares, and they keep talking about other, irrelevant things. 

I am talking about the blade control. How much IQ does it take to understand this little statement? I don't know, but its discouraging to see that many come short. 

The blade is not the only variable in this game. Who has ever claimed that it is? 

Yes, rubber can change everything.. put long pips on my TB ZLC and i won't have a clue which direction the ball is gona go.

Player skill is another, perhaps the most important, but completely independent factor. Ma Long can take a stinky Primorac and still land all of his ball much more accurately than me with TB ZLC + Rhyzm. 

What else is there.. i don't know.. footwork, luck.. it takes a lot of things that affect your game and even your accuracy. 

But you have to drop really down low to deny that the blade, AND THE BLADE ALONE, has its own , UNIQUE properties that make it easier or harder to deliver the ball where you want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 12:14pm
Over thinking this "control" thing maybe? Wink

A basic definition of control might be the ability to keep the ball on the table, i.e. make less mistakes in one's shots.  So, it certainly makes sense that a slower blade can give you control.  It also makes sense that a blade with a bigger "sweet spot" would give you control because it supposedly would give a more consistent response, and thus less errors are made.  It might also make sense that the "feel" of the blade may give more feedback to the user, and thus lead to less mistakes on "touch" shots.  All of these things could be factors in judging overall control.

This definition of control doesn't mean the ability to win a point, as winning a point is really a balance between power and control, which is individual to the style of the player as to how they use power and control to win.

Of course these control ratings are arbitrary.  It's a tool to sell a product, and as such I don't think manufacturers are interested in having a subjective rating for comparing to competing products.  Rather, they know that consumers are looking for something to fit their needs, so they advertise that their product has "more control" or "more speed" or "more whatever" to attract them to that product.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 12:17pm
So please stop this ... well what if put different rubber.. well what if I that blade doesn't work for me.. If you want to talk about rubber control, start a different thread, and I will give you a few pages about Rhyzm. If you want to talk about your terrible skill level, put a video so we can laugh at you. If you want to talk about spin, another thread. If you can't talk about the blade alone.. your post will be just spam. 
puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZingyDNA Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 12:23pm
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Originally posted by ZingyDNA ZingyDNA wrote:

Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Not a lot of people can write a good definition (or constitution), but I am sure that even the least sophisticated users intuitively understand what control mean - the ability to deliver the ball where you want.  
 
OK, so let's say your beloved TB ZLC has a control rating of X, and my Galaxy U4 has Y. Obviously you think X>Y. Are you absolutely sure that, if I switch to TB ZLC, the percentages of the shots I want to execute will be higher? Because I think that has more to do with me than the blades.

I don't know how to say this without screaming or insulting anybody. I said it 10 times and nobody even cares, and they keep talking about other, irrelevant things. 
 
 
I don't think you get it. It's me who's gonna use the TB ZLC and the U4. And I'll use the same rubbers, have the same skills, footwork, luck, touch etc as, you know, me. So all those factors are taken out of the equation, leaving blade control alone.
 
Now I ask you again: Are you absolutely sure that, if I switch to TB ZLC, the percentages of the shots I want to execute will be higher?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 12:47pm
Re: TB-ZLC being a control blade, wait for the opinion clouds to decisively turn direction.
Originally posted by assiduous assiduous wrote:

Man, Limba is 10 x better outer ply than the dead koto :)


JK!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 6:14pm
baal, i never disagreed on your points about manufacturer's rating. i have even stated that it is hard to quantify the ratings of an equipment into numbers which i believe are too vague. what i am against is wasting discussing on why we should not use the layman's term for speed, power and control. 

i think even if the ratings of def- to off+ are not specific they are much better using than saying that a rubber has 135 soeed and 90 control which is even harder to understand
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:40pm
I've been waiting in patience for this topic and the ensuing debate to come up that my bottom gets itchy. This gets me all agitated and tingling all over! Yay!!

Quote At the end of the day, I think control is a term related to table tennis psychology more than equipment mechanics. This does not make it less real, just not what we imagine it is. So the sense of control would depend a lot on what kinds of shots player A plays most often compared to player B. That means it is is a term that cannot be standardized easily.

Am I wrong about this?



You're certainly not wrong. It's just that Akihiro Kitada(北田 明浩), Kaoru Nishida(西田 薫) and Kazuyuki Kojima(小島 和幸) at Butterfly think otherwise.

In one of Butterfly's most recent patent application, the three inventors set out in great detail a table tennis rubber with better speed and spin performance, yet without a compromise in control. The objective is achieved mainly through a thinner topsheet[which the ESN has done before], greatly reducing the energy loss of the ball and thus makes possible the improvement of speed, spin as well as control.

Up front they present their definitions of the performance of speed, spin, and control in an inverted rubber, which are the capability to hit faster balls, the ease of imparting spin on the ball, and the reliability of hitting the shot in the direction as intended by the player. They further postulate that a greater contact area translates to higher spin capability, and that through the topsheet "biting" into the sponge the overall compressive stiffness of the entire sheet is reduced. In turn, control is enhanced as a result of higher contact time.

On the other hand, the elasticity of inverted rubber tends to drop when the topsheet compresses into the sponge, and thus energy loss of the ball is likely to occur. When that happens, lower ball speed results. To tackle that problem, adjustment in the properties of rubber material and pip shape with the aim of improving spin and speed has been proposed before, referencing the Sriver, T05, and Tackiness C. However, that approach has hit the ceiling as performance nears its limit. Keeping the quality and the yield rate has also become a dilemma.

The approach they propose involves several groups of topsheets produced of various compositions, from natural to butadiene to isoprene rubber, with all sorts of thickness, pip geometry, spacing and density, are paired with sponges of different hardness. To measure the speed, spin and control of the specimens, a robot is set up to shoot Butterfly 3-star balls at a speed of 7.5m/s and spin of 61rpm at the rubber attached with double-sided tape on a 45° inclined plane. Memrecam fx K4 high speed camera is used to capture 10ms before and after impact. Those images are then fed through software analysis in the calculation of ball speed and spin. From there, energy efficiency and shot direction for each specimen are calculated.

Energy efficiency denotes hitting power. It is expressed as an average percentage of the combination of translational and rotational kinetic energy before and after impact. The higher the value, the less the energy loss. Less energy loss translates to faster and spinnier shots. Smashes, speed drives, loop drives, chops and services become easier to execute. Shot direction denotes control of the rubber, which is expressed as the average degree between the ball's horizontal and vertical velocities after impact. The higher the value, the closer the ball trajectory is to the stroke direction. In other words, as the value increases, it is more likely for shots to head in the same directions when they hit the racket at the same angle. Players therefore experience a higher shot stability. And as a result, curve shots are easier to produce, cutting down mistakes during rallies.

The acquired data indicate that those topsheets whose thickness(without accounting for pip height) is below .6mm fare better in energy efficiency and shot direction. Those within the range of .2-.6mm, or even .3-.6mm are preferred in consideration of rubber strength.

PS Fixed a typo
PPS Fixed wording

Edited by zeio - 06/27/2014 at 4:37pm
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote assiduous Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 9:59pm
Man, this zeio guy keeps bringing these scientific studies that are actually about table tennis directly. You can compare how different this above is to the stuff tt4me typed himself, where he didn't even pretend to make a reference to table tennis, but relied that he can get you to trust him if he shocks you with his immense knowledge of valves. Perhaps if we decide to make a hydraulic paddle we can find him useful. 


puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zeio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:18pm
I am flattered, assiduous. I still have quite a few other exciting studies and patents up my sleeve. It must be made clear that I wasn't really all that interested in these things until pnachtwey(now tt4me) started the "paddle mass and speed" thread some years ago that got me hooked on. So on that I must commend him.
Viscaria FL - 91g
+ Neo H3 2.15 Blk - 44.5g(55.3g uncut bare)
+ Hexer HD 2.1 Red - 49.3g(68.5g 〃 〃)
= 184.8g
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JacekGM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:19pm
This Butterfly "patent" is a PCT patent application at A1 stage, not a granted patent...yet...
(1) Juic SBA (Fl, 85 g) with Bluefire JP3 (red max) on FH and 0.6 mm DR N Desperado on BH; (2) Yinhe T7 (Fl, 87 g) with Bluefire M3 (red 2.0) on FH and 0.6 mm 755 on BH.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/07/2014 at 10:30pm
Assiduous, have you made your case to an engineering forum yet?
I just don't think it is necessary to argue with the uneducated about the fact that rubbers and blades do not have power or control.  People do.

Quote
where he didn't even pretend to make a reference to table tennis,

This is a blantant lie.  Look at my first few responses to this thread.





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