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Color of hinoki wood

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loop+loop View Drop Down
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    Posted: 06/28/2007 at 2:10am
Why do some hinoki blades have wood that are brown instead of the normal light yellow?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 5:18am
Interesting question. Hinoki quality is always a mistery to me.  Mine (I have 3) are all light yellow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stephen chung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 5:50am
YEah,,my KTS is pinkish
Blade: Butterfly Custom made 1ply Hinoki 10mm
Rubber: Bryce Hard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 7:06am
For crying out loud, I thought Hinoki was a dark brown!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrick1v Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 8:20am
actually hinoki (cypress) wood is not a real cypress but a cedar wood so dont be surprise with the different colours
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 8:28am

My favourite blade was Jonyer Hinoki. I always meet it with seasoned yellow (a bit darker) hinoki. Recently I played with a Andro Ch.S�ss Hinoki. I have worn away 7 pcs. because the upper ply is very instable. Some of them endured a week some a month then started to splinter very much. The last two has darker, seasoned upper ply like darker pine and these are very stable.

Since I have been involved in making rackets I know that quality, origination and age of hinoki/cypress veneers effects on its colour.  (vice-versa) And although it is a very good raw material very-very hard to work with.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote petermoo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 9:59am
PLLsystem, Can you tell me the difference between american cypress and Japanese cypress?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 10:13am
I think it is not the coutry that counts. From both places you can get bad or good cypress. The narrower fibres you can see the better quality the veneer has. If the pattern is wider but darker it is also good for bat ply.
When I get veneers I am not informed if it is originated from Japan or America
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrick1v Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 10:16pm
the japanese cypress is actually a cedar not a real cypress look at grains similar to cedar grains
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrick1v Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/28/2007 at 10:18pm
port orford cedar is very similar to the japanese cypress
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2007 at 4:48am

 Loop+loop, here is some posts from another forum about hinoki, I hope you will like it.

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Posted: 05/07/2006 at 11:24am | IP Logged | Report Post

 


This is my first post and I have been living and working in Japan for about 2 years now. I have joined a table tennis club and there are many good J-Pen players in my club. Many of the players in my club favor Kiso Hinoki J-pen rackets made by Kokutaku, Nittaku, and Darker. When I first joined the club I had never heard of Kokutaku, but as I started to try out some of their Kokutaku rackets I realized that the Kiso Hinoki quality and build was often better than those of Butterfly and other J-pen rackets. I found out from my table tennis coach who owns a Pro Table Tennis shop that the reason why Kokutaku rackets are often better in quality and build is because they have a good stock of high quality Kiso Hinoki wood that is between 230 to 250 years old and in the process of making their J-pen rackets they dry the Kiso Hinoki for 6 years as opposed to many other companies that only dry their Kiso Hinoki for 1 or sometimes 3 years. I have several Kokutaku rackets and I believe that they are very good and I would recommend people to try one if they want to. Sorry for the long post. :)

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 malvin


Many people in my club really like their Darker blades due to the quality and price. I have a Darker Speed 90 and I think it is nice and worth the money as opposed to Butterfly's J-pens. Butterfly blades are sometimes a little on the heavy side due to the drying process which is often only 1 year because they want to mass produce their blades quickly. Overall Darker is great and actually from what I have seen and heard, more people in Japan prefer Darker, Kokutaku, and Nittaku Kiso Hinoki rackets as opposed to Butterfly's Kiso Hinoki rackets.


malvin


I would say that it is about 50 50 in my club and when it is time to change blades, most people in my club are kind of brand loyal and try to get the same model again. But some of the older members of my club often say they like Kokutaku a little more because the blades are a bit lighter than some Darker blades and they don't mind paying 2000 or 3000 yen for a blade they will use for probably another 5 or 6 years. I hope this information helps.

 

 

 

 malvin


I think one of the cool things about playing and buying table tennis in Japan is actually going to the pro table tennis shops and picking out the racket, especially the J-pen you want. I think I am in a unique situation because my coach who is also a former champion of Japan has a close relationship with the president of Kokutaku. Every year he and the Kokutaku president get together and they negotiate a price and quantity of special Kokutaku Kiso Hinoki J-pens. My coach owns a pro table tennis shop called Hero Sports and every year Kokutaku makes 20 special J-pens called the Hero Special and it is actually much higher in quality and weighs less the average 10mm J-pen. I got mine from his shop and my J-pen is 10.15mm, but it is only 81 grams which is quite rare for such a thick J-pen. Since I use to have a Butterfly Kim Taek, I think for the money and quality Kokutaku, Darker, and Nittaku are often better in quality and price than Butterlfy's J-pens.

malvin


Actually from what I have seen Carbon J-pen's are not as popular as as 1 ply Kiso Hinoki blades. But I have seen some people use the Butterfly Lendido, which is a Arylate Carbon racket. I have looked at many new table tennis catalogues and think their is a reemphasis on thicker 1 Ply Kiso Hinoki rackets now because the seems to be a shortage of really high quality Kiso Hinoki now. It is illegal to cut down a Kiso Hinoki tree that is 300 years old and older in Japan. The best Kiso Hinoki wood you can buy is now about 230 to 250 years old and Kokutaku currently has the best stock of this old Kiso Hinoki wood. I hope this information is helpful.

 

 

 

 

 

malvin


I think quality of a Kiso Hinoki is merited from how straight the lines are are, how dense the lines are and how long it has been dried (weight). In my new Kokutaku catalogue it advertises a new 10mm Super Cho 1D100 model. The advertised price of this racket is 20,000 yen before tax, but I think iruiru gives you 20% discount on that so it would be like 16,000 yen. My coach just got his new Kokutaku goods in last week, so iruiru might not have received their new Kokutaku goods yet. About weight, it is often better to get a lighter Kiso Hinoki J-pen because your rubber might be heavy, but maybe not. The reason why older Kiso Hinoki is more expensive is because their is often higher grain density and the wood is often dried for a longer period of time, thus reducing the weight of the racket. I think a good way to maybe get a good 10mm Kokutaku or Darker racket is by emailing iruiru about the availability of the racket and if they get a batch of them, ask them to weigh them out and ask them to look for the one with the straightest lines. The most important thing is that all the lines are pointing in the same direction and personally I like my 10mm J-pens 85 grams or less. But actually finding a 10mm Kokutaku or Darker under 85 grams is pretty difficult because even in a batch of 10mm J-pens, the range can go from 78 to 108 grams. In the batch of Kokutaku Hero Special rackets their was a range from 79 to 97 grams. The reason I did not select the 78 gram one was because the lines were not as straight and pointing in the same direction as the one I got that is 81 grams. Overall 2 or 3 grams really does not make that big of a difference, but anything over 5 usually makes a difference. So in selecting a 10mm J-pen whether it is Kokutaku or Darker, try to find one that 1.) has really straight lines and the lines are densely packed together and 2.) try not to get one that is too heavy. I truthfully like Kokutaku J-pens a little more, but I also have a Darker Speed 90 and think that it is an excellent racket also. So depending on your budget for 10mm Kiso Hinoki J-pens, you can go with either Darker or Kokutaku. If you have any more questions please ask because I am more than happy to share what I know. smiley1


malvin


About whether to go with a 9mm or 10mm Kiso Hinoki racket, I think it really depends on your style of game. Both the 9mm and 10mm are great for looping if you have the technique down, but the 9mm usually provides more control for more technical shots and for easier net play as opposed to a 10mm Kiso Hinoki racket which is often more powerful, but control is sacrificed. If you play like Ryu Seung Min, then 10mm is the way to go, but if you play more like Chiang Peng Lung, then 9mm is the way to go. I talked to my coach today and asked him what table tennis companies get the best Kiso Hinoki and he said 1. Kokutaku, 2. Nittaku, 3. Darker, and 4. Butterfly. I also have a Nittaku Cho Takusen A racket which is 9mm and it is very very good and great for a control game, but enough power when needed. But another option to consider is a 9.5mm racket. You can ask iruiru to call Kokutaku and have them make you a custom Super Cho 1D100 Kiso Hinoki J-pen for you that is 9.5mm if you are willing to pay 20,000 yen for this racket. Please post more questions if you have any more and I will do my best to answer them.

 

malvin


The 10mm Super Cho Kiso Hinoki blade from Kokutaku is not available on iruiru yet. It is interesting because not all stores get or carry Kokutaku rackets. For example I went to a table tennis pro shop in Sendai yesterday and they did not carry any Kokutaku products. But between choosing between the Darker Speed 90 9mm and Kokutaku 9mm, I would ask iruiru to look for the straightness and density of the lines first, then weigh the rackets out. If you are looking into a 9mm, try to find one that is between 78 to 85 grams, otherwise it can get heavy when you put rubber on it. 1 ply Kiso Hinoki blades really vary from blade to blade, so based on iruiru's inventory of Kokutaku and Darker blades, ask for a racket which has straight lines that are pointing up in the same direction and that the lines are densely packed together. I honestly think if you can spend a little extra money, get the 9mm blade that has the best straight line and weight ratio. But really you actually can not go wrong with either blade, so email iruiru what you want and ask if they have that or those rackets in stock. Please ask more questions because I like to help you out.

malvin


I think it usually takes about 1 week or 10 business days for a company to restock a certain product. I think if you want to get a quality 1 ply Kiso Hinoki racket, the process can be quite long and the questions can be many. I was a J-pen player for 12 years, but I switched to shakehand a few years ago. I still love playing with J-pen and I teach kids in my local table tennis club on Sunday nights. Over the years I learned many things about Kiso Hinoki rackets and I am very happy to share with you what I know. smiley1

smiley1malvin


I am not sure about JUIC 1 ply Kiso Hinoki J-pens because I have never seen it in a store and I have only seen them in catalogues. I have seen the JUIC 1 ply shake hand and it is really heavy (about 95 to 105 grams) for the racket alone. This happens because JUIC only dries tries Kiso Hinoki 1 Plys for a short period of time. In comparison to Darker or Kokutaku, go with Kokutaku or Darker all the way because of they have better quality Kiso Hinoki.


malvin


Hello Adib,

The difference between Cypress and Bty Senkoh 95 is that the Senkoh 95 is 9.5mm and the Kiso Hinoki is actually not that soft at all. The kiso hinoki quality for the Senkoh 95 is actally not that good, but definately not the worst I have seen. Bty Cypress is 9mm and the quality of the blade is much better than Senkoh 95. But for the money and quality go with Kokutaku, Nittaku, or Darker for 1 ply Kiso Hinoki blades. I hope this information is helpful. smiley1

malvin

 

 

 

Yes I am in complete agreement with ryno. If you want a top grade 1 ply Kiso Hinoki blade, there is a price correlation with the quality of the blade. My Hero Special cost me 20,000 yen and it is the best J-pen I have ever tried. The power, feel, and control are unmatched even to other J-pens that are about 10,000 yen. The Xiom Ryu Seung Min Platinum is a top grade racket and therefore there is a high price tag with it. My Hero Special is actually better than my old KTS because it has equal power, it lighter, more feel, and definitely more control.smiley1

malvin
Hello aeoliah,

The Darker Speed 90 in 9mm and 10mm is generally about the same in quality, but Darker Speed 90 is cheaper and more often than not, lighter. Both blades are good, but if it was me, I would go for the Darker Speed 90, but I have seen some really good KTSs but those are the ones that came out long ago from Butterfly and costed only 13,000 yen. The current offerings of the KTS are not of the same quality as the older models of KTS and I only know collectors who have this older model of KTS. But Darker Speed 90 is medium soft in my opinion and with good control and power.

About the Kokutaku Laser Carbon. The Laser Carbon has more control and is lighter than the Bty Timo Boll Spirit because there is also fiberglass mixed in with the carbon, which gives the racket a better balance of stability and control than the Bty TBS. The Laser Carbon weighs between 78 to 82 grams and the average TBS is between 85 to 91 grams. Since there is carbon in the Laser Carbon, their is that "pink" sound that comes when hitting the ball on the racket. Both the Laser Carbon and TBS are medium soft, but the Laser Carbon is softer than the TBS. I get more feel from the Laser Carbon than with the TBS. Overall I think the Laser Carbon is much better than TBS, even though TBS is a good racket. I hope this information is helpful. smiley1


malvin


Hello aeoliah,

I am sorry I actually do not have any pictures of Kiso Hinoki blades that are not straight. It is actually pretty easy to see because if you look at the face of your blade that the lines are swerving in either left or right then that is not straight. Truthfully most Butterlfy Kiso Hinoki blades except for the KTS do not have straight lines. And if you look on the top of your blade and some lines are pointing in different directions, then your lines are not straight. Most blades that see under 10,000 yen are usually not the best Kiso Hinoki because the lines are swerving and pointing in different directions or the growth lines are inconsistent and then are big and small gaps between the lines that indicate that the Kiso Hinoki wood did not grow evenly each year. Truthfully I do not believe Butterlfy has great Kiso Hinoki, but Kokutaku, Nittaku, and Darker have the best stock. If you compare these brands to any other Butterfly Kiso Hinoki racket that is not KTS, you will see what I mean. I hope this information is helpful.

malvin


Hello hip66,

Most people I know that play with 1 ply Hinoki blades speed glue like me. I am not too familiar with the Yasaka Leopard, so I am not sure if I can give an assessment of the blade because I have never seen one in person. I do play with a 1 ply Kiso Hinoki shakehand blade and it is 7mm. I speed glue and if the Darker Tanpan is anything like my blade then you are getting a very stable blade with excellent ball touch and feel. My blade has a good balance of power, ball control, and feel and it is also very light at 75 grams. But my blade was a custom order so I am not sure the weight of the Darker Tanpan because 1 ply Hinoki blades all differ in weight, feel, and power. I have been experimenting with Chinese rubber which is sometimes a little heavy, but can produce a lot of spin. I am not sure how thick the Darker Tanpan is so I think as long as the blade is not 10mm then you should probably expect a well balanced racket that is not an OFF+ blade, but more of a OFF- or OFF blade. I hope this information helps because I will never tell anyone something about a blade I have never tried.



malvin
Hello Shalashashka,

From looking at the pics of your racket, it looks like a quality racket. I believe that Nittaku has a good reputation for making good 1 ply Kiso Hinoki blades and they have a good stock of Kiso Hinoki wood. The Rorin series rackets are suppose to be a little harder for more speed. I think the Nittaku Cho Tokusen A is also a top grade Kiso Hinoki blade. But I think you have a good and quality blade there.


Hi Malvin,

Thanks for providing so much valuable information on Kiso Hinoki wood. I learned a lot. I have a few questions to ask you too as well. I got a collection of 1-ply Hinoki Jpen blades. I noticed some uneven color on the face of of my TSP Dynam and Nittaku Rorin. Basically some part of the blade is more reddish than the rest. Do you think this non uniformity in color will have any effect on the blade performance?

Also I see that the spacing between the wood grain lines on Rorin is much denser compared to the Dynam. The lines on Rorin are about 0.5mm apart and just under 1mm on Dynam. My question here is that the blade should have a softer feel if the lines are packed denser or it's the other way around?

Thanks in advance,

 

malvin
Hi GenomicsKnight,

I think the discoloration of a Kiso Hinoki racket is nothing to worry about. In the drying process, it sometimes happens and it does not affect the performance of your racket, but cosmetically it is not as cool looking. About the density of lines. The higher the density of lines together, the better then racket is. But you also want the growth lines to have equal distance between each other because it shows that there was steady and even growth each year. The top blades are nice densely pack lines that have an equal amount of space between each line to indicate that the Kiso Hinoki tree grew evenly each year. It is interesting because I have sampled Kiso Hinoki blades that have a high density of lines that are closely packed together and blades where the lines are not as close together. About how this effects the softness or hardness of the racket really varies from racket to racket. Each racket is uniquely different and some rackets that have densely packed lines are a little harder, while some are a little softer. Each blade is unique and the softness and hardness of the racket is also based on personal preference.



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Posted: 07/02/2006 at 4:43am | IP Logged | Report Post

 


To all,

Hinoki is japanese cypress. There are other similar species known as false cypress. Kiso Hinoki is Japanese cypress that comes from that special region in central Japan. Not all cypress is hinoki and not all hinoki is kiso hinoki.

 

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Yes . . .  exactly.

Cypress is just the name of the type of tree.  The cypress we get from the US is sometimes called American Cypress, but is different from Hinoki since weather and growth patterns is much more different.  And in general contains larger growth rings.

In the US there is a close cousin to HINOKI,  It is called PORT ORFORD CEDAR.  It is not really a Cypress or a Cedar.  US only exports one type of wood in the whole form rather than milled and it is HINOKI.  And from the US market,  Japan consumes 85% of the US supply.

HINOKI is Japanese "False" Cypress.  Coming from the species Chamaecyparis.  And specifically the desirable one is the Kiso Hinoki coming from a specific region in Japan.  It contains much smaller growth rings which is much more desirable in the making of TT racquets.

On a side note.  This Hinoki is also in the same species as the trees used in making Bonsai trees.  Also, in Japan Hinoki is used in making buildings, the Emperor's palace, caskets, temples and bathes.  So there is a lot of competition for prime cuts of the good Hinoki.

 

 



 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2007 at 7:21am

Here is a website that sells Kokutaku blades. And I saw HINOKI wood too.


  http://www.iruiru.com/e/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ginko Tai Kim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2007 at 10:23pm

I always thought Kokutaku blades were just overpriced Friendship/LKT blades. Just compare there rubbers to the BTY range


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2007 at 10:48pm
I don't know about other types, but my Kokutaku Super Cho Tokusen 10 mm is the nicest blade for me so far, and despite the fact that I find thick blade uncomfortable, I like this blade very much (I am comparing this blade to Bty Cypress and Darker Speed 90 - 9 mm). I consider that it is worth the price for this specific blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ginko Tai Kim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2007 at 11:07pm
Ya perhaps the J-holds blades are very nice, but how about the Shakehands... I think they only have a small amount on offer that have the hinoki. Where as pretty much all the J-blades are Hinoki

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2007 at 8:58am

This site if you look at shakehands blades there is a couple that have the HINOKI cypruss.

http://www.iruiru.com/e/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2007 at 10:48am
I noted that recently more and more single ply hinoki shakehands are coming in the market.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2007 at 8:51am
I don't know about other types, but my Kokutaku Super Cho Tokusen 10 mm is the nicest blade for me so far, and despite the fact that I find thick blade uncomfortable, I like this blade very much (I am comparing this blade to Bty Cypress and Darker Speed 90 - 9 mm). I consider that it is worth the price for this specific blade.

 have you tried sanding down the blade some? I have a little about 4 inch by 4 inch square electric sander from Hardware Department that works fantastic to make a handle or blade a little smaller if done gently.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/01/2007 at 10:11pm
Do you mean sanding it to reduce the thickness ? That is something I will never try. If I want thinner blade, I will just buy one that is available in the market. The only thing I do is shaving the blade to accomodate my fingers. In fact I have one Schlager Carbon X-CS which is bigger than normal, and I would prefer it to be smaller, but I don't want to take any risk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2007 at 8:25am

I wasn't talking about making the blade "surface" (where you put the rubber) any thinner, ONLY the handle to make smaller as you are saying. I thought when you said "so thick" you were talking about the handle being uncomfortably thick.

The only thing I do is shaving the blade to accomodate my fingers
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote longreachlooper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2007 at 8:28am

In fact I have one Schlager Carbon X-CS which is bigger than normal, and I would prefer it to be smaller, but I don't want to take any risk.

Maybe you have a woodworker in your area?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jolan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2007 at 12:28pm
Originally posted by aeoliah aeoliah wrote:

I noted that recently more and more single ply hinoki shakehands are coming in the market.
It's because of us, freaking equipment junkies. What do you think butterfly, tibhar and other big bosses are doing all day long. They are reading TT forums trying to find out what are the tends. All they're reading lately is HINOKI, HINOKI, and HINOKI. So they go down to the factory and tell the workers : HINOKI, HINOKI and HINOKI. And then Aeoliah wonders : How come we have so much Hinoki new blades these times ? And then here it goes again and again.
Please stop the cycle for a while or there won't be any hinoki tree left on the kiso montains soon. Ayous is also good, koto not bad, american cedar mmmmmh, balsa cra....euh some fancy it.
PS : my septear has 7 plies some are clear yellow some are light brown some are goldish.
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Vega intro 2.0mm
Blade collection : https://photos.app.goo.gl/PrgCu5ib5RnhVXTn9
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote loop+loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/02/2007 at 11:53pm
aeoliah: Thanks for the references, but I'm hoping that someone with a good knowledge of wood supplies would enlighten us a little better. By the way, the blades I got  actually says Kiso Hinoki on the sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/03/2007 at 4:18am
Longreachlooper, I don't want to make it smaller even by a woodworking specialist, because I think Butterfly has calculated everything, including balance. If I change it, then it might not be nice to use anymore, and I don't want to take the risk.
Jcdi,
Agreed, it is us that is to be blamed. By the way I like the brother of your blade very much too, I even have 2 of them, one Violin J-pen and one Violin C-pen. If they make the penhold version of the Acoustic, I would certainly try it also.
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