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Mystery of single ply hinoki |
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Posted: 11/30/2007 at 9:23pm |
From all single ply hinoki blades that I have had, I tried to make my own definition on quality of the hinoki wood in connection with the performance, but it ends up in a failure: I still cannot get a satisfactory conclusion.
So far I tried Cypress R (9 mm), Darker Speed 90 (9,5 mm), Kokutaku Cho-super Cho Tokusen 10 mm and Nittaku Cho Tokusen 9 mm. My criteria of good hinoki: - tightly spaced grain - uniform colour - straight grain - no foreign inclusion (sometimes there are some orange/yellowish colour between grains). My Cypress did not match the criteria above and I have sold it. The other three match the criteria, but they give different performances. My Speed 90 (84 grams) is slow and unsatisfactory. My Kokutaku (80 grams) is the fastest. My Nittaku (80 grams) is a little bit slower than my Kokutaku but better control, and I like it best (for time being). From the above, I draw a conclusion that visually I cannot determine which one is better, because even tight, straight and clean grain can perform unsatisfactorily. The only factor that seems right at this moment is that the higher price gives better performance (from lowest to highest price for my blades: Darker - Nittaku - Kokutaku)This makes me wonder how the manufacturers determines which material has better quality. Any opinions ? |
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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Viscaria Super ALC C-Pen Rasanter C48 |
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everest81
Silver Member Joined: 09/28/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 637 |
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Do u plan to test a Xiom RSM? I wonder how that fits among other brands you have mentioned. Only Jpen i have ever tried is my current nittaku one, so really dunno how others perform, but I really like this one, as u mentionedm for good control and enough zip on the loops and offense.
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Member of Single ply Hinoki club
Kokutaku Cho-Super Cho Tokusen + Tenergy Max Collecting dust: Nittaku Cho tokusen 9mm, kokutaku cho tokusen 9mm, darker 90 10mm, ryno custom poc blade 10.2mm |
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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they sort them by sound i had a video some where of this old guy who worked for bfly tapping the blades by hand next to his ear and he would sort them like that after they had visually inspected them to determine grain quality.also the really good ones are generally dried longer. some of the bfly cypress special and darker 2001 were dried out for 15 years plus.air drying is where the cost comes in.you coat the wood after it is sawn in mineral oil then paint the ends ,stack it in a cool dark area were it is breezy and let i dry out for years. plus region were it comes from sets the price as well. japanese and american are considered the best then china and taiwan.My friend who gets the POC for me said that the majority of POC in america has been clear cut over the past 40 years due to the high demand in japan and korea.He lives in oregon where it grows and said all the old growth POC is almost gone.He also told me he thinks it is illegal in japan to cut down hinoki trees and this is why it is all been outsourced for the past 40 years .
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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xiom RSM is more of an all around blade not great in one aspect but not bad in any either
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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natural products are a wonderful thing.hinoki can be white to gold in coloration and those dark lines you don't like are just the winter lines in the wood some winter lines are just more pronounced than others due to harshness and as you have found out none of these factors play any role in performance it is all about sound.
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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normal
Member Joined: 06/15/2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 70 |
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A tree exposed to much wind has also stronger grains.
The soil quality is also very important. |
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Everest81,
For time being I don't intend to try RSM as some pictures I saw is not the kind that I like (there are one or two inclusions between grain, and at that price level it should not be like that. Ryno, It would be nice if we have the "ears" for it so we can choose a good one. At this point, I am hesitant to buy more single ply hinoki from different brands that I have not tried. If I have to buy single ply hinoki again, For time being I will stick to either Kokutaku 10 mm or Nittaku Cho Tokusen A. I am afraid of wasting money if I buy other type or brands. |
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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Viscaria Super ALC C-Pen Rasanter C48 |
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stephen chung
Super Member Joined: 02/25/2005 Location: Singapore Status: Offline Points: 99 |
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I have quite a few single ply hinoki blades myself. It seems that it is almost impossible to get the blade that you are looking for by just looking at the wood grain and the coloration. The only way that you can find out is to play with it.
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Blade: Butterfly Custom made 1ply Hinoki 10mm
Rubber: Bryce Hard |
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tiehwen
Premier Member Joined: 11/22/2006 Location: Bukan Bumiputra Status: Offline Points: 6434 |
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We here N. Americans dun have the "luxury" of going into any shop specialized in T/T equipment n ask to see/test a sample of latest jpen greats. I'm sure there r lots of good old t/t shops in some Far East Countries where they can display rows n rows, piles n piles of high end jpens/shkhnds for ur pleasure viewing.
Proportionally there r more jpens n cpens players in Far East/Asian countries.
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Agreed, trying is the best way to find out whether a blade is good or not. Unfortunately we cannot do this, the seller will only let us hold and look at it. I wish there is other way to find out. Tiehwen, good quality single ply penhold is also rare in my country, there is no single ply Xiom at my local retailers. So we end up buying from the internet. |
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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Viscaria Super ALC C-Pen Rasanter C48 |
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sydoz
Beginner Joined: 11/19/2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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You are more lucky them me ! We don't even have a tt store here. All we can do is place the order on the net and hope for the best.
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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At least we can ask for the pictures and weight before we buy from the net
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sydoz
Beginner Joined: 11/19/2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Can some one please confirm that Ms Suzuki is still giving out pictures and weights ? She won't do it for me.
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Did you ever asked for pictures and then did not buy without reason? If someone asks for pictures several times without buying, then naturally the seller will stop sending pictures.
What I do is I ask if she has the weight I want. If it is available, then (only then) I will ask for the picture, and if the grain is ok (normally it is ok) then I confirm the order. So far I have bought more than 6 blades. |
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sydoz
Beginner Joined: 11/19/2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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No. I would never do things like that.
This is what happened. I purchased a Koku Cho Tokusen without asking for anything. When the blade arrived, I found the grains are not straight like some of your blades, so I sent her an email to offer to buy another one provided it is around 80g with good staight grains. She replied that they don't keep any stock and would order from the supplier when an order is received. May be she had misunstood my intention and got into a defensive mode.
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sydoz
Beginner Joined: 11/19/2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Recently I purchased a Galaxy 982 Jpen single ply juniper ( Canadian hinoki equivalent). It has all the characteristics of a good single ply hinoki blade in both look and play. It is 8mm and very fast. The only problem is that it is 102 g in weight. |
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Perhaps it is better that way, if it is too light, then there is a risk of cracks because it is so thin. If it is heavy, it means it is denser and stronger (I hope). I don't know about juniper, but there have been two cases where 8,5 mm single ply hinoki develops crack by itself.
Regarding Kokutaku Cho-Super Cho Tokusen 10 mm (assuming that you are referring to this one), it is true that iruiru does not carry stock for this item, this is a special order because Kokutaku only makes limited quantity every year, and the quantity would depend on the selected material available at that time. I was really very very lucky because it just happened that Kokutaku sent one to iruiru by mistake (iruiru did not order it), and at the same time I inquired about this blade. She sent me the picture and I confirmed the order. |
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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
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Pejantan
Super Member Joined: 12/07/2006 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 114 |
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aeoliah: finally i found Xiom Distro in jogjakarta......mau gw tanyain gak?
what are you looking for? :D |
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sydoz
Beginner Joined: 11/19/2007 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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No, I was referring to the 9mm standard stock item.
As regard to the 8mm junifer, the wood is hard and strong, doesn't seem to be able to break easily. Also the junifer give out a very pleasant smell.
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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The only way a single plate hinoki blade will break is if it is dried out for too long or you smash it into the table or wall.Hinoki is prized for it's strength to weight ratio and resistance to the elements.The problem is manufacturers are trying to make a 10mm thick blade weigh the same as a 6 mm thick blade.
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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My guess is that it was better to ignore you than to send an email that announced to the world that her hinoki blades would never be around 80g and have straight grains. The later is certainly more common than the former. I've never seen a hinoki one ply under 92g or so and I'm quite sure that you won't get one for under $100. And there's an element of luck to get one for over 200.
I'm sure now someone will reply and tell me about the perfect hinoki they got for under $100, but it's gotta be rare. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
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aeoliah
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2005 Location: Indonesia Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Pejantan, I would appreciate it if you can give the address and or phone number. I am considering the aramid carbon, but I am not sure yet. Thanks.
Ryno, Do you mean to say that lighter blade is less strong ? Sydoz, That is strange. Anyhow I am asking for the lightest weight of Haruvatart from iruiru, and we will see what would be the reply. |
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Member of the Single Ply Hinoki Club
Viscaria Super ALC C-Pen Rasanter C48 |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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I don't really understand this obsession with the lightest weight blades. It seems to me like the best feel comes around 86-88g. I don't hear of pro's blades being extremely light.
Now if you're a kid or girl or have a wrist injury or soemthing, that's a differnt thing alltogether. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Blockade
Beginner Joined: 02/18/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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Iruiru does not accept (or doesn't like to take) requests for custom or special orders on blades. They told me that customers are sometimes not satisfied with what they get. Therefore, they only sell what they have in stock or what's currently available through the manufacturers.
It is best to e-mail them first to find out if they have or can get a specific blade before ordering.
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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For me the weight of the blade is non issue.to say 95 grams is too heavy and 85 is perfect is strange.A sheet of printer paper weighs almost 7 grams.So if you glued a sheet of printer paper on your blade you would notice?would it really slow you down? a sheet of paper?
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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everest81
Silver Member Joined: 09/28/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 637 |
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The very second time I used my new Cho tokusen, I had a real full swing during a rally, unfortunately the racket slipped out of my hand and landed 20 feet away, bam on the wooden floor. I was horrified, but relieved to see no damage on the blade at all. |
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Member of Single ply Hinoki club
Kokutaku Cho-Super Cho Tokusen + Tenergy Max Collecting dust: Nittaku Cho tokusen 9mm, kokutaku cho tokusen 9mm, darker 90 10mm, ryno custom poc blade 10.2mm |
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tiehwen
Premier Member Joined: 11/22/2006 Location: Bukan Bumiputra Status: Offline Points: 6434 |
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True!
But the Weight difference of, say, a 94 gram CPL 10 n a 74 gram Excellent A IS really noticeable! For me my last CPL 10 did feel heavy/bulky in my hand but when I really got on to play the game I think after a few swings/mins...I'd say all this weight issue would all be behind my head!
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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20 grams would be noticeable but did it effect your play? also what rubbers were you using on each blade?also CPL is a larger blade in comparison to excellent A
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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tiehwen
Premier Member Joined: 11/22/2006 Location: Bukan Bumiputra Status: Offline Points: 6434 |
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Nah...I put Stiga Innova UL on CPL 10 Sp. n IQ Max on Excellent to compensate each other n after a few hits/mins. It really didn't bother me or my plays. I basically smashed everyth'n or anyth'n that moved! CPLs do really have an unique shape compared to others. It is more elongated and the handle is diff. from other Bty Jpens, I figure.
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ryno
Silver Member Joined: 12/12/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 785 |
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One last thing about j pen cost. Hinoki/POC is a very expensive wood.This why high end j pens are more expensive but may not play better.You are paying for the scale of the wood.There are many scales of POC/hinoki.there is curly grain,straight grain,clear,clear vertical,new growth ,old growth and all these have a rating as well A,AA,AAA.The clear vertical old growth being the most expensive.then that is broken down to grains per inch and how straight the grains are over the board.This is what sets the price for your j pen blades.and on top of that you need to sort through all those by hand to choose the board right for you.go to
www.nwtimber.com click on the online shopping then go to musical billets and look at the port orford cedar musical billets they have in stock and then you will have an idea of what i am talking about |
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Red Label Kim Taek Soo (83g)
Almana Sound Synergy Tech (max) |
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