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shihjye View Drop Down
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    Posted: 03/20/2008 at 12:45am
 I've recently bought some hinoki 1 ply blades, (Cho Tokusen A from Nittaku and the Super Cho Tokusen from Kokutaku). It seems like the surface of the wood is already sealed, but I realized quite late (regrettably) that putting edge tape on the side caused some of the wood to peel off on the edges. How can I prevent this? is sealing the wood the answer? If so, how do you seal the wood.. safely, that wont effect the feel of the blade.


Also, on a side note, I've noticed that old Hinoki paddles all turn yellow and start getting kinda fuzzy around the grip area, should it be sealed there as well?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 12:53am
Hi!!!
I have also found that the Hinoki blades are soft inbetween the grains and some have some grooves that need to be filled and protected. I did this with the last blade I got and sold . . . Darker Speed 90. I put one thin coat over the blade surface, including the wings/shoulders and heavilty sealed around the edges . . . about 3 or 4 coats. The edge tape will not pull up the grains! I don't care what anyone says on this site or any other . . .
sealing the blade, regardless of the wood, in a MUST. The question is what to use and how much. At the very least, seal over the logo to protect it or you'll pull it up when you remove the rubber and glue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 12:55am
And . . . if the wood that peeled off is not too deep, drop sealant into the groove/hole one layer at a time until it's filled. Then seal around the whole edge a few times, but not the blade surface. One good coat should be enough there.

If you need more protection ideas I recommend asking Hookshot!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 12:56am
And, and, if you buy poor quality edge tape you won't have this problem as it doesn't stick! The purple one from Zeropong and the Galaxy/Yinhe and some of the other Christmas ribbon stuff will come off the first time you loop. weeooo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DeathAngel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 1:02am
What is sealer and where do you get it?

Is it ittf legal still?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 1:03am
Varathane! Water Based. Satin Finish.
Home Depot.
Other hardware stores.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 1:05am
I'd give you the thread, but this is easier for me.

*Prepare blade first. If you have to lightly sand, do it carefully with a fine gauge sponge sanding block-DRY. If you wet-sand a bare wood blade it might soften the wood and could deform it. Do not round off blade edges. Use rubbing alcohol to clean. Let dry (a few minutes). Now you're ready . . .

VARATHANE DIAMOND INTERIOR WOOD FINISH-SATIN (not gloss)-#2002-61.

1. Stir can well without shaking (causes air bubbles).
2. Dip the corner (twisted or folded up a little) of clean, dry cotton cloth* and quickly rub the sealer into the blade and with a technique that covers evenly. I go in circles starting at the center of the face of the blade and work my way to the outer edges, then wipe along the side edge (perimeter) of the blade where the edge tape will go, then quickly return to the face of the blade to wipe off any spill over from the edge sealing with some light vertical strokes from handle out over top of blade. You might want to stroke a nice even level line across the top of the handle where the bottom edge of the rubber will go; however, I think it looks better and strengthens the blade to seal the wings/shoulder. Some prefer to use a sponge or china bristle brush when applying, but that leaves a heavy coat and/or streaks of sealant. THAT IS NO GOOD. The trick is to rub the sealant INTO the blade, then gently wipe off the excess with the cloth.
3. Wait one hour, then polish with a clean dry cloth.
4. Repeat.
5. Repeat a third time ONLY if the blade is like bare porous wood or if you want a stiffer lacquered effect (I have over sealed and made a mess. My blade looked like an over protected night table . . . hard as a rock and too thick). Luckily, I managed to fix this by sanding with a fine gauge wet sanding sponge and it took hours to repair my disaster. But only do this if you mess up, which you shouldn't. However, I should mention many of the Chinese players are over-sealing to stiffen the blade. Some call over-sealing "lacquering." There are also other product and techniques specifically designed for lacquering, but I recommend using Varathane and adjusting the number of layers.
6. Let harden overnight.
7. Affix your rubbers! I use glue sheets and NEVER get splinters when removing!!!!!!

*Use a cotton cloth or an expensive paper towel like Bounty that will not leave lint of fall apart and get stuck to your wet sealer. I use an old pair of 100% cotton boxer shorts. :-).

I learned the technique in China.
I don't remember who turned me on to this Varathane, but it was on MYTT.
My hats off to him/her. I added the boxer shorts.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 1:06am
If the ITTF doesn't like it send them a bill the first time you destroy your unsealed blade.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 1:23am
I use the same method with Minwax Clear Quick Dry PolyU. Spray cans make it eaiser but a brush and a can will work.
Even with 3-5 coats, I have not had any trouble with glue or glue sheets sticking. Put some Scotch tape on a piece of glass or plastic and pull it off. That is what a glue sheet sticks like when you have 3-5 coats.
I have written many times about how it will affect a blade. If you have a Off or Off+, you will not be able to tell the difference with three coats. Might show up more on a Def blade. I sealed in pairs so I can compare the first one to the refference blade. I am not guessing. Tommy and I have probably sealed more than 50 or 60 blades between us. I have used his and he has used mine.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/20/2008 at 1:27am
I agree with HOOKSHOT on this except for one thing . . .
We sealed way more than 60 between us.

I have noticed the speed of soft DEF blades to be affected most. They probable go from DEF to DEF+ or ALL- to ALL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote shihjye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 1:54am
thanks alot guys!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 11:36am
Here's a related question - anyone repair dents in their blade?  I'm thinking a mix of wood glue and sawdust or something?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 12:14pm
Hi Chronos,
     First thing to do is put a wet piece of cloth over the dent, hold the tip of an iron on the cloth and see if you can steam the dent out. This method is used with gun stocks and works. It depends on how bad the wood fibers are damaged. If nothing else, it may make the dent shallower so less to fill.
     Sawdust mixed with glue also is a good filler. It is important to use as much sawdust as possible. I mix sawdust with glue untill the mix will not take anymore sawdust. Then it will sand similar to wood. Too much glue and it dries to a shiny spot.
     Use a good, hard, flat sanding block, not a soft block. A soft block will sand around the repair faster than the filler material.
     All these can be practiced on an old peice of wood before you go after the blade.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chronos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 8:24pm
fantastic tips, thanks!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 9:15pm
JyeChen, the only blade that I bought in the past which has been sealed is Darker Speed 90 (I bought two, J-pen squared and rounded), whilst others like Nittaku Cho Tokusen A and Kokutaku Cho Super Cho Tokusen are not sealed.
So on the Speed 90 I sealed only the sides (I use polyurethane), whilst on the others I sealed both the surface and the sides. I sealed lightly on the surface and more coats on the sides.
I coat the cork part as well as the handles too, and there is no change of colour. I tried one without sealing the handle but during play I cannot feel the difference with the sealed ones, except that the unsealed one gets smudges and becomes dirty.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 9:59pm
Hi Aeoliah,
     I am glad you are a fan of sealing. It gives so many advantages. When sealing the handles though, it depends alot on the type of wood. I have sealed some handles that were slippery feeling afterwards. Others, like yours worked just fine. I seal handles very lightly when I do seal them.
     It is really nice when you change rubbers and the little wings stay clean. When you seal the edges, you can really make it thick. Then the edge tapes stick well and pull off with no damage.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THEMANFZ1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/21/2008 at 10:36pm
The method that Hookshot is talking about will work to shallow out the ding or get rid of it altogether depending on the depth and damage done.  This is the same method we use to get rid of dings in a pool cue shaft.   When I'm done "working" the shaft (of the cueBig%20smile) its like glass.  Of course the cue shaft is much harder wood so be careful.  The way we do it is with a small hand held steam cleaner like this one  http://cgi.ebay.com/SteamFast-Steamer-Quick-Easy-Steam-Cleaner-SF-222_W0QQitemZ360033492054QQihZ023QQcategoryZ43514QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or you can simply boil some water on the stove with a kettle.  Make sure that the kettle is the type that has a port where the steam escapes and put the dent directly over the steam for 1-2 secs and dry it off.  This will cause the wood to swell and lift the dent.  Run your hand over the dent to make sure that you are not lifting a larger area than you want to.  Reapeat as needed.  You can then us a fine sanding sponge to smooth out the wood fibers that may have lifted due to the expansion and contraction of the wood due to the steam.  If the ding was too deep to completely remove with steam then do as Hookshot stated and mix some very fine sawdust.  I would get a 100-150grit sand paper and sand a scrap piece of wood until you get enough dust to mix with the glue.  (I prefer elmers yellow wood glue).  As Hookshot mentioned before, use as much sawdust as you can this way your repair will hopefully consist more of wood fibers than glue and it won't affect play.  Hope this helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 12:07am
Good tips THEMANFZ1Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote liXiao Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 12:11am
I asked Butterflyonline.com about wood sealing (IT WAS A FEATURED QUESTION) and Richard McAfee said he doesn't like blade sealing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 7plywood Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 12:37am
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

I asked Butterflyonline.com about wood sealing (IT WAS A FEATURED QUESTION) and Richard McAfee said he doesn't like blade sealing.
 
Why? I guess they say the felling changes, but this is not the case when you seal it lightly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 1:26am
How many blades has McAfee sealed? how many coats did he use? Did he do them in pairs so he could compare? Did he do slow blades or fast? It makes a difference. Did he do blind tests to see if others could pick them out?
Don't get me wrong, I think McAfee is a good coach and I read everything I find that he writes. I just have a different opinion on blade sealing bases on "LOTS" of sealing and comparision.
Most people when pinned  down, admit they have not personally sealed a blade. And if they did, and could feel a difference, most did not do a pair so they could compare. It then becomes subjective as to weather or not it really changed the blade. Seal one blade of a pair, put the same rubber on both and see if someone can pick out the sealed blade.
With 5 coats of poly on a fast carbon blade, it raises the pitch if you bounce a ball on the bare blade. With Max rubber on it, I could not tell a difference in speed. It already had a hard feel so the feel was the same.
Now it you did 5 coats on a Defensive blade, I can see where it would make a difference.Smile
I use OX pips on the backside and put that on with glue sheets. Glue sheets will rip alot of blades badly when removed. One good poly layer stops that. Two or three are better. Sealing the edges with poly helps thin top layers of wood from separating if you hit the table. A sealed blade stays clean and glue can be rubbed off very easy.
Maybe the 2600 level players can feel more change than I can. Richerd does deal with this level player. I don't have to worry about them myself. I feel sealing has more advantages than not.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 1:31am
Originally posted by liXiao liXiao wrote:

I asked Butterflyonline.com about wood sealing (IT WAS A FEATURED QUESTION) and Richard McAfee said he doesn't like blade sealing.


Yeahr, because when he ruins the blade Butterfly gives him a new one FREE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 1:33am
Another reason for sealing . . . it will help prevent blade warping. The Violin is notorious for this as of late.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aeoliah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 8:06am
I sure do hope that sealing will help to prevent warping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote timtabletennis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 11:23am
Tommyzai & Hookshot,

I have a question for the both of you since you two have seal over 50 to 60 blades. One of you used the Mini Wax quick dry clean and one have used the VARATHANE DIAMOND INTERIOR WOOD FINISH-SATIN (not gloss)-#2002-61.
Can you two tell me which one is the best of the two sealer ( is the Mini wax quick dry clean or varathane diamond interior wood finish-satin?). I'll appreciate you answer.  Thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 11:50am
They are both VERY tough finishes. The Woodworkers finishing guide has the mineral based poly finish listed as the "toughest" finish. The water based Poly is second.
     I find the difference between the Varathane and Poly finishes too small to tell by feel or when sanding. I have not tested them for things like water repellency. I will do some more looking but If you use either, you will get a very nice sealing job.Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pongcrazy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 11:55am
@ hookshot - When using a spray sealer do you mask everything off and then spray the blade surface or just get the spray for convenience and spray onto a cloth and rub in?  Thanks!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hookshot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/22/2008 at 12:49pm
Most of my blades would be considered "oversealed". I mask the handle but not the little wings of the blade. I use a can and rag for the first coat, sometimes two. After sanding, then I use the spray. Gives a finish with no streaks. I usually stop when there is just a "little grain" still showing but I have many that are like an expensive table top.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote THEMANFZ1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/23/2008 at 12:50am
Originally posted by Hookshot Hookshot wrote:

Good tips THEMANFZ1Smile


Thank you Hookshot

Originally posted by timtabletennis timtabletennis wrote:

Tommyzai & Hookshot,

I have a question for the both of you since you two have seal over 50 to 60 blades. One of you used the Mini Wax quick dry clean and one have used the VARATHANE DIAMOND INTERIOR WOOD FINISH-SATIN (not gloss)-#2002-61.
Can you two tell me which one is the best of the two sealer ( is the Mini wax quick dry clean or varathane diamond interior wood finish-satin?). I'll appreciate you answer.  Thanks.


If I may chime in on this one.  I have used the Varathane Diamond and it works very well.  I like it quite a bit I use it on a lot of my woodworking projects.  In my order of preference Minwax Polycrylic, Minwax polyurethane,Varathane Diamond, Varathane professional line. the Minwax polyurethane and Diamond are neck and neck actually.  Hope this helps.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/23/2008 at 1:24am
I began with Varathane and stuck with it. I'm not sure if it's the best. It works for me and I'll stay with it!
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