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Secret About Tensors !! revealed? |
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debraj 
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 Topic: Secret About Tensors !! revealed?Posted: 09/05/2008 at 5:40am |
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guys this is my theroy on secret of tensor rubber manufactured by ESN Elastomers GMBH.
TENSOR IS ABOUT THE TOPSHEET AND NOT ABOUT THE SPONGE. I will tell you why i think so... but before that let me tell yuo what i mean. to create stretching action in the topheet... we know, by using glue we expand the sponge. the other possible way is to USE A TOPSHEET MATERIAL THAT SHRINKS SIGNIFICANTLY WHEN IT SETTLES / ANNEALS. the relative shrinkage will create tension in the topsheet, mimicing the glue effect although in dry condition. Now curse me later.. but here rests my case: 1. Tensor sponges doesn't behave different in physical charecterisitics but topsheets do. - they oxidize over time, changes color sometimes - they are brittle and edge chips. i don't agree with the phenomena that edg chips under tension. do you see a hurricane or a bryce chip like a tensor when you consstantly induce tension with speed glue? i understand some of the newer tensors are overcoming this problem. but if tensor was to do with sponge... the topsheet problem would have never been overcome. 2. you can get any bloody sponge hardness in tensor, but never that much play with intrinsic topsheet quality like tackiness. if sponge was the magic, they would just fix a tacky rubber on sponge. unfortunately the magic being the topsheets, they don't have so much play with formulation. 3. may sound funny.. but a company named elastomer would have better luck wth elastomers (rubbers) than sponge 4. If it was sponge, they would eventually sell the sponges seperately to other companies.. like they sell the whole combination to different companies under different brand names ... commercially its called private labelling. THink of a company like DHS ... what volume business they could potentially give to ESN putting such a sponge below h2 or h3. 5. i think the reason they call bios and stuff and shows trees etc.. could be that they are using some natural resins in making the topsheet. my little knowledge tells me resins would be unlikely in sponge formulation. [but needs to be verified] 6. If they were to do otherwise, they were to actually create a sponge which expands while colling down, which though not impossible, a far more unlikely ... would sure have problem with uniformity becauese there has to be a phase transformation (go check material sc books  . Chance of non-uniformity will be eminent so the process would be that the topsheet rubber mix is molded and pasted on the sponge in green stage and then underwent some heat treatment or cooling cycle to attain desired shrinkage and hence tension. Okay .. Shoot!! Agree? Disagree? [ that could be the answer to why there migt never be a tacky tensor |
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Pjotr
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Joined: 03/04/2008 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 131 |
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 6:02am |
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Hi,
Interesting analysis...
I agree that the 'secret' could be the topsheet...but not that the topsheet is under tension. I think that then it would dome anyway while shrinking (negative dome like Joola Mambo GP).
It is true that the topsheet of a Tensor is much more fragile and wears off in a couple of weeks. So definitly something did happen to them.
On the other hand, what would suggest that there is also some effect from the sponge is that for different brands the same sponges are used with different topsheets (depending on the brand)...but maybe that has a commercial and/or practical reason.
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Borko ST
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Stavros
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 6:10am |
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Debrah,
interesting analysis. I thing that the Japanese can easily create an ESN-like rubber but they don't proceed because of the unacceptable durability. It is against the Japanese culture. |
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InfinityVPS - D80 - D05
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swissping
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 6:30am |
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@debraj: I did many tests with tensor sponges from esn, but with other topsheets together. Im pretty shure, that the secret of the tensors is in the sponge and not in the topsheet. I analyse as well the tensor topsheets from esn and there is not a huge difference to all the others. For example, if i glue a dawei inspirit topsheet on a tensor sponge, it feels like a original tensor rubber. So im my opinion, it is the sponge, that make the speed glue feeling.
Greetz Roger |
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VH:Samba Joola
BH:Armstrong Rosin Blade: TRinnova Sonar Blade --------------------- www.trinnova-blades.com / Handmade Blades |
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Schlager
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 7:01am |
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Well, it's been a known fact for some time that a tensioned topsheet is the "secret" of tensors. That's why the topsheet is so fragile..
They are often combined with soft sponges to give max flexibility and as good glue feel as possible..
You can't make a tensor by stretching a H3 topsheet on a H3 sponge, so it's not all about the topsheet though, you need a soft and flexible sponge to go with it..
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debraj
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 12:42pm |
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schlager... i would want to isagree on that. you do get pretty hard sponges on tensors.. andro 480 roxon 500, Xiom Zeta or Xiom omega asian version, etc etc...beyond that hardness they wont be plyable.[and i think hard sponges will put more resistance to topsheet shrinking and hence create more tension on topsheet.]
and i agree with the fact that the feel of ball digging in, will be more with soft sponge tensors. but not that sponge below a tensor topsheet has to be soft.
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debraj
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 12:52pm |
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pjtor
good question.
i think a possible explanation of why its not bent could be if they are pre-bending the sponge before attaching he rubber. in such case the sponge will be already tensioned in its flat form (balancing out the tensional pull of the topsheet).
or i could be wrong.
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Pjotr
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 12:53pm |
Equally interesting....but I still wonder why the Tensor topsheets are so fragile?
Roger, did you try a Samba topsheet on a Tensor sponge?
How do you remove the topsheet from the sponge?
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Borko ST
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Pjotr
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 12:55pm |
Hmm, would there be any tension left then?
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Borko ST
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debraj
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 12:58pm |
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swissping
i have actually seen different claim on this point. but i am open to be proved wrong. In fact when quattro was launched there were claims of this being cut from the same sponge as tensor bios.
but anyway which tensor sponge did you use below inspirit... was it just a good sponge effect or real tensor effect?
\
could you post a photo of the sponge-rubber combo? did you mention this experiment in any earlier post?
this could spare me repeating the same experiment i was thinking i will try some day
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debraj
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 1:04pm |
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pjtor :)
you are a thinker..
okay not a representative example but just to explain my point consider 2 rubbery material sheets that are originally in the shape of U... and having equal elastic modulus / surface strength.
now paste the U s like this )(
they will stretch each other to make a straight line.. right?
does that mean they are not stressed? :)
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Pjotr
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 1:07pm |
Yep, you are soo right
 This also means that when you seperate them, they would dome again....
Swissping...did they dome?
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Borko ST
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debraj
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 1:14pm |
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oh no.. don't confuse this example with the actual phenomena ...
i was just explaining the point on when a straight combo can still have tension. it could be significantly more complex.
but yes swissping.... we are looking forward to your response.
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swissping
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 8:50pm |
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Hi there!
Ok, here are a few answers: @pjotr: Its very easy to detach a topsheet from sponge. I always use Acetone with a brush to detach the topsheet from the sponge. I did not test the Samba topsheet with a tensor sponge, but maybe I should do it, because I played many years with that rubber before the speed glue ban. @debray: I combined a inspirit quattro topsheet with a xiom omega I (european version) sponge and as well a palio hk 1997 with a andro roxxon 450 sponge. And both combos feels like a original tensor rubbers, but with the dawei and palio topsheet I can produce much more spin, than with original tensor topsheets. That was the main reason to make this tests. So for me it is clear, its not the topsheet, it is the sponge from esn that makes the speed glue feeling. I think the secret of the sponge is, that esn found a way to include a positive pressure in the sponge (maybe with a kind of gas) In my last competition decade I played around 5 month (3-4 times a week) with the inspirit quattro-xiom omega sponge combo, before I had to change the topsheet. Before that, I played with Xiom omega I in original condition and had to change the rubber after 2 month. SO, WHAT DO YOU THINK WHY THE TOPSHEETS OF THE TENSORS HAVE SUCH A BAD DURABILITY??? For me, its pretty clear, that this is intended to sale more rubbers, because what kind of (good) alternatives are on the market now for all the ex-speed gluers? In my opinion, the situation on the market is very bad for the consumers! ESN has a monpoly position on the market and can determine the prices. I pray that a chinese manufactuerer will produce very soon cheaper and comparable rubbers as esn. Because all the "biotech" "tension" "exonor" rubbers are not competitive, although all of them have better topsheets. Greetings, Roger |
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BH:Armstrong Rosin Blade: TRinnova Sonar Blade --------------------- www.trinnova-blades.com / Handmade Blades |
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dauntless
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Posted: 09/05/2008 at 9:47pm |
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swissping: nice info -- that is so cool that you did that!
While I haven't done any experiments I have played with a bunch of tensors and japanese and chinese regular rubbers. I think it is a combination not one or the other.
But the basis for having a speed glue feeling would be that the SPONGE is soft/elastic enough to allow dwell. Speed glue should have been called spin glue, because what it did (as far as I understand it) was allow the ball to be manipulated rather than just bounce off super fast. It was alpplied to the SPONGE not the topsheet/ I think that the key to the inbuilt rubbers i.e. namebrands like Tensor is that they have to have a topsheet that will work together with the sponge to create the perfect "feeling" by allowing the ball to have some dwell time--> they are a long way from that I think... and I agree that the crumbles may be a built-in obselecense feature
Roxon is great in the short game, ok just about everywhere else, but not so awesome in blocking. Energy was awesome at blocking, hitting, lopping OK -- but short game sucked according to me. Lots of Tensors had the tendency to pop up for touch shots, over the table. They are inconsistent IMHO and don't have the linear response and stability that regular normal 2.1 sriver EL has, for example.
That will change as they find the "secret" to making the perfect in-built effects. Tenergy is not a tensor, but is has a "spring sponge" not a spring topsheet. So it not that I believe all the hype, I just think it makes more sense that it is the sponge more so, but a combination effect.
Swissping may disagree since he has opened up a whole new technology:
Chinese Tensors, only $75 (Chinese sheet, Euro Tensor sponge, glue, time and materials)
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swissping wrote: