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What is going on with 5-ply hinoki blades?

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dimitris View Drop Down
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    Posted: 09/09/2008 at 8:04pm
I would like to hear the opinion of people that have used 5-ply hinoki blades. It seems to me that there is a love-hate relationship with this kind of blades, as well as an ever-changing fashion trend.

Butterfly has made Jonyer for a long time, which seems to sell well. But it has discontinued the ("popular" as it mentions) power drive model, replacing it with the H.S. Cryzer, which in turn also discontinued, although considered a very good blade by many. A few other h.s. models came about, like h.s. speedy and h.s. swift, which did not seem to catch up with the players. Now it has introduced a couple of more 5-ply hinoki blades, like the All Hinoki 5 and Kiso Hinoki V.

Few other brands offer 5-ply hinoki blades, one I believe being Avallo AVX J-Tech. Although hinoki is offered very often as an outer ply, it does not seem to be the wood of choice for the whole blade by many, including a (claimed) blade designer, as mentioned here:

http://forum.oneofakindtrading.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=1008&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=16

but without explanation why Xiom does not make a 5-ply hinoki blade.

But another designer, blade maker and high level player, Borko, I believe has claimed to be using a 5-ply hinoki blade for his game.

5-ply blades have been discussed here too, but I would like to hear what people love and what other people hate about 5-ply hinoki blades, that lead even big companies like Butterfly revise their designs so often...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 8:16pm

Jonyer-H was my first blade in table tennis in the early eighties.  I have it now also.  It's a very stable blade, great feed back and has great touch.  It does have a little vibration that is minimized by my Sriver FX rubbers.  It is super light, medium soft blade with an awesome handle.  I will give you my impressions on the All Hinoki 5 when I get it from Iruiru this week. 

Some feel the vibration is too much and don't like it.  It seems to work well with medium to softer rubbers.  I've tried it with harder chinese rubbers went back to my Sriver EL and FX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 8:17pm
Jonyer Hinoki is still available 5 ply hinoki here. AN & FL.

As a handmade manufacturer I can say 2 points against hinoki:
1. expensive
2. very hard to treat with. (it is not stable under 1mm veneers, very light, change its form easily.

I started to play with 2 Jonyer Hinoki rackets. All of them broke in the neck in 6-7 months.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 8:24pm
i used my first jonyer racked for almost 5 years.  Had great luck with it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PLLsystem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 8:28pm
I used the longer AN version and maybe I generated more effect onto the neck
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote linn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 10:19pm
Here is a new 5-ply hinoki blade from Xiom, the Jazz:
 
 
If you buy one, please review it for us.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimitris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 10:20pm
PLLsystem, thank you for the great information from the maker's perspective. This could explain a lot.

Hafawaz, you mentioned that hinoki 5-ply blades have some vibration and people may not like that. For the same thickness you think they have more vibration that the average wooden 5-ply blade? Because my impression with the h.s.cryzer was that it did not have significant vibration, just enough to give some feedback. I guess though that the cryzer is thicker than the jonyer, as well as heavier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote phantagarow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 10:24pm
It doesn't say that it is all Hinoki. Am I missing something?


Originally posted by linn linn wrote:

Here is a new 5-ply hinoki blade from Xiom, the Jazz:
 
 
If you buy one, please review it for us.
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/09/2008 at 10:59pm
@phantagarow - you are correct, i noticed that the description says the middle layer is a hard african wood. 
 
@dimitris - i don't think it has more vibration than other blades that are of similar thickness.  i think it's the thickness that gives it that unique feeling (it's only 5.1 and, according to the chart, butterfly makes 3 blades that are thinner, the cutlass, grubba pro and grubba carbon).  i don't think it's the hinoki that makes it vibrate , i think it's the thickness.  by the way, i don't think it vibrates that much, it's got great feel.  mine is 72g from iruiru.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rokphish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 3:05am
Linn, we're talking about ALL hinoki 5 ply blade, not 5 ply blade with Hinoki top ply.

I previously tried Sriver EL on Jonyer but didn't like it. Tried Osaka didn't like it either. I settled with H2 & Torrent on it. I will be playing and comparing my hinoki blades in October.. 1 ply, 5 ply, 9 ply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 7:39am
did you speed glue the srivers?  what thickness did you use?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimitris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 9:57am
And which blade is Osaka? I have not heard of it before...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rokphish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 1:12pm
No speedglue, just a layer of rubber cement. Max thickness on the EL.
Osaka is a rubber by Prasidha.

If I remember correctly I didn't like Sriver EL on the Jonyer because it feels too soft. I like Sriver EL on my Korbel.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote riker71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 1:29pm
Im using Jonyer H as well (FL, 74g), I can only echo what hafawaz has already said. I tried other Hinoki blades (Septear, Kiso Hinoki V) but found these lacking in the balance of touch/speed/control of the Jonyer.

I wouldn't say it vibrates but it does provide a nice feedback so you can feel the ball a bit.  Ive had mine 2 years and still in great condition. I also just ordered 2 more in case Butterfly stop making them - I initially ordered from ttex.se but they then emailed to say out of stock and Butterfly would be bringing replacement model out next January.

I currently use EL 1.9 and Cermet 1.9 on mine and am going to try some solcion on the BH and various other rubbers/thicknesses on one of the spares and keep the last spare as a replacement for future. I posted a review of this blade at
http://www.tabletennisdb.com/table-tennis-blade.php?id=butterfly-jonyer-hinoki




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rokphish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 1:38pm
Yeah, btw... Don't take my comments as negative on the Jonyer. I like mine a lot. Actually still thinking (somewhere at the back of my mind) to get another one with heavier weight (as heavy as possible, which may be about 80g if they even made it that heavy). 86-89g would be perfect but I don't think it will go that heavy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/10/2008 at 4:38pm
i've also been wanting to try the solcion, but the price is high and I can't find many worthwhile reviews on it. 
 
@riker71 - thanks for the heads up on the replacement comment - are they discontinuing it? by the way how does the cermet play compared to a sriver?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote riker71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2008 at 4:46am
Hafawaz - I would say Cermet is about 15-20% faster/spinnier than Sriver EL, its also a bit harder than EL even though the sponge rating is 34 and EL is rated 35 by Butterfly. I find that loops kick off the table more with Cermet with more speed and serves are more loaded with spin. But it plays a good short game as well -  I find it the best rubber for my FH and probably be  sticking with it for a long time (well, unless I see a Chinese Version of Cermet for $10!)

Actually The only rubbers I would try now are Solcion for BH and maybe Catapult Hard on FH as its cheaper  but closely rated to Cermet. The Solcion is expensive but Ive read very good reviews of it.

As for Jonyer H being discontinued, I would be a bit surprised if this was so as it seems to be one of the more popular blades Butterfly have made. But thats what the guy at ttex.se emailed me. I notice that some places have reduced the prices on it eg Tees Sport although still expensive compared to where I got mine from http://shop.ilpp.idv.tw/

I also notice that Iruiru dont stock the Jonyer H  so maybe its true that it is no longer being made...

Rokphish - The heaviest Jonyer  available from the above shop was 76 grams which Ive ordered (FL)  I think Ive heard of players with 78g on here and maybe 82 gram although that might have been the AN version.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote haggisv Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2008 at 5:09am
The Avallo AVX J-Tech is not 5 layer hinoki either, certainly the centre layer is not hinoki. I think the main reason it's not more common is cost.... the genuine Kiso Hinoki is expensive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimitris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2008 at 10:57am
haggisv, thanks for the great information about the avallo avx j-tech. After searching for it, the official avallo website mentions actually that the surface is hinoki, but other websites (like fareastsports) promote it as 5-ply hinoki blade.

I am wondering though, if hinoki is so expensive, how come the 5-ply hinoki blades are so cheap, usually in the range of $40-$60, especially when comparing them to the 1-ply hinoki blade prices? Is it that inferior grade hinoki is placed in the inner plies? Or hinoki substitutes, like Port Orford Cedar, spruce, etc. are used for these plies?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rokphish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2008 at 1:26pm
Originally posted by riker71 riker71 wrote:

Rokphish - The heaviest Jonyer  available from the above shop was 76 grams which Ive ordered (FL)  I think Ive heard of players with 78g on here and maybe 82 gram although that might have been the AN version.


I might be lucky then because all that are left are AN... Wink
But my 70.4g Jonyer is also an AN.... Ouch


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote riker71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2008 at 1:40pm
I have just been informed by a reliable source that the Jonyer H is definitely discontinued. The new Model is called Jonyer Hinoki Off Special in AN and FL but will be very similar to the old one but have the same head size in both grips. Im trying to find out if the head size will be compact or regular. I reckon it will be compact. Due out December/January -   Watch this space!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/11/2008 at 2:02pm
thanks for the heads up - i like the compact head more.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote riker71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 4:52am
Hafawaz -  Ive just tried Solcion on the Jonyer and its very good. My review is at

http://www.tabletennisdb.com/table-tennis-rubber.php?id=butterfly-solcion&msg=rated


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 7:26am
thanks for the review - i just purchased a pair of solcions and can't wait until they arrive. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dalamchops Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 9:29am
Solcion is a really good rubber, i had used about 8 sheets of them the past year. I out grew it though.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonyer1980 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 9:46am
Originally posted by riker71 riker71 wrote:

Hafawaz - I would say Cermet is about 15-20% faster/spinnier than Sriver EL, its also a bit harder than EL even though the sponge rating is 34 and EL is rated 35 by Butterfly. I find that loops kick off the table more with Cermet with more speed and serves are more loaded with spin. But it plays a good short game as well -  I find it the best rubber for my FH and probably be  sticking with it for a long time (well, unless I see a Chinese Version of Cermet for $10!)

Actually The only rubbers I would try now are Solcion for BH and maybe Catapult Hard on FH as its cheaper  but closely rated to Cermet. The Solcion is expensive but Ive read very good reviews of it.

As for Jonyer H being discontinued, I would be a bit surprised if this was so as it seems to be one of the more popular blades Butterfly have made. But thats what the guy at ttex.se emailed me. I notice that some places have reduced the prices on it eg Tees Sport although still expensive compared to where I got mine from http://shop.ilpp.idv.tw/

I also notice that Iruiru dont stock the Jonyer H  so maybe its true that it is no longer being made...

Rokphish - The heaviest Jonyer  available from the above shop was 76 grams which Ive ordered (FL)  I think Ive heard of players with 78g on here and maybe 82 gram although that might have been the AN version.


 
I�m the owner of a Jonyer H FL 80 grms that I purchased 8 years ago. It�s have been my favourite blade during all my life, and also had other 3 Jonyer, but sold or traded them, none of them were like my first one, I never knew the reason, because I wasn�t interested at all on it�s weight.
 
This summer I borrowed a digital kitchen scale and weighted it and some others: 80 grm. Now I really know why this Jonyer was superior that the others I sold.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tonovector Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 9:56am
Solcion, Cermet, and Sriver EL are some of the best Butterfly products, especially for the BH.  They team up very well with hinoki blades, too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sebas-aguirre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 11:13am
soooooo......... Ermm
nobody tried "hinoki shake speedy"?
i've heard good comments and many people use it.
it's from butterfly.
it's a little heavier and faster than jonyer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hafawaz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 12:05pm
i think they're made in china ; my problem is that i notice a lower quality in butterfly products that are made in china vs. those made in japan.  that's why i purchased a all hinoki 5
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimitris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/18/2008 at 12:05pm
There is one short review here:

http://forum.oneofakindtrading.com.au/viewtopic.php?t=1008

What kind of good words have you heard though?
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