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Using what the pros don't?

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icontek View Drop Down
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    Posted: 04/10/2009 at 10:37pm
With the glue ban, should the average joe be using the same rubber/sponge/blade as the average pro?

Last year an upcoming US1500 player would do fine with unglued sriver on a Korbel while a professional could use the same sheet of rubber - all speedglued to heck on the same blade and expect decent results.

Considering that many of us lack the thousands of training hours per year that many professional Table Tennis players have under their belts; doesn't it make more sense to use our knowledge of what blade and rubber combo the world's top players are using... and use it to make an informed decision on what *NOT* to use?

If it's good enough for them; could it be "too good" for us?

p.s. it terrifies me that Bryan Pace used the Korbel, because I dread that it is simply too much blade for me to use on my journey through average :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote traineebeing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 4:01am
We must be honest with ourselves. If we are uneasy when playing, if our swings are not relaxed, if we are in doubt everytime we hit the ball then we should say adios to our fast blade and/or rubbers.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 4:29am
That's pretty good advice, if there's any doubt in your head at all that you will make the shot then you have too much blade/rubber for your game and you will play better with a slower setup

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 4:29am
exactly why my 1ply hinoki, schlager carbon and primorac carbon r sitting on my shelves
i lost my racquet

Schlager u beast

http://www.youtube.com/MDSguy

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 4:30am
Originally posted by theman theman wrote:

exactly why my 1ply hinoki, schlager carbon and primorac carbon r sitting on my shelves


And why a few OFF+ carbons are sitting on mine :)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Talent Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 4:58am
yea i went now from my boll tricarbon(off+),to korbel magichand(off),to persson powerplay(off-) and my game improved,lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Totoro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 5:29am
My friend who is only 12 got a Primorac Carbon OFF+ with Tenergy 05 on both sides [ how the heck did he afford that?!?! ] and he couldn't do much except his smashes. Then he switches to ...can't remember the Butterfly blade but it was Off- and then put Sriver ELs on both sides and he's looping like a beast now!
I'm 15

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CPen Looper with LP twiddling, blocking hitting and LP RPB
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ppgear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 10:34am
What not to use? Tenergy 05 would be a sure bet for anyone under 2000 USATT. There are too many people sitting at 1000-1500 USATT using Tenergy. They should never have started speed gluing and never need a speed-glue substitute like the Tenergy.

Arthur Lui
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 11:53am
I played some promising young kids that had grown up speed gluing they were all saying man I cant play well without glue I got myself some tenergy but I dunno.... I just said, I never used glue, have a dose of this unglued H2 loop :D unreturnable ;). Addicted to glue that's the whole problem

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LOOPMEISTER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 12:26pm
This debate will go on until the end of time, but I think you should use what you want, what you like, what you feel comfortable with.

It doesn't take a 2000 rating to know you're comfortable with a certain setup even if it has the reputation of being fast. I use Tenergy on my FH and it feels good. My mistakes come from bad footwork or lack of concentration, because when I'm in the right position I can hit very good shots with Tenergy. On those shots when I'm out of position, if I had a slower rubber, sure I might get a few more to land on the table, but that's not helping my footwork.

I'm aware of what is too fast for me because I'm using a very slow rubber on my bh.

So its simple. If it feels too fast, don't use it. But its up to you.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jonan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 2:24pm
It seems to me there would be the counter argument that lower skilled players need something like superior equipment to increase their learning curve and give them more of an edge and supplement their swings more.

But I know that there is certainly too much of a good thing, my friends all look for the fastest stuff out there and drool over the new super fast blades with control thrown to the wind and want to attack more and get faster stuff. I'm teaching them the error of their ways though, or trying.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grubbafan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 2:55pm
It all depends on each individual's playing style. I have used carbon blade, and found that it is too fast for me. I have moved on to a combination blade (Dr Neubauer Combination Effect), and the blade has stuck with me for several months now.



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BH : Butterfly Sriver
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ppgear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 4:43pm
The problem is there's not really such a thing as "superior" equipment. Every piece of equipment has its own characteristics of speed, spin, control, tackiness, dwell time, etc.

The goal is to find what fits your style to help you play your best, and more often than not people are picking speed at the cost of control. Fast equipment prevents you from developing your own power, and people are starting out with something really fast like Tenergy way too early, before they've even developed their own power from their stroke.

I see players in lower divisions that in the 1000-1500 USATT level using Tenergy and not able to even use full strokes because even their abbreviated strokes produce enough speed. This is damaging because they feel they have enough speed and won't work to develop their stroke as much. You need to learn to develop power from your stroke before slapping on a Tenergy.

In an overall game control is so important especially with finesse strokes like pushes and flips; to develop these strokes so you can execute them with confidence requires using controllable equipment at the start.



Arthur Lui
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Leshxa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by ppgear ppgear wrote:

The problem is there's not really such a thing as "superior" equipment. Every piece of equipment has its own characteristics of speed, spin, control, tackiness, dwell time, etc.

The goal is to find what fits your style to help you play your best, and more often than not people are picking speed at the cost of control. Fast equipment prevents you from developing your own power, and people are starting out with something really fast like Tenergy way too early, before they've even developed their own power from their stroke.

I see players in lower divisions that in the 1000-1500 USATT level using Tenergy and not able to even use full strokes because even their abbreviated strokes produce enough speed. This is damaging because they feel they have enough speed and won't work to develop their stroke as much. You need to learn to develop power from your stroke before slapping on a Tenergy.

In an overall game control is so important especially with finesse strokes like pushes and flips; to develop these strokes so you can execute them with confidence requires using controllable equipment at the start.





This is a perfect response. I myself started out with a monster combo Tibhar Samsonov Carbon +Topedo Soft on both sides 2.0. I loved the blade since it was lighting fast and i could counter many slow spin shots. The problem is - no control and lack of the game. I did not develop any other part of the game.....

I got a coach and then began downgrading my equipment slowly finally ending up with a basic Yasaka Mark V blade and rubber combo. Now that I've reached 1600 level, this is where I begin noticing the lack of power on certain strokes and beginning to look for alternatives that give pace.

I am still experimenting, although the control is never compromised. Adjustments to different sheets are easy once you have a good partner ( in my case the coach ) to hit with to feel all the shots - shots against underspin, topspin, no spin, etc. But I guess this is a part of the "graduation to the next level".

I would however, like to find out what the pros would recommend to use. By pros i mean the players themselves and not their sponsors. Their true and honest opinions about equipment they've used and why they chose to pick one type versus another type of blade, rubber, etc. I think this sport is certianly missing this honesty and is filled with great sounding gimmicks of advertisements.

The ultimate however, is your own comfort. I've had my blade tried by many different people. Some like it, some dont. Its a matter of preference. The only common concepts are around the differences in rubber hardness, stiffness of the blade, and how a specific combination complements the player's style. If it does not suit the style, look for another combo.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 11:32pm
Wow. I am really pleasantly surprised to hear all the support and positivity.

Thanks for your input folks!


p.s.
Originally posted by ppgear ppgear wrote:

I see players in lower divisions that in the 1000-1500 USATT level using Tenergy and not able to even use full strokes because even their abbreviated strokes produce enough speed. This is damaging because they feel they have enough speed and won't work to develop their stroke as much. You need to learn to develop power from your stroke before slapping on a Tenergy.


I know a guy who used to be roughly US1700. He got there on speedglued bryce FX, a primorac carbon and strokes that are entirely wrist, elbow and foot to foot waist transfer (no torso rotation, no shoulders). Playing for 5 years like that crippled his technique; he cannot make "textbook strokes".

With his small stroke, he relies on the blade (no glue now) to produce the speed, and his wrist to produce the spin.

He has developed good touch with this gear, but because he is using smaller muscle groups his consistency is not very good (he is down to sub US1500). With the speed glue ban, he can no longer produce the speed and spin he was once capable of (he has less power AND less control).

I was shocked the first time I beat him. With an ALL+ blade and ALL+ rubber, I was able to hit faster and more powerful drives, and stayed consistent enough to win.

The best thing that playing with ALL+ gear has done is allowed me to develop a full swing.

Now if I can just get "return to ready position" and "footwork" down I will be golden :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ppgear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/11/2009 at 11:55pm
Exactly.
That's why asking "what do the pros use?" is an irrelevant question until you become a pro yourself. They really need fast equipment to finish points. Their tens of thousands of hours of coached practice has given them the control and finesse they need. At a high level you need some raw power to end the point, especially after the glue ban.

Stop asking what the pros use, and start asking what's suitable for you at this time given your skills and deficiencies. For most people it will be control that you need, not power.

Probably at least 70% of people on this forum should be using ALL to OFF- equipment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote saif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2009 at 6:22am
Originally posted by ppgear ppgear wrote:

Exactly.
That's why asking "what do the pros use?" is an irrelevant question until you become a pro yourself. They really need fast equipment to finish points. Their tens of thousands of hours of coached practice has given them the control and finesse they need. At a high level you need some raw power to end the point, especially after the glue ban.

Stop asking what the pros use, and start asking what's suitable for you at this time given your skills and deficiencies. For most people it will be control that you need, not power.

Probably at least 70% of people on this forum should be using ALL to OFF- equipment.


Can't agree more. I myself decided to settle on a OFF- rated setup. With faster setup my loopkills are deadly but I'm loosing much more because I'm lacking those touches and slow game control that build the overall game.
TBS FH & BH: T05fx
Tibhar Samsonov Alpha FH: Grip-S Europe BH: Rakza7 soft
Victas Koji Matsushita FH: Tenergy 80 BH: Feint long III
https://www.facebook.com/groups/5439549367/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dauntless Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2009 at 7:04am
I tried everything from $$ OFF+ composites to El Cheapo ALL+ and found a perfect fit for my game with a slow Primorac OFF- (an old one -15 years - from Japan, not the Chinese one -- I've had both) and Nittaku Refoma. With this setup I do not think about my equipment during sets... I never shake my head and look at my setup after I've lost a point. I don't wipe my rubber and think there is something wrong. I am at one with this "OFF-"setup...which is at best an ALL+ in reality. As long as it doesn't break, I have found Holy Grail.

I agree 100% with topic. Maybe I had more money than sense! Now its time to sell the extra stuff and maybe have Borko make a replica of this antique!
1. BTY Primorac, Nittaku H3N, T64 2. BTY Primorac, H3N, Mendo MP Feedback
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2009 at 8:33am
I just wanted to highlight what I found to be some of the best comments I've seen on this forum, period. There's a little bit of counterpoint here but I think if we'll take wisdom from each of these posts, we will do well.
 
Originally posted by traineebeing traineebeing wrote:

We must be honest with ourselves. If we are uneasy when playing, if our swings are not relaxed, if we are in doubt everytime we hit the ball then we should say adios to our fast blade and/or rubbers.   
 
Originally posted by LOOPMEISTER LOOPMEISTER wrote:

It doesn't take a 2000 rating to know you're comfortable with a certain setup even if it has the reputation of being fast. I use Tenergy on my FH and it feels good. My mistakes come from bad footwork or lack of concentration, because when I'm in the right position I can hit very good shots with Tenergy. On those shots when I'm out of position, if I had a slower rubber, sure I might get a few more to land on the table, but that's not helping my footwork.
 
Originally posted by ppgear ppgear wrote:

I see players in lower divisions that in the 1000-1500 USATT level using Tenergy and not able to even use full strokes because even their abbreviated strokes produce enough speed. This is damaging because they feel they have enough speed and won't work to develop their stroke as much. You need to learn to develop power from your stroke before slapping on a Tenergy.

In an overall game control is so important especially with finesse strokes like pushes and flips; to develop these strokes so you can execute them with confidence requires using controllable equipment at the start.
 
Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2009 at 10:07am

And you know, not that 53 dollars is a fortune, but it's a shame that there's a percentage of players spending 53 dollars for a single rubber they're not ready for, when they could have a great playing setup for 35-50 dollars (utilizing Dawei/Galaxy/729/LKT/Gambler* products) which would be much better for their game.

Oh well. Here's to hype, advertising, and keeping up with the Jones's! Confused
 
*edited to include Gambler
Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cactus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2009 at 6:32am
This is a great thread and mirrors my own recent experience.  As a 1200-1300 player I was looking for my first real paddle.  I bought a neutral soft feel OFF- paddle with a high tension rubber (Avalox BT550 with 2.0mm Sterco rubber).  This setup was too fast for me with not enough control, mainly due to the rubber.  I then down shifted to a ALL+ basic Butterfly Timo Boll with 2.1mm Sriver on the FH and 1.9mm on the BH.  I have appreciated returning to consistent confidant strokes. Well, for the most part. Working on that. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote icontek Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/14/2009 at 11:15am
Cactus - how much do you want for that BT550 with Sterco 2.0mm? PM me?
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