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ELIZE tester.. So far, so dark

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Hans Regenkurt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: ELIZE tester.. So far, so dark
    Posted: 05/28/2009 at 5:24am
I am bothered by the insconsistencies on the part of the ITTF that were brilliantly described in the previous posts.

Adham, could you please provide statistical data as to how many players rackets failed the enez and the elize test at the Worlds? After reading the blog entry about the Worlds, I feel that you are trying to paint a picture of the situation now that is far fetched from reality. Can you please give some numbers that justify that very few players resorted to boosters or tuners?

I know, and a lot of coaches know that a large number of juniors are still using boosters, why would it be different with the adults?

What really bothers me is that I perceive that the ITTF is trying to avoid the real clash with manufacturers and member organisations and trying to project an image that with speed glue banned, it is going to be plain-sailing from now. However, I too agree that the only solution would be to get top-sheets approved together with the sponge. Otherwise the rule abiding players will be left with a feeling that they are being deceived.
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nicefrog View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote nicefrog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 6:19am
I think that's a good point, making the sponge part of the approval process, that would take away all the wishy washy badly written rules we have right now. Let the ITTF take a sponge pull it apart see what it's make up, make sure there's no nasty stuff in there and then test the sponge randomly at tornaments to make sure it's chemical makeup is as it should be. I'd be all for that. It would also mean every man and his dog can truely play with a pro sponge
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pingpongrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 9:27am
Originally posted by wturber

Originally posted by pingpongrob


You should have been very angry with them, as they were trying to beat you by cheating.



Baloney.  I know a player quite well who's racket failed ENEZ at the 2008 Nationals.  I know that he was trying to be compliant because I advised him on what was reported online as being necessary to yield a negative test result from ENEZ.  He did those things, but somehow his racket barely failed.  He quite clearly was not trying to win by cheating.  He was trying to be compliant, but had no way of know if he was compliant until his racket was actually tested.


Baloney - If he was trying to be complaint, he would have used VOC free glue, your argument does not hold water. There is no barely failed. your racket either passes or fails. The Enez machine tested over a set time and the result (green or Red) was displayed after the set time. Don't try and make excuse for other.

Its Simple - Follow the rules and its even for everyone. Break the rules and you gain an advantage, its called cheating, whether its deliberate or not.

Originally posted by Tinykin_2

PPG, Haggis said that they failed the pre-match test. He didn't say whether it was the enez or measurement test.
I think the ITTF don't punish players too severely because there's still too much doubt and confusion. Remember that these are professionals. They earn their money from the sport. If the ITTF don't get it 100% correct in their test and punishment, they might not exist after the first lawsuit.


HaggisV did not say, it was William (Australia's No.1 player). In his opening statement, he states, and I quote: It turns out that we were some of the extremely few at the tournament who weren't using it. In fact I may have been the only player in the main draw of the singles who WASN'T using Booster. I spoke to a few of my old professional player friends from Europe who confirmed the obvious.

You should all strive to win honestly - yes Speedgluing was great, but its the past, If we were all honest, there would be no need for an elize or enez device. But as the past has shown, humans will cheat for the glory of winning.

People keep stating that the detection devises can be fooled or are not accurate enough. they dont detect Booster, Boosters are safe, etc etc.

Booster may be safe now, but what happens down the track when substances are added, that are undetactable via our Devices, we will have undetectable CHEATS. So it is easier to ban these substances NOW.

Now the argument some of you will use, is that why are manufacturer allowed to Boost, THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION.

My answer to this, and I am no expert, Manufacturers have a much greater chance to make sure that any substance that is used is not harmful to the end user. Imagine the lawsuits. The ITTF at a sniff of something fishy, could easily ban that manufacturer.

Whereas at our level -how easy is it to modify the booster.

Its easy - follow the Rules and we are all on even grounds.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 10:42am
Originally posted by doraemon

I agree with the banning of speed glue for health reason.  However, for all the VOC-free boosters, they cause no harm and yet they are banned also.

This yields to my (probably incorrect) conclusion that what ITTF really intended to do was to slow the game down.  If this is really the case, why not ITTF be honest and say the followings:

1.  We ban speed glue for its hazardous effect on health and to slow the game down.
2.  We ban booster to slow the game down.

I try do to my parts to be honest by not speed gluing and not boosting.  Can ITTF be honest on the reason why they banned VOC-free boosters? (since no reason to associate boosters with potential health problem).

Can I have your opinion on this Mr. President?  Because I really can't find any reasonings for banning booster other than to slow down the game.

P.S.
If ITTF comes clean by saying that they want to slow down the game (which we already know for sure), it is still OK for me.  I enjoy longer rally.  But if you want us to be honest, you must be honest to us also.



Yes, you are right, it is an incorrect conclusion. The so-called speed glue was banned for health reasons is correct. But if manufacturers could produce non-hazardous GLUE that is faster than VOC-glue, it would be accepted as long as it is VOC-free. The ITTF cannot control the speed of play. This is controlled by the players. The players just hit faster, sooner, etc., and can compensate from the loss of speed due to VOC-free glues by using faster blades.

Tuners and Boosters are not allowed because of rule 2.4 "The Racket". Aything other than what is listed in rule 2.4 is not allowed. I would love for that rule to change and let everyone do what they like including smearing theor rackets with delicious strawberry jam. But no one, absolutely no one, ahs come up with a rule change proposal allowing "additives" to what is already listed in Rule 2.4.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 10:48am
Originally posted by haggisv

Originally posted by Adham

This is a reflection of the society in which we live and the way we teach our children. The player from Australia feels bad because 2 players that played against him in Yokohama had their rackets fail the test before the matches. He calls them cheaters and blames the ITTF for creating a mess. Instead, he should thank the ITTF that these players were caught and forced to play with compliant rackets. He blames the umpires for being too strict. Instead, he should thank the umpires for creating a level playing field.

In our society today we have rules and laws for a variety of purposes. But the main reason for rules and laws is to create order and to protect the people. But it is impossible to police every rule and law. It is just humanly impossible, in the general society and in sports, it cannot be done. Some rules are easy to implement and police, while others are based on common sense and on the "honour system". In most cities and countries there are speed limits on the highways and roads. Why? Is it an infringement of my rights? I am free to go as fast as I like, I'm a good driver, and if I want to kill myself speeding that's my business. The speeding rule is in effect not only to protect me, but to protect others from me. But is it reasonable to have every single driver on the road checked for speeding? And do all drivers respect the speed limit when a policeman is not around? Human nature prevails!

It is a crime to cheat on one's income taxes; but Is every tax return free of some "accidental errors"? Is it feasible to audit every single taxpayer? Is it possible to verify that every person who claims to be off sick from work is really sick? Is it feasible to test every single athlete at the Olympics for doping? The answer to all these questions is "No". Then why have these rules if we cannot enforce them? Because we need rules to have law and order and have a system that works; and yes, we need to check and police every once in a while to have checks and balances, but most of all we need to believe in human decency and in the honour system.

Those that believe that it's OK to steal a comb but it's not OK to steal someone's wallet are wrong. It's the same thing. Stealing is wrong. Those in table tennis that believe that if no one is looking and if it is not harmful to one's health, that they can go ahead and cheat and break a clear rule, are also thieves. But can we catch every thief around? No we cannot. So do we abandon our attempts to create a level playing field and implementing our rules as they are clearly stated and voted by the majority? Of course not. If any of you answered "yes" to the last question, then we might as well ask the IOC to abandon its Ant-Doping programme and testing. Let's ask the municipalities to save money and throw away the speed limit signs and the traffic lights. If we cannot have 1,000 security guards in a department store checking every single customer, then let's close down all stores.


The big difference between your examples above, and the ITTF rules regarding boosters is:

1. The rules in your examples are rules that CAN be enforced with good certainty
2. The reasons for these rules are logical, and the benefit to the community has been clearly explained and are obvious.


1. You should read my examples again, my whole point was that it is NOT possible to enforce those rules, yet they remain rules.
2. The reasons for the ITTF rules are also logical and they are for the benefit of the TT community and to allow a level playing field. What is not logical? Rule 2.4 has been in our books for a very long time, the only change is that VOC has been banned. But any other additive was never allowed.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 10:57am
Originally posted by pingpongrob


Baloney - If he was trying to be complaint, he would have used VOC free glue, your argument does not hold water. There is no barely failed. your racket either passes or fails. The Enez machine tested over a set time and the result (green or Red) was displayed after the set time. Don't try and make excuse for other.

Its Simple - Follow the rules and its even for everyone. Break the rules and you gain an advantage, its called cheating, whether its deliberate or not.


Nope.  It's still baloney.  He was trying to be compliant.  He used processes based on reports of actual tests that used the ENEZ device that gave him a very reasonable expectation that his racket would pass.  Unfortunately, he does not own an ENEZ device and could not verify the quite credible reports from both the makers of the ENEZ, a fellow from Newgy, and the USATT that his process did actually work.

Further, anybody that has ever used rubber cement knows that any speed glue effect is gone quite quickly. So even though his racket did (barely) fail, it is clear that he was not doing anything to get a playing advantage by virtue of using a VOC glue.  Further, his racket quite clearly did not emit enough VOCs to bring harm to any players in the area.  Heck, the umpire checking his racket put it up to his nose and sniffed.

And yes, there is a "barely failed" just as there is a "barely lost" for a match.
 
Originally posted by pingpongrob


You should all strive to win honestly - yes Speedgluing was great, but its the past, If we were all honest, there would be no need for an elize or enez device. But as the past has shown, humans will cheat for the glory of winning.

You are aware that gluing a fresh piece of rubber using a VOC free glue can quite easily result in a failed ENEZ test due to the vapors from the glues the manufacturer used - right?  I verified that at the 2008 U.S. Open.
The simple fact is that a racket can fail when a player is not trying to cheat at all.  The further simple fact is that there is no simple way for a player to verify that his racket is compliant short of buying an ENEZ.  And now, it seems that a player needs an ELIZE (not currently available as far as I know) instead.

Originally posted by pingpongrob


People keep stating that the detection devises can be fooled or are not accurate enough. they dont detect Booster, Boosters are safe, etc etc.


Actually, I keep saying that the ENEZ is overly sensitive if the goal is to detect VOC emissions that might actually be harmful.

Originally posted by pingpongrob


Now the argument some of you will use, is that why are manufacturer allowed to Boost, THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION.

My answer to this, and I am no expert, Manufacturers have a much greater chance to make sure that any substance that is used is not harmful to the end user. Imagine the lawsuits. The ITTF at a sniff of something fishy, could easily ban that manufacturer.


That's a horrible argument.  The ITTF has repeatedly accused some manufacturers of putting hazardous substances in boosters.  Further, I've yet to see any ITTF rule that says a manufacturer can do something that would otherwise be illegal if an individual did it.

Originally posted by pingpongrob


Its easy - follow the Rules and we are all on even grounds.

Actually, it is not really easy.  The rules are being interpretted to say Zero VOC emmission.  But how can a player control that when the manufacturing process puts VOCs in the rubber and sponge?  How can the player track the changing sensitivities of the testing devices?  Who knows how sensitive the ELIZE device is?  If you don't know, then how can you be sure your racket will pass? The claim is zero tolerance, but the same rackets that passed the ENEZ six months ago may fail the ELIZE test.  The bottom line is that without your own testing device, you really cannot know if you are compliant.  And technically, I'd bet most rackets emit more than zero VOCs.  Hopefully I will be able to get my own testing device made sometime this month, though it probably won't happen until July.

By your logic, almost everybody is cheating, they just aren't using  a device sensitive enough yet to catch everybody.  I'm betting I can build a device that will be able to detect at least some VOC from any racket.  Time will tell.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:00am
Originally posted by haggisv

Originally posted by Adham


I must have explained at least 20 times on this Forum why Boosters and Tuners (or any additive even if healthy) are banned. All you have to do is read rule 2.4 and rule 2.4.7 of the ITTF "Laws of Table tennis". You will find out that it is clearly written in rule 2.4 the composition of a racket: a blade, a sponge, a rubber and a glue to affix the racket covering to the blade. These are the only 4 elements allowed in a legal racket. Everything else, including boosters, tuners, orange juice, jam, powder, margarine and any other very healthy substance is NOT allowed and illegal according to our current rules. Furthermore, rule 2.4.7 states that the equipment cannot be altered from its original state (after leaving the factory). These two rules will clearly explain why boosters are not allowed. If a national association proposes a change to rule 2.4 or 2.4.7 and more than 75% of the delegates at an Annual General Meeting of the ITTF vote in favour of such a change, then at that time you can add healthy VOC-free substances, until then we kust follow the rules.



Yes you have explained this before on many occassion, but this is simply a means for banning tuners, not a real reason IMO.

Where was this rule (and the enforcement) when speed gluing was widely accepted for at least a decade?

The ITTF brought in the speed glue rules for health reason...I think we all accept that... but the ITTF suddenly decided to enforce rule 2.4.7 when manufacturers brought out healthy (arguably) and VOC free alternatives, and even modified rule 2.4.7... I think you can understand why this has not been so widely accepeted, and why people question the ITTF's motives...


Rule 2.4 exists for as long as I can remember. It specifies what is allowed in the composition of the racket, including glue. At first ANY glue could be used, then VOC-containing glue was banned in 1993, then it was allowed again in the same year, then certain toxic components in glues were banned in 1994-95 (circa). In 2004, yes for health reasons, all VOCs were banned with an implementation date of 2005, delayed to 2006, then finally implemented in 2008. No mater what anyone says this was the right decision and probably more than 10 years too late. But this never changed rule 2.4, it only changed the type of glue to use in the composition of the racket.
Rule 2.4.7 was introduced in 2006 (before the implementation of the glue ban) and its purpose was to prevent "treatment" of rubbers (altering friction, baking, smoothing, etc.).

No rule is "suddenly" enforced. A rule originates either from an expert committee or from a national association. There are deadlines  and timelines to respect. All Propositions (when a rule is proposed) are sent in advance to all national associations for study. Then at the Annual General Meeting the delegates vote on any rule change. In the case of the Laws of Table Tennis a two-third majority is required. So you can imagine that iof a rule is passed it's not done "suddenly" and without thought.

I just have one question: where you ever allowed to "add" anything to your racket other than the blade, the sponge, the rubber and the glue to affix the racket covering to the blade?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:08am
Originally posted by Adham


Yes, you are right, it is an incorrect conclusion. The so-called speed glue was banned for health reasons is correct. But if manufacturers could produce non-hazardous GLUE that is faster than VOC-glue, it would be accepted as long as it is VOC-free.


How can this be correct?  Wouldn't such a glue be in violation of rule 2.4.7 in that it must be modifying the covering in some way?  Or are you agreeing with me that it is OK to modify the sponge so long as the topsheet is not modified?

Originally posted by Adham


Tuners and Boosters are not allowed because of rule 2.4 "The Racket". Aything other than what is listed in rule 2.4 is not allowed. I would love for that rule to change and let everyone do what they like including smearing theor rackets with delicious strawberry jam. But no one, absolutely no one, ahs come up with a rule change proposal allowing "additives" to what is already listed in Rule 2.4.


I covered this.  Sponge is not strictly defined in a manner that would make  it illegal to have non-rubber substances in it.  In fact, Tensor rubbers work on that exact principle if you believe the marketing for those rubbers. Further, cellular rubber it is not every separately or inclusively authorized by the ITTF.  Therefore, so long as the cellular rubber meets the general definition of rubber and cellular rubber it is quite legal. You cannot say that booster is necessarily an additive and is not simply part of the sponge formulation. At least , according to the ITTF rules you cannot say that.

Just as adding a thin coat of sealer to a blade is not an illegal modification, adding a booster to sponge is also not illegal - so long as the booster does not directly affect the top sheet and does not render the sponge or racket to a condition where it no longer meets the ITTF definition of cellular rubber.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote murrayblhrc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:13am
Originally posted by Adham

Originally posted by haggisv

Originally posted by Adham


I must have explained at least 20 times on this Forum why Boosters and Tuners (or any additive even if healthy) are banned. All you have to do is read rule 2.4 and rule 2.4.7 of the ITTF "Laws of Table tennis". You will find out that it is clearly written in rule 2.4 the composition of a racket: a blade, a sponge, a rubber and a glue to affix the racket covering to the blade. These are the only 4 elements allowed in a legal racket. Everything else, including boosters, tuners, orange juice, jam, powder, margarine and any other very healthy substance is NOT allowed and illegal according to our current rules. Furthermore, rule 2.4.7 states that the equipment cannot be altered from its original state (after leaving the factory). These two rules will clearly explain why boosters are not allowed. If a national association proposes a change to rule 2.4 or 2.4.7 and more than 75% of the delegates at an Annual General Meeting of the ITTF vote in favour of such a change, then at that time you can add healthy VOC-free substances, until then we kust follow the rules.



Yes you have explained this before on many occassion, but this is simply a means for banning tuners, not a real reason IMO.

Where was this rule (and the enforcement) when speed gluing was widely accepted for at least a decade?

The ITTF brought in the speed glue rules for health reason...I think we all accept that... but the ITTF suddenly decided to enforce rule 2.4.7 when manufacturers brought out healthy (arguably) and VOC free alternatives, and even modified rule 2.4.7... I think you can understand why this has not been so widely accepeted, and why people question the ITTF's motives...


Rule 2.4 exists for as long as I can remember. It specifies what is allowed in the composition of the racket, including glue. At first ANY glue could be used, then VOC-containing glue was banned in 1993, then it was allowed again in the same year, then certain toxic components in glues were banned in 1994-95 (circa). In 2004, yes for health reasons, all VOCs were banned with an implementation date of 2005, delayed to 2006, then finally implemented in 2008. No mater what anyone says this was the right decision and probably more than 10 years too late. But this never changed rule 2.4, it only changed the type of glue to use in the composition of the racket.
Rule 2.4.7 was introduced in 2006 (before the implementation of the glue ban) and its purpose was to prevent "treatment" of rubbers (altering friction, baking, smoothing, etc.).

No rule is "suddenly" enforced. A rule originates either from an expert committee or from a national association. There are deadlines  and timelines to respect. All Propositions (when a rule is proposed) are sent in advance to all national associations for study. Then at the Annual General Meeting the delegates vote on any rule change. In the case of the Laws of Table Tennis a two-third majority is required. So you can imagine that iof a rule is passed it's not done "suddenly" and without thought.

I just have one question: where you ever allowed to "add" anything to your racket other than the blade, the sponge, the rubber and the glue to affix the racket covering to the blade?


With the anonymity that a forum provides Adham, for as clear a case you make there will always be ignorant, but worse, disrespectful people who will never agree with you. What is empathy?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Adham


No rule is "suddenly" enforced. A rule originates either from an expert committee or from a national association. There are deadlines  and timelines to respect. All Propositions (when a rule is proposed) are sent in advance to all national associations for study. Then at the Annual General Meeting the delegates vote on any rule change. In the case of the Laws of Table Tennis a two-third majority is required. So you can imagine that iof a rule is passed it's not done "suddenly" and without thought.

I just have one question: where you ever allowed to "add" anything to your racket other than the blade, the sponge, the rubber and the glue to affix the racket covering to the blade?


I have a question.  How regularly was the 4mm sandwich thickness tested prior to the VOC ban?  My bet is that it wasn't enfoced often at all.  But the makers of the ENEZ test report the use of speed glue would routinely cause the sandwich to expand beyond 4mm.  So we can be pretty sure that rubbers thicker than 4mm were being used regularly. 

Now, "suddenly" after the advent of the VOC ban, we have a new ITTF Technical Leaflet on racket control that outlines the various ways to check for sandwich thickness and the various devices to use to do the checking.  So, frankly, I do think that we have a case of a sudden change in enforcement of an old rule.

To answer you question above, I believe people were routinely allowed to seal their blades, use edge tape for aesthetic purposes, and to add various grip tapes to their racket handles.  Further, paint sheets and paint are allowed to be added to a non-playing side of the racket.

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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:16am
Originally posted by 77g33k

Originally posted by Adham



...

I must have explained at least 20 times on this Forum why Boosters and Tuners (or any additive even if healthy) are banned. All you have to do is read rule 2.4 and rule 2.4.7 of the ITTF "Laws of Table tennis". You will find out that it is clearly written in rule 2.4 the composition of a racket: a blade, a sponge, a rubber and a glue to affix the racket covering to the blade. These are the only 4 elements allowed in a legal racket. Everything else, including boosters, tuners, orange juice, jam, powder, margarine and any other very healthy substance is NOT allowed and illegal according to our current rules. Furthermore, rule 2.4.7 states that the equipment cannot be altered from its original state (after leaving the factory). These two rules will clearly explain why boosters are not allowed. If a national association proposes a change to rule 2.4 or 2.4.7 and more than 75% of the delegates at an Annual General Meeting of the ITTF vote in favour of such a change, then at that time you can add healthy VOC-free substances, until then we kust follow the rules.

The obsession that many of you have with the ITTF wanting to slow the game down is countered by the obsession that the ITTF favours attackers and is against defenders. This is an interesting contradiction that negates both preceptions. Of course the ITTF wishes to have our game more "television friendly". In this day and age we need to promote our game through television. The increase in the size of the ball is a change that was done for television and to make it easier for people of all ages to play our sport. It also did slow the game down. But the ban of VOC-glue was for a totally different reason. And the ban of Boosters is because it is aginst our rules.


Sir,

Even though you are the ITTF president, I respectfully and very strongly(This is the strongest and politest word that I can think of.) disagree on your points and analogies, on both of your last two posts.


Point 1:

Equating gaining an advantage and stealing makes you sound like an RIAA/MPAA executive. They are not the same and will never be. Humans are built and have evolve to take the shortest and easiest path. It's in their nature. If anyone thinks that nobody is harmed, then they will always do it no matter how you justify otherwise. If you think and believe otherwise though, then all I can say is that you're naive and so innocent in the current workings of a society which I find hard to believe in a savvy politician such as yourself.


Point 2:

The basics in jurisprudence is that any good laws should be implementable without any ambiguity. It must be probable beyond reasonable doubt, that is, most of the time. You should not assume that everyone will not do it because it is "bad". If you cannot implement it that way, then it is better if you will not make such law since most of the time, the only ones that are harmed are the ones following it, while those in the breach having the advantage.


Point 3:

With regards to the implementation of 40mm ball, slowing down the game and your insistence that it does not harm defenders(it's all about lack of coaching), you are completely ignoring the laws of physics.

38mm ball == speed++ with spin++
40mm ball with speed glue == speed+ with spin+
40mm ball without speed glue == speed with spin--

Coupled with the so called aspect ratio limitation of pips, defenders are harmed more than attackers. Also, with the speed glue ban, all out attackers(penholders non RPB) are also very much affected. Ignoring these effects are ignoring the laws of physics and have never played as a defender or played single-sided penhold(I played both).


PS:

Making modern table tennis appealing to the masses is pipe dream. It will never be, the reason is named "Higher Learning Curve". If we based it on history, table tennis is more popular when it is very very slow (i.e. hardbat and sandpaper era). So, if you want to popularize "table tennis" then ban all smooth rubbers and sponges all together and "maybe just maybe" popularity will come to back your "table tennis" game.

My take. Thank you :)


Addressing your points:

1. To take advantage within the rules is fine, to take advantage of opportunities is fine: but to cheat and steal thinking we are not harming anyone is still wrong. This is how I was brought up, then I must be innocent and naive.

2. I really cannot follow your logic nor the three contradictions in the same sentence. Most rules cannot be enforced. 50% of the population is not the police. So many of us go about our day never meeting a policeman, but we still follow the rules and do not break the law.

3. I never played competitively as a pen-holder, although I did in practice very often and also in coaching. I played as a competitive defensive player in the top 5 in my country and represented my country in some international competitions. I also coached seriously as of 1971 and attended every world championships since 1973. I am also an Engineer and understand physics very well.

Of course a larger ball without the equivalent weight increase would be slower and produce less spin. But the ball is not the variable. The ball is the constant. The variable is the player. It just took the top players less than three months to produce the same speed and spin as with the 38mm ball, it's just that it took more physical effort. You can compensate for the loss of speed because of the new glues with a faster and harder blade, with more acce;ration in your technique, etc. So, yes, coaching is essential. If you play exactly the same way as you did with the 38mm ball or with the VOC-glue, then of course you will feel a loss of speed and spin. But if you adjust your technique and work harder physically, then you can regain and even surpass the previous spin and speed. This is obvious when you watch the top players.

Well, my friend I'm a dreamer. Your pipe dream is my objective. This is why I am President of the ITTF. I want our sport to appeal to the masses and we will do everything we can to achieve it.

You can give up if you like, you can complain about rules that were passed in the years 2000 (ball), 2001 (11-points), 2002 (open service), 1958 (Racket), 2006 (treating), etc. But I prefer to move on and try to realize the dream.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:32am
Originally posted by Tinykin_2



Yes you have explained this before on many occassion, but this is simply a means for banning tuners, not a real reason IMO.

Where was this rule (and the enforcement) when speed gluing was widely accepted for at least a decade?

The ITTF brought in the speed glue rules for health reason...I think we all accept that... but the ITTF suddenly decided to enforce rule 2.4.7 when manufacturers brought out healthy (arguably) and VOC free alternatives, and even modified rule 2.4.7... I think you can understand why this has not been so widely accepted, and why people question the ITTF's motives...


Adham,
I hope you take this post seriously and not just dismiss it as post by grumpy ex-speedgluers .
Your problem is now a matter of trust.
Many posters in the TT forums including your most ardent supporters believe that the ITTF banned boosters to slow the game down. That was the original explanation in the nineties for the SG ban, when you were not yet Chaiman.
You need to give a more convincing explanation.


First of all I am not in this Forum to defend my credibility. It is not your place to judge me. My character and my demeanor speak for themselves. But I do take this post very seriously, otherwise why would I take the time to answer every one, which by the way is very time consuming especially if I have to repeat the same thing so many times. However, I am willing to do it.

As I explained, the speed of our sport is neither determined by the rules nor the equipment. The equipment used can be an enhancement to the style adopted by each player. But speed and spin are "mainly" determined by the technique. A good coach could show you how to hit much harder and much faster with proper technique. The same applies to spin. Perhaps at the lower levels there is too much dependence on the equipment, and too much concern about rules, whereas I recommend much more focus on training and technique.




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Post Options Post Options   Quote Hans Regenkurt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:33am
How about the percentage of failed rackets at the worlds (enez, elize, thickness) in the main draw and in the whole tournament?
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:48am
Originally posted by wturber

Originally posted by Adham


I must have explained at least 20 times on this Forum why Boosters and Tuners (or any additive even if healthy) are banned. All you have to do is read rule 2.4 and rule 2.4.7 of the ITTF "Laws of Table tennis". You will find out that it is clearly written in rule 2.4 the composition of a racket: a blade, a sponge, a rubber and a glue to affix the racket covering to the blade. These are the only 4 elements allowed in a legal racket. Everything else, including boosters, tuners, orange juice, jam, powder, margarine and any other very healthy substance is NOT allowed and illegal according to our current rules.

Yes, but you consistently fail to acknowledge that what constitutes sponge is not well defined and that sponge is not independently authorized or approved.
Originally posted by Adham


Furthermore, rule 2.4.7 states that the equipment cannot be altered from its original state (after leaving the factory).


Please re-read 2.4.7.  It does not say anything about factories and it only refers to covering materials "as authorized."  Since top sheets are authorized sans sponge and since particular sponges are not authorized separately, 2.4.7 quite clearly does not apply to sponge.

Originally posted by Adham


 These two rules will clearly explain why boosters are not allowed. If a national association proposes a change to rule 2.4 or 2.4.7 and more than 75% of the delegates at an Annual General Meeting of the ITTF vote in favour of such a change, then at that time you can add healthy VOC-free substances, until then we kust follow the rules.


No, they do not.  Here is rule 2.4.7

2.4.7 The covering material should be used as it has been authorised by the ITTF without any physical, chemical or other treatment, changing or modifying playing properties, friction, outlook, colour, structure, surface, etc.

It only prohibits the alteration of the top sheet.  Glue, sponge and the racket itself are quite open to alteration from their factory condition so long as such alterations do not change those items from being in a compliant state to a non-compliant state.



In fact you can do what you want to the sponge, this is never checked as long as it meets the total thickness allowance with the rubber), but if it emits VOCs then the racket is illegal. Also if you treat the sponge with let's say a Booster, the real effect is for the booster to be absorbed by the sponge and then by the rubber, which has an effect of expanding the rubber. This is illegal according to rule 2.4.7.
Regarding authorization of rubbers, the ITTF authorizes the samples provided by the factories and permits them (authorizes) the use of the ITTF logo on the rubber. Any alterations after that are illegal. So if the factory uses some materials to enhance the performance of the sponge and the rubber, then airs the racket covering carefully and ensures that all VOCs have gone, then it is legal.
I hope I answered your questions.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 11:57am
Originally posted by wturber

Originally posted by Adham


No rule is "suddenly" enforced. A rule originates either from an expert committee or from a national association. There are deadlines  and timelines to respect. All Propositions (when a rule is proposed) are sent in advance to all national associations for study. Then at the Annual General Meeting the delegates vote on any rule change. In the case of the Laws of Table Tennis a two-third majority is required. So you can imagine that iof a rule is passed it's not done "suddenly" and without thought.

I just have one question: where you ever allowed to "add" anything to your racket other than the blade, the sponge, the rubber and the glue to affix the racket covering to the blade?


I have a question.  How regularly was the 4mm sandwich thickness tested prior to the VOC ban?  My bet is that it wasn't enfoced often at all.  But the makers of the ENEZ test report the use of speed glue would routinely cause the sandwich to expand beyond 4mm.  So we can be pretty sure that rubbers thicker than 4mm were being used regularly. 

Now, "suddenly" after the advent of the VOC ban, we have a new ITTF Technical Leaflet on racket control that outlines the various ways to check for sandwich thickness and the various devices to use to do the checking.  So, frankly, I do think that we have a case of a sudden change in enforcement of an old rule.

To answer you question above, I believe people were routinely allowed to seal their blades, use edge tape for aesthetic purposes, and to add various grip tapes to their racket handles.  Further, paint sheets and paint are allowed to be added to a non-playing side of the racket.



I would say that the thickness level was not strictly enforced by the racket control, because then this was the job of the umpire who would check the racket at the table. The racket control then was only concerned about 4 types of VOCs, which were detected using the Draeger Tube method. The current racket control checks all items of the rule now (thickness, flatness, VOC, etc).

All the items you mention are allowed according to our rules except the tape. 

Technical leaflets are not produced suddenly. They are edited and modified every year in accordnace to the rules and based on need, then approved by the proper authority. There is nothing that is "suddenly" as you think. We are not a fly by night outfit, we are an International feederation just like all other IFs and we have a system that we follow.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 12:00pm
Originally posted by Hans Regenkurt

How about the percentage of failed rackets at the worlds (enez, elize, thickness) in the main draw and in the whole tournament?


Elize was just used for educational purposes and the results are confidential. However, using the current method with Enez, I believe that about 3 or 4 players were disqualified (failed the after the match test). I do not have the statistics of how many failed the pre-match voluntary tests.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 12:05pm
Dear friends,

I humbly apologize if I did not answer you all in this thread. I have run out of time and must go.

I salute the Australian and Brazilian National Teams for not using any additives and I am sure that many more did not use any additives either and I salute them as well.

It is important to realize that to change one's playing level and improve in significant increments, it can only be done through serious and hard practice, with sound technical and physical training. All else is minor and easily adjustable.

So, please look forward, adapt to the conditions, and enjoy our sport.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 12:52pm
Originally posted by Adham


In fact you can do what you want to the sponge, this is never checked as long as it meets the total thickness allowance with the rubber), but if it emits VOCs then the racket is illegal.


Of course if anything racket emits VOCs, the racket is illegal.  So we agree here that in principle, a non-VOC booster applied to the sponge might be legal.  Good.

Originally posted by Adham


Also if you treat the sponge with let's say a Booster, the real effect is for the booster to be absorbed by the sponge and then by the rubber, which has an effect of expanding the rubber. This is illegal according to rule 2.4.7.


Well, that is not necessarily the case.  You can't know the action of all boosters or all methods of application.  If the booster is not absorbed by the rubber topsheet and if the sponge is not used to expand or stretch the topsheet, then the booster would be quite legal.  So any test for boosters would have to show that either the booster is present in the topsheet or that the topsheet had been stretched or expanded in some way. 

Originally posted by Adham


Regarding authorization of rubbers, the ITTF authorizes the samples provided by the factories and permits them (authorizes) the use of the ITTF logo on the rubber. Any alterations after that are illegal. So if the factory uses some materials to enhance the performance of the sponge and the rubber, then airs the racket covering carefully and ensures that all VOCs have gone, then it is legal.


Yes, so long as these enhancements are the same ones that are done to the rubber topsheet prior to authorization.  Of course, the sponge is never part of the authorization process.  So any enhancements to or substances added to the sponge would have to be done in a manner that the substances do not migrate to or otherwise alter the topsheet.  This is the same as if a player independently modifies sponge.  So there is no special factory boosting "waiver" as many people assert.  The topsheet must be used as authorized.

Originally posted by Adham


I hope I answered your questions.


Yes.  And the effort is appreciated.  I do think your blanket statement that boosters are illegal is not truly correct.  They are potentially legal. Assuming that they are VOC free, it all depends on whether or not their action is limited to affecting the sponge or if they also affect the top sheet.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 1:15pm
Originally posted by Adham


I would say that the thickness level was not strictly enforced by the racket control, because then this was the job of the umpire who would check the racket at the table.


Right.  It was an old rule that was largely ignored and is no longer being ignored.  I have no desire to get into the semantics of the use of the word "suddenly", but this change of enforcement policy on existing rules is exactly the type of thing that was being referred to.  There is little room to doubt many rackets would have failed a simple examination for rubber thickness using an inexpensive loupe with a .1mm measuring reticle. Item 2.3 of the 2009 ITTF Racket Control "Official Message" says, "The thickness of racket coverings seemed to systematically exceed the limits of 4mm."

Of course the thickness was being "systematically exceeded."  Speed glue expands the sponge.  This is common knowledge in table tennis circles. But there was no will or significant effort to enforce the 4mm sandwich rubber limit.  That will is newly arrived and coincides with the long coming but nonetheless new, VOC ban.

Originally posted by Adham


All the items you mention are allowed according to our rules except the tape. 


Quite right.  And that fact points out that one must be careful of what specifically is meant when one says that a racket consists of only four things.  The simple fact is that some of those four things may be composed of multiple elements themselves - which was my point.

Originally posted by Adham


Technical leaflets are not produced suddenly. They are edited and modified every year in accordnace to the rules and based on need, then approved by the proper authority. There is nothing that is "suddenly" as you think. We are not a fly by night outfit, we are an International feederation just like all other IFs and we have a system that we follow.


I would not and did not suggest that the ITTF is a "fly-by-night" outfit or that their technical leaflets are not put together with due care.  But I do observe that we had an existing rule that was not being enforced while it easily could have been.  And now that rule is being enforced with vigor. I think that was the point originally being made.  Whether this change in enforcement was sudden or not is not a particularly important part of the observation.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Ausquared Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 3:15pm
Originally posted by Adham


I must have explained at least 20 times on this Forum why Boosters and Tuners (or any additive even if healthy) are banned. All you have to do is read rule 2.4 and rule 2.4.7 of the ITTF "Laws of Table tennis". You will find out that it is clearly written in rule 2.4 the composition of a racket: a blade, a sponge, a rubber and a glue to affix the racket covering to the blade. These are the only 4 elements allowed in a legal racket. Everything else, including boosters, tuners, orange juice, jam, powder, margarine and any other very healthy substance is NOT allowed and illegal according to our current rules. Furthermore, rule 2.4.7 states that the equipment cannot be altered from its original state (after leaving the factory). These two rules will clearly explain why boosters are not allowed. If a national association proposes a change to rule 2.4 or 2.4.7 and more than 75% of the delegates at an Annual General Meeting of the ITTF vote in favour of such a change, then at that time you can add healthy VOC-free substances, until then we kust follow the rules.




Rule 2.4 has been in existence for a long time, and speed glue was a perfectly excepted part of the game. So when we as players ask you "why are glues/boosters banned?" and you reply with "we must follow the rules",  that really holds little water. In fact, it's total avoidance of the question. Why is such a seemingly important rule only enforced now? How good as a rule if it was blatantly ignored for years? It makes the ITTF look very amateurish.

Action: ITTF tells us Speed Glue is going to be banned due to health reasons.

Reaction: Manufactures develop low-VOC "VOC free" boosters.

Action: Months pass and the ITTF says nothing. The online community starts hearing rumors of booster ban. Mind you there was barely ANY official statements from the ITTF on this. We here on this forum and other forums had to rely on sketchy letters from various ITTF officials and associates as well as manufacturers. We were left in the dark until the very last minute. I truely hope you understand why so many people are upset by this. And then to boot, the reasoning you so often give for the ban of boosters is "they were never legal, it is against the rules". Regardless of what you consider "sudden", there was never enforcement of rule 2.4, but now that rule 2.4 has become pertinent in the current situation, it will be observed and enforced. If it weren't happening right in front of our eyes I would be skeptical to believe that an international organization of the ITTF's caliber would be so inept at enforcing it's own rules, or poor at communicating it's rules and vision of the sport.

Adham, on multiple occasions you have said that the ITTF is only concerned about ITTF events and proffesional level players, and that national and local associations are free to do as they like. But the rules the ITTF has made, and that you continue to support have a huge effect on us, the little guy, and by saying that you are really slapping us in the face. For the most part, people on this forum are the average player who will never get near an ITTF event, but because we respect the ITTF as the governing body of our sport, we wish to comply with the rules that are set forth. There has been SO MUCH confusion about the speedglue ban, subsequent booster ban, and rule 2.47 that it would be nice if we could get a better answer than "these are the rules and we must follow them".  The ITTF has a duty to the table tennis community whether they like it or not, which involves promoting the sport, it's players, and the game itself, and it has failed badly imo in recent months. I understand that you personally are not responsible for all or even some parts of the problem, but you do continue to justify things that I and others strongly dissagree with, and you do it in a way that is quite infuriating at times.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote onurzaim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 4:37pm
I do not believe honesty of some players here. Unless Enez has gotten out of factory with wrong calibration you will never ever going to have positive on your tests if you are not really breaking a rule.

I have used doinc extreme booster on purpose on put it into my racket case side by side with my main racket. My main racket did not fail the test. I told the refrees about it. They were strict about the rule and I was happy that I passed the test. I was really afraid reading all stories here.

Personally I like this new change because of 2 reasons.

I bought a clean racket and glued it. After that everyday I was training with the same racket I left from the training session before. Boosters or glues sometimes made me uncertain about some shots if I was not carefull. Now I don not have any problem about maintaining my strokes for a different touch. This improved my confidence and now I can understand certain points of tabletennis that top players excelled at.

Second thing is my bag, training hall does not smell anymore. Only sweat smell is dominant if the hall is hot. Nothing else.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 4:54pm
Originally posted by onurzaim

I do not believe honesty of some players here. Unless Enez has gotten out of factory with wrong calibration you will never ever going to have positive on your tests if you are not really breaking a rule.


I guess it depends on what you define as breaking a rule.  If you define that as not having a racket that emits any VOCs, then just about everyone is breaking that rule.  The only question is by how much. The ITTF has clearly stated that they intend to test for lower levels of VOC.  That your racket passes the ENEZ test doesn't mean it complies with the ITTF rules.

There are multiple documented counts that show that a rubber fresh out of a package can easily cause an ENEZ failure.  I've had such a test done myself at the 2008 U.S. Open.  The test was done by a USATT umpire at my request.  Two rackets were tested.  One was just assembled using TearMender and new rubber.  The other had been assembled using VOC glue but had been assembled at least a month earlier.  The VOC glue racket passed, the VOC free glue racket - with brand new rubber - failed. It clearly failed because the rubber was still emitting VOC that were there from the factory.

BTW, a broken TT ball will cause the ENEZ test to fail.  So next time someone breaks a table tennis ball, RUN!!!!!!!  But seriously, this fact points out that the ENEZ is simply more sensitive than necessary to ensure that rackets are sufficiently clean and safe and that players aren't gaining an advantage from using VOCs.  The quest for more sensitive tests so as to detect the presence of boosters is misguided IMO.  As is the zero tolerance threshold.


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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 6:50pm
Originally posted by wturber

Originally posted by Adham


I would say that the thickness level was not strictly enforced by the racket control, because then this was the job of the umpire who would check the racket at the table.


Right.  It was an old rule that was largely ignored and is no longer being ignored.  I have no desire to get into the semantics of the use of the word "suddenly", but this change of enforcement policy on existing rules is exactly the type of thing that was being referred to.  There is little room to doubt many rackets would have failed a simple examination for rubber thickness using an inexpensive loupe with a .1mm measuring reticle. Item 2.3 of the 2009 ITTF Racket Control "Official Message" says, "The thickness of racket coverings seemed to systematically exceed the limits of 4mm."

Of course the thickness was being "systematically exceeded."  Speed glue expands the sponge.  This is common knowledge in table tennis circles. But there was no will or significant effort to enforce the 4mm sandwich rubber limit.  That will is newly arrived and coincides with the long coming but nonetheless new, VOC ban.

Originally posted by Adham


All the items you mention are allowed according to our rules except the tape. 


Quite right.  And that fact points out that one must be careful of what specifically is meant when one says that a racket consists of only four things.  The simple fact is that some of those four things may be composed of multiple elements themselves - which was my point.

Originally posted by Adham


Technical leaflets are not produced suddenly. They are edited and modified every year in accordnace to the rules and based on need, then approved by the proper authority. There is nothing that is "suddenly" as you think. We are not a fly by night outfit, we are an International feederation just like all other IFs and we have a system that we follow.


I would not and did not suggest that the ITTF is a "fly-by-night" outfit or that their technical leaflets are not put together with due care.  But I do observe that we had an existing rule that was not being enforced while it easily could have been.  And now that rule is being enforced with vigor. I think that was the point originally being made.  Whether this change in enforcement was sudden or not is not a particularly important part of the observation.


OK, understood. Yes, the rule is being enforced much more now than before, you are correct about that.
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by Ausquared

Originally posted by Adham


I must have explained at least 20 times on this Forum why Boosters and Tuners (or any additive even if healthy) are banned. All you have to do is read rule 2.4 and rule 2.4.7 of the ITTF "Laws of Table tennis". You will find out that it is clearly written in rule 2.4 the composition of a racket: a blade, a sponge, a rubber and a glue to affix the racket covering to the blade. These are the only 4 elements allowed in a legal racket. Everything else, including boosters, tuners, orange juice, jam, powder, margarine and any other very healthy substance is NOT allowed and illegal according to our current rules. Furthermore, rule 2.4.7 states that the equipment cannot be altered from its original state (after leaving the factory). These two rules will clearly explain why boosters are not allowed. If a national association proposes a change to rule 2.4 or 2.4.7 and more than 75% of the delegates at an Annual General Meeting of the ITTF vote in favour of such a change, then at that time you can add healthy VOC-free substances, until then we kust follow the rules.




Rule 2.4 has been in existence for a long time, and speed glue was a perfectly excepted part of the game. So when we as players ask you "why are glues/boosters banned?" and you reply with "we must follow the rules",  that really holds little water. In fact, it's total avoidance of the question. Why is such a seemingly important rule only enforced now? How good as a rule if it was blatantly ignored for years? It makes the ITTF look very amateurish.

Action: ITTF tells us Speed Glue is going to be banned due to health reasons.

Reaction: Manufactures develop low-VOC "VOC free" boosters.

Action: Months pass and the ITTF says nothing. The online community starts hearing rumors of booster ban. Mind you there was barely ANY official statements from the ITTF on this. We here on this forum and other forums had to rely on sketchy letters from various ITTF officials and associates as well as manufacturers. We were left in the dark until the very last minute. I truely hope you understand why so many people are upset by this. And then to boot, the reasoning you so often give for the ban of boosters is "they were never legal, it is against the rules". Regardless of what you consider "sudden", there was never enforcement of rule 2.4, but now that rule 2.4 has become pertinent in the current situation, it will be observed and enforced. If it weren't happening right in front of our eyes I would be skeptical to believe that an international organization of the ITTF's caliber would be so inept at enforcing it's own rules, or poor at communicating it's rules and vision of the sport.

Adham, on multiple occasions you have said that the ITTF is only concerned about ITTF events and proffesional level players, and that national and local associations are free to do as they like. But the rules the ITTF has made, and that you continue to support have a huge effect on us, the little guy, and by saying that you are really slapping us in the face. For the most part, people on this forum are the average player who will never get near an ITTF event, but because we respect the ITTF as the governing body of our sport, we wish to comply with the rules that are set forth. There has been SO MUCH confusion about the speedglue ban, subsequent booster ban, and rule 2.47 that it would be nice if we could get a better answer than "these are the rules and we must follow them".  The ITTF has a duty to the table tennis community whether they like it or not, which involves promoting the sport, it's players, and the game itself, and it has failed badly imo in recent months. I understand that you personally are not responsible for all or even some parts of the problem, but you do continue to justify things that I and others strongly dissagree with, and you do it in a way that is quite infuriating at times.




I really don't know how else to make you understand, or is it that you prefer not to understand? I will make one more attempt addressing your points as best I can. here goes:
1. Lets call the banned glues VOC-glues instead of speed-glues. The intent of the glue in rule 2.4 is to affix the racket covering to the blade. It was never intended as a performance enhancing element. By accident a Hungarian player (Klampar) discovered bicycle glue (very toxic) and used it and had a special effect. he kept this fact secret for about 8 months, then was discovered and the rest is history. The smell alone of the glue was an indication that the product was extremely volatile. Re-gluing came much later. This is because it was not in the habit of the players to re-glue then, but those using the bicycle glue noticed that when they replaced their used rubber the "fresh glue" effect was very powerful. So again, accidentally when using an old sheet but re-glued, the fresh glue effect was there again. Hence the re-gluing that became part of the TT culture. No problem so far. No problem with speed or spin or re-gluing, everyone accepted. Until it was brought to the attention of the ITTF the contents of such products (glues). Many studies were made and over a period of 2 years (1990-93 circa) the ITTF examined the effects of such products. It was finally decided to ban the VOC-glues completely, then the ITTF retracted and only banned the most toxic components of the VOC-glues, 4 components to be exact. Racket control testing then started in 1993 and one player was even disqualified at the World Championships in Tianjin in 1995 (Kim Taek Soo).
2. In 2004 the ban of ALL VOCs was passed by the ITTF, which was finally implemented in 2008. During the 4-year period the ITTF did a lot of research and tested the effects of VOCs and received a lot of studies from various places regarding the effects of the repeated exposure to VOCs and how to detect them.
3. The products that first came on the market and sold as Boosters and Tuners were "immediately" examined by the ITTF and tested seriously over a period of about 3-4 months. All of the products contained VOCs. At least 2 contained other forms of poisons that if ingested would cause serious harm especially to children. The manufacturers were given the reports and the respectable ones immediately stopped producing these products. Therefore, if boosters and tuners contain VOCs, they are treated in the same category as any other part of the racket that contains VOCs, it's clearly illegal.
4. It is a well known fact, and some manufacturers print it on their package that the rubber must be aired for at least 48 hours before use. It is even better to air for 72 hours top get rid of any VOCs.
5. I have nothing against harmless oils that are added to the sponge. But all of these oils without exception are absorbed by the rubber and alter the rubber by expanding it. This is also illegal, if such expansion happens AFTER the authorization process.
6. The ITTF is NOT your sport governing body. Your national association is your SGB. The ITTF is the sport governing body at the International level only. This is the structure of all IFs, not just the ITTF. I am sorry if you consider that a slap in the face, it is not meant to be. This is how sport is structured.
7. There is no confusion at all. Confusion is created by those who fail to accept what is clear. It is clear that VOCs are banned, so accept and don't use any products containing VOC. Very clear. It is clear that "additives" were never legal and are not legal. So do not "add" anything to your racket that is not allowed by the rules. Maybe this is not so clear. So to clarify, if you add something to the sponge part only, ensure that it is VOC-free, then attach it to the rubber and you do not alter the rubber in any way, then it is OK. Now clearer. That's it. Very clear.

I hope I was able to "answer" you this time. I am sure it is NOT the answer you want, but that is it. I will not make any more attempts.

Adham Sharara
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pingpongrob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote pingpongrob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 7:58pm
Originally posted by wturber

Originally posted by pingpongrob


Baloney - If he was trying to be complaint, he would have used VOC free glue, your argument does not hold water. There is no barely failed. your racket either passes or fails. The Enez machine tested over a set time and the result (green or Red) was displayed after the set time. Don't try and make excuse for other.

Its Simple - Follow the rules and its even for everyone. Break the rules and you gain an advantage, its called cheating, whether its deliberate or not.


Nope.  It's still baloney.  He was trying to be compliant.  He used processes based on reports of actual tests that used the ENEZ device that gave him a very reasonable expectation that his racket would pass.  Unfortunately, he does not own an ENEZ device and could not verify the quite credible reports from both the makers of the ENEZ, a fellow from Newgy, and the USATT that his process did actually work.

Further, anybody that has ever used rubber cement knows that any speed glue effect is gone quite quickly. So even though his racket did (barely) fail, it is clear that he was not doing anything to get a playing advantage by virtue of using a VOC glue.  Further, his racket quite clearly did not emit enough VOCs to bring harm to any players in the area.  Heck, the umpire checking his racket put it up to his nose and sniffed.

And yes, there is a "barely failed" just as there is a "barely lost" for a match.
 

Look, Who are you trying to fool - the enez machine does not have a scale. Its ON or OFF - GOOD or BAD. See the Difference - Your mates Racket Failed. That's it end of Story.

Now if he had followed the Correct procedure as, has been stated in many publications on the ITTF website, and Forums like these.

1. Air New Rubbers, as they might have manufacturing fumes still present.
2. Use VOC free glue to apply your rubber or VOC Free Application Sheets.

His Racket would not have failed. - See its easy.

Now to the members that still thing its OK to boost because they are only modifying the Sponge. It would be impossible for the Booster not to travel to the rubber - and affect its playing characteristics. Lets face it, its applied to the sponge and 15mins later it has disappeared, just like it soaks into the sponge, it will travel to the Rubber Topsheet.
And just like the effect diminishes after a few Weeks - where does this product go - some must go through the topsheet and affect it.

SEE - every statement we make, you have an answer for - yet even those that have Physics Degree's Cant see the Obvious.

The Enez machine was accurate, but due to people putting jars of Speedglue in it, and other substances, that were well over the threshold of the machine - It was Corrupted - with no way of recalibrating it. Its not the Machines fault, but the users fault. A machine that fails a genuine New aired rubber thats been glued onto a blade with Genuine VOC free glues should be Returned back to the manufacturer and no longer used. From what I have seen, to many examples of these faulty machine have been brought into discussions on this and many other Forums. Its a bit like the Sardine that was caught by the little boy fisherman - but ends up being a 20 pound Tuna by the time the story gets to the PUB.

One last Point to those that complain about Brand New Rubbers failing out of the Packet. Some manufacturers try to glue the Topsheet to the sponge with products that are Substantially lower than the threshold set by the ITTF. These Generally have the BIOS logo on them.

I can tell you that my Racket has never failed, and neither have many rackets that I have made up for my Team mates. Yet one racket that had been SpeedGlued - And the player was Honest before the Test, FAILED.

I have people that still request Speedglue, and I tell them that its Illegal, but they don't care. Some say they only play at home so it doesn't matter. To me that's OK, as I will never be competing against these players, but if they ever did, with a speedglued racket, they would be cheating.

Personally I feel Sorry for Adham, he has had to answer the same Question many times over, and has done so in an excellant manner.

Lets not talk about the Past, as we cannot change it. Lets talk about the Future.

Lets not talk about speedglue & boosters - they are the past - Lets talk about ways to increase the Spin, Power & feeling, whilst complying with the current rules and Regulations. And if they change, we must change with them.
Distributor for Andro, Donic, Dawei, 729 & Yinhe
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igorponger View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote igorponger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 8:16pm
   HAIFU OIL SHALL NOT PASS EITHER... ITTF has conceived a scheme to control ANY boosters whatever. http://umpire2.narod.ru/boost1.gif        SD --Standard Lenght =100.0 mm    The red marks are affixed to the rubber sheet a proper while AFTER the end of production process, that is when the rubber geometry is well settled. If, on checking the actual SD by racket inspector, an increment to the SD is over 3.o mm, this will always indicate deliberate heavy boosting on the rubber/sponge.     BE ALERT OF EMBOSSED TRIANGLES TO COME WITH YOUR NEW RUBBER !! :)
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 9:05pm
Originally posted by pingpongrob


Look, Who are you trying to fool - the enez machine does not have a scale. Its ON or OFF - GOOD or BAD. See the Difference - Your mates Racket Failed. That's it end of Story.


I'm trying to fool nobody.  I've followed this issue fairly closely from the beginning.  I even provided TearMender glue to Larry Thoman from Newgy so that he could check to see how the ENEZ device reacted to it.  This is from his report on the usage of the ENEZ devices that his company purchased.

"BTW, it appears that you can get an indication of the level of VOC in a racket by how early in the test a racket fails. Rackets that fail very late in the process, are apparently very close to the allowable limit. Rackets that fail pretty quickly, say at 30 seconds or so, apparently are well above the allowable limits."


Originally posted by pingpongrob


Now if he had followed the Correct procedure as, has been stated in many publications on the ITTF website, and Forums like these.


Now who are you trying to fool.  There is no "correct procedure."  There are only recommendations. He followed most of the recommendatins and by all previous accounts his racket should have passed, but it did not.  Of course he had to suffer the consequences of that, and I understand that.  The problem I have is your assertion that because someone's racket failed the test that the person was necessarily trying to cheat.  That's baloney.

Originally posted by pingpongrob


Now to the members that still thing its OK to boost because they are only modifying the Sponge. It would be impossible for the Booster not to travel to the rubber - and affect its playing characteristics. Lets face it, its applied to the sponge and 15mins later it has disappeared, just like it soaks into the sponge, it will travel to the Rubber Topsheet.


It not only has to travel to the rubber topsheet, but it has to alter its playing characteristics.

Originally posted by pingpongrob


And just like the effect diminishes after a few Weeks - where does this product go - some must go through the topsheet and affect it.


I would assume it evaporates.  Cellular rubber has a very large surface area exposed to the air. 

Originally posted by pingpongrob


SEE - every statement we make, you have an answer for - yet even those that have Physics Degree's Cant see the Obvious.


When the statements are not consistent with reality or with the rules, yes, I take issue with them.  Even Adham Sharara has just admitted on this forum that boosters are potentially legal and that if someone made a non-VOC speed glue that it would be legal.  He's pretty much conceded my point at this juncture of the discussion.

Originally posted by pingpongrob


One last Point to those that complain about Brand New Rubbers failing out of the Packet. Some manufacturers try to glue the Topsheet to the sponge with products that are Substantially lower than the threshold set by the ITTF. These Generally have the BIOS logo on them.


Once again, who are you trying to fool.  There is no set threshold other than zero.  And the ENEZ test threshold cannot be applied to a glue product.  It only tests the air around a racket.  It can't test glues directly.  I do not believe that the BIOS designation guarantees zero VOCs.  But if you can point to a resource that says otherwise, I'd be happy to review it. 

Originally posted by pingpongrob


Lets not talk about the Past, as we cannot change it. Lets talk about the Future.


Let's not blindly call people who have rackets that fail, "cheaters."  Not everybody follows online posts or the latest in what is happening with processes to air out the last bit of VOCs from a racket or even the need to do so.  There are many ways for well intended innocent players to wind up with a racket that fails ENEZ - or some other technical requirement.

BTW, the whole booster issue is a question about the future and what is the correct interpretation of existing rules.
Jay Turberville
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wturber View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote wturber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by igorponger

HAIFU OIL WILL NOT PASS EITHER...               ITTF has conseived a scheme to control ANY boosters.       http://umpire2.narod.ru/boost1.gif                    SD --Standard Lenght =100.0 mm      The red marks are affixed to the rubber sheet a proper time AFTER the end of prodaction process, that is when the rubber geometry is well settled.    On checking the actual SD by racket inspector, an increment over 3.o mm will always indicate deliberate heavy boosting on the rubber/sponge. BE ALERT OF ANY RELIEF TRIANGLES OVER YOUR NEW RUBBER !! :)


This had better be before the sponge has been applied, while the topsheet is in a state where the sponge cannot affect is dimensionally.  Otherwise, the  validity of the reference marks will be suspect.
Jay Turberville
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Adham View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote Adham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 10:09pm
Originally posted by pingpongrob

Originally posted by wturber

Originally posted by pingpongrob


Baloney - If he was trying to be complaint, he would have used VOC free glue, your argument does not hold water. There is no barely failed. your racket either passes or fails. The Enez machine tested over a set time and the result (green or Red) was displayed after the set time. Don't try and make excuse for other.

Its Simple - Follow the rules and its even for everyone. Break the rules and you gain an advantage, its called cheating, whether its deliberate or not.


Nope.  It's still baloney.  He was trying to be compliant.  He used processes based on reports of actual tests that used the ENEZ device that gave him a very reasonable expectation that his racket would pass.  Unfortunately, he does not own an ENEZ device and could not verify the quite credible reports from both the makers of the ENEZ, a fellow from Newgy, and the USATT that his process did actually work.

Further, anybody that has ever used rubber cement knows that any speed glue effect is gone quite quickly. So even though his racket did (barely) fail, it is clear that he was not doing anything to get a playing advantage by virtue of using a VOC glue.  Further, his racket quite clearly did not emit enough VOCs to bring harm to any players in the area.  Heck, the umpire checking his racket put it up to his nose and sniffed.

And yes, there is a "barely failed" just as there is a "barely lost" for a match.
 

Look, Who are you trying to fool - the enez machine does not have a scale. Its ON or OFF - GOOD or BAD. See the Difference - Your mates Racket Failed. That's it end of Story.

Now if he had followed the Correct procedure as, has been stated in many publications on the ITTF website, and Forums like these.

1. Air New Rubbers, as they might have manufacturing fumes still present.
2. Use VOC free glue to apply your rubber or VOC Free Application Sheets.

His Racket would not have failed. - See its easy.

Now to the members that still thing its OK to boost because they are only modifying the Sponge. It would be impossible for the Booster not to travel to the rubber - and affect its playing characteristics. Lets face it, its applied to the sponge and 15mins later it has disappeared, just like it soaks into the sponge, it will travel to the Rubber Topsheet.
And just like the effect diminishes after a few Weeks - where does this product go - some must go through the topsheet and affect it.

SEE - every statement we make, you have an answer for - yet even those that have Physics Degree's Cant see the Obvious.

The Enez machine was accurate, but due to people putting jars of Speedglue in it, and other substances, that were well over the threshold of the machine - It was Corrupted - with no way of recalibrating it. Its not the Machines fault, but the users fault. A machine that fails a genuine New aired rubber thats been glued onto a blade with Genuine VOC free glues should be Returned back to the manufacturer and no longer used. From what I have seen, to many examples of these faulty machine have been brought into discussions on this and many other Forums. Its a bit like the Sardine that was caught by the little boy fisherman - but ends up being a 20 pound Tuna by the time the story gets to the PUB.

One last Point to those that complain about Brand New Rubbers failing out of the Packet. Some manufacturers try to glue the Topsheet to the sponge with products that are Substantially lower than the threshold set by the ITTF. These Generally have the BIOS logo on them.

I can tell you that my Racket has never failed, and neither have many rackets that I have made up for my Team mates. Yet one racket that had been SpeedGlued - And the player was Honest before the Test, FAILED.

I have people that still request Speedglue, and I tell them that its Illegal, but they don't care. Some say they only play at home so it doesn't matter. To me that's OK, as I will never be competing against these players, but if they ever did, with a speedglued racket, they would be cheating.

Personally I feel Sorry for Adham, he has had to answer the same Question many times over, and has done so in an excellant manner.

Lets not talk about the Past, as we cannot change it. Lets talk about the Future.

Lets not talk about speedglue & boosters - they are the past - Lets talk about ways to increase the Spin, Power & feeling, whilst complying with the current rules and Regulations. And if they change, we must change with them.


THANK YOU ! I could not have replied better myself.
Adham Sharara
ITTF
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phantagarow View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Quote phantagarow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/28/2009 at 10:15pm
I never glued myself so I have no idea what it is like. However after all these heated discussions that seem to be prolonged indefinitely and the ubiquity of fussing about the ban, it must be something really amazing. Thank you guys, now there is something itching in me...Wink
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