Schlager playing in a garage

Baal, I'm sure she was impressive, but I'm also sure she have been working with her pips, learning how to cover up for some of the weaknesses that pips have and this is my point, to get to the next level with pips, you need to work as hard as you would with inverted. Unfortunately, since it is so easy for beginners to glue on a sheet of LP and improve their level at once, they seem to think this applies to all levels, which it certainly don't.

Speedplay wrote: How ever, once you are passed the beginners level, you will figure out how to play against this kind of players and unless they develop their game, you will crush them with ease.

I have traveled a lot in China (my wife is Chinese and a pretty good player) and I have encountered there some of the strangest and most effective LP players imaginable, almost all penholders, and what they all have in common in addition to the usual things you expect is very effective attacks with the LP.  Believe me, you are going to have to be very far past the beginners level to deal with these players, who were amateur players but who would have ratings in the 2400 range in the US.  One I remember with particular horror was a female penholder, former Sichuan province team player probably about 30 years old, she would mostly use the LP during the point, but had an inverted RPB that was really spinny.  She could twiddle on serves, subtly hiding the point of contact (illegally but I was too polite to mention this) so that you couldn't see until the last possible instant which side she was serving with.  I have never seen any other penholder do that.    But mostly she used the LP side and would block and push very very very low and pretty much wherever she wanted and as soon as you hit the ball a little too high anywhere in the middle 65% of the table, THWACK!!!!  Or she would punch the thing with her backhand and it would corkscrew in some strange trajectory.  Then you would have to deal with this diabolical weird flat hit directed someplace uncomfortable. Her returns of serve were really really good.  Another thing she could do was move you from side to side relentlessly and by side I mean a few cm from the white line every time.  I am a decent enough player, but I had no answer to any of this.  When I could get hold of one to loop I won the point.  Hardly ever was allowed to do any of the things I do well.  And yet, someone like Schlager would make her look as bad as he did Pushblocker, which is NOT meant to be a swipe at Pushblocker.

icontek wrote: bravefest wrote: If you think it's fair to let obviously cheap equipment (and it may not be 'cheap' at world class level, but it sure is cheap at lower levels) win matches for you, then you don't have a very developed sense of fairness.   Cheap? Fairness?   This is someone has never read Sirlin's playing to win, otherwise he would understand and recognize scrub mentality.   .... And in closing, I would still rather play against someone with traditional frictionless pips than the popular "treated" varieties (the ones with spinless tops, and sticky pip sides) because at my level, true frictionless behavior is far more comprehensible; I acknowledge that I lack the technique and the understanding to deal with the variability of treated pips. Re-Legalizing them would present a great stepping stone to further my understanding of the game.

Excellent post, my friend. I see your TT journey will be very fun. I hope you keep enjoying TT till the day you can't move your arms/legs

People around you are lucky to have such an open-minded/willing-to-learn-attitude player to play with. Thumbs up

Thanks theman, I am really bothered lately that the sport is losing its diversity and is gradually being eroded down skillwise. I know there is a fine balance, the ITTF wish the game to be seen as more of an athletic spectacle for sure to take the game at the top level  further away from the 'basement' culture, but it is a very fine line, and banning a layer of the gap (spinless pips) has done nothing exept narrow down the diversity of styles further. Not many or none world top 100 men playing with spinless, so no real threat to the top players, even if there was, the ITTF should put more trust in the ability for players/coaches to accept a challenge and sort any innovations of equipment out themselves, they always have done in the past, its what makes the sport more interesting. When LP's first appeared in the 1970's many players struggled to read them, but the first European to work them out was Stellan Bengtson, and what that shouts out loudly to me, it that he was a master of TT craft and ability, I want more Stellan Bengtsons who stick out, not more clones who do not.

The hard bat players of the early 1960's said the same things about Reverse sponge loopers, ie it was all about the equipment rather than the skill of the player, the ironic thing is, it is the heavy use of spin by modern players that has made spinless pips successful, all of the spin in a rally originating from reverse rubber, the reason that lower level player are not successful against this style is because they really don't understand what is going on and cannot relate what comes back to them off the LP's to their previous shot.

I've tested out long pips.  They are easy to use.  I win against players who are much much much better than I am when I use long pips.

that is highly debatable. How high in rating are the players? because playing long pips at a high level is extremely difficult, given the top players knowing how to play against them.

bogeyhunter can vouch for that.

to say they are easy to use is ignorant because of the disillusional wins you seem to easily attain.  its a lot harder to train for long pips due to its predictability and players taking advantage of it.

have you seen the video chen longcan vs boggan?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jyfC6EaBfA

Just because the style of play doesnt display exuberant footwork of a ryu seung min or a ma long doesnt mean its cheap or lacks the fundamentals.

if a number of long pip users choose to play pips for short term gain, its your job to beat them silly and tell them so.

bravefest wrote: I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper.As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals.I've seen it happen over and over:� a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.

Don't be a hater, be a player!

bravefest wrote: I'm not impressed by anyone attaining a high rating using long pips unless you're a heavy chopper. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who's sitting there blocking with long pips is using equipment to make up for a lack of fundamentals. I've seen it happen over and over:  a player with good footwork and swings loses to a fatass who stands there and lets his junk rubber do all the work for him.

Despite their lack of fundamentals, there is no need to insult anyone. There is a chinese saying that goes something along the lines of...if you lose to someone because of lack of skills, then don't complain". And get this...there are no shortcuts in life.

If you, or me, or anyone loses consistently to a particular style..then it just means that we are slow at adapting, and quick adaptation/adjustment is an essential skill in table tennis...if u don't have that skill and they beat you fair and square then don't whine about it. Learn their style and overcome it...if u can't then u know that you are limited in skills (and this alone should motivate u to improve your table tennis basics)

icontek wrote: Oliver, when larry beats you does he also mix in dead balls or are they all loaded with his trademark "heavyspin"?   The other two questions I have for you:   Do SP thin sponge push/pickhitters give you trouble?   Also, do tacky rubber players ever feed you knuckleballs?   I ask because I have recently experimented with "killing topspin" and scrubbing it off my opponents openers...it's not useful right now except for drop shots against spinny lobs.   One of the advantages (again this is theory, so bear with me) of tacky rubber is that creating low spin balls is easier than with traditional euro or japanese rubber (because, with good timing, it seems like you can use the topsheet to re-grab and neutralize the spin the ball after the sponge has released it).   And if you do manage to develop a twiddling backhand attack to end points....   LORD HELP US :)

my dorm friends all play very much like him, of course they are all much worse and have bad equipment. its good to know that if i lose to them that that particular style is actually a viable style at our level.

That table looks as though it is worth every cent of the money.  $349.99

Oliver, when larry beats you does he also mix in dead balls or are they all loaded with his trademark "heavyspin"?

JimT wrote: 7plywood wrote: dragon kid wrote: Schlager is a former world champ, that would put him somewhere around 2700 usatt (correct me if i'm wrong).. Since Ilija Lupulesku is 2780 USATT (I just looked it up) and I can't imagine Schlager loosing a single game to him, there must be at least 200 point difference between Ilija and Werner. That would put Schlager probably above 3000 USATT level. I think only Kong Linghui and Wang Hao have USATT rating above 3000. I might be wrong. I would say Schlager is around 2900 USATT.

Kong's highest USATT rating was 2979 in 1995. The second highest was WLQ at 2927. Kim Taek Soo 2903, Ma Lin 2899, Kreanga 2971. All of these scores are however are at least 8 years old. To check the list, just go to the USATT ratings page and to to the Customizable Member Lists and select foreign.

JimT wrote: 7plywood wrote: dragon kid wrote: Schlager is a former world champ, that would put him somewhere around 2700 usatt (correct me if i'm wrong).. Since Ilija Lupulesku is 2780 USATT (I just looked it up) and I can't imagine Schlager loosing a single game to him, there must be at least 200 point difference between Ilija and Werner. That would put Schlager probably above 3000 USATT level. I think only Kong Linghui and Wang Hao have USATT rating above 3000. I might be wrong. I would say Schlager is around 2900 USATT.

I think you're right.  Boll may also have a rating >= 3000. 

When a player reaches those stratospheric levels, it's hard to gain may points.  Even 2500 level players rarely move much unless they have monstrously great or poor tournaments.  And not all players have all of their matches submitted for ratings.

silverhair wrote: Pushblocker wrote: Indeed, many players KNOW what to do against such styles but can't execute it, or don't have the patience.. I love opponents who lose their patience.. But isn't that your game?