Throw angle is a bunch of bull too

How many different rubbers have you tried on the same blade.....and how many blades have you tried with the same rubber?

you can look at it like this....the topsheet of a rubber is the main reason behind "throw angle". if a topsheet is super sensitive to spin, the ball will kick up like crazy when blocking a loop (with an open blade face perpendicular to the table). a rubber that is less sensitive to spin (we'll say anti-spin so that you can see the other extreme) will have no reaction to spin...so the ball will just bounce back forward with little height.

hope that helps.

Its all a property of topsheet, sponge, and blade flexibility and rigidity.

All topsheets are different and so is the pimples pattern in them. Depending on how the pimple bend into the sponge will yield to different results.

I would suggest contacting table tennis engineers for details. I am sure if you call up Yasaka or Stiga, they would provide you the answers.

This video should prove it for you.  Start at 2:20.  They are comparing old vs. new Outlaw, but as you can see the trajectory is somewhat different even between old and new.

Zero user variables in play, since blade is held by fixed clamp, with robot shooting the balls at fixed speed/spin.

pnachtwey wrote: Not everyone is a looper. Is this a good way to rate a blade or rubber? A lot depends on the play. I am suggest that the paddle be place stationary on a table and the ball drop at the paddle with various spins and angles so only the blade and the rubber are tested, not the player.

It's just one parameter of a rubber, and it may not be useful to everyone.

pnachtwey wrote: If you loop the same ball (with backspin or topspin) and have one bat with Bryce and one with T05, you'll see how much higher the T05 comes off. But this is player dependent and subjective.

Yes it is, but we're not looking a number here, we're just looking whether it's high, medium or low. This can usually be judged well enough by players that have used a fwe rubbers.

pnachtwey wrote: The difference is the throw of the rubber.As an engineer, you should look at the data (evidence) first, That is what I am looking for. So far I have only seen opinions. I know that I can do meaningful tests by dropping balls on paddles with controlled spins and at different angles of incidence.   Show me where this has been done and I will believe.

I know it's real from personal experience, but accurate throw numbers are not useful, as they vary too much between styles/strokes. Usually you only want to know if it's high or low compared to other rubbers.
I'm sure a setup could be used to prove the concept, but it will be quite complex, and you'd have to ask yourself if it's worth the effort...

pnachtwey wrote: haggisv wrote: The throw angle is the angle the ball comes off with you loop it. What about when a playing against a chopper? My T05's throw is mighty low and it takes great care to keep the ball from going straight down into the table or into the net. It is obvious that the opponent has a great effect on the 'throw'.

The point is that it will still be higher throw than if you looped the same ball with a low-throw rubber. This is what makes it high... it's a relative term compared to other rubbers.

posted by pnachtwey What about when a playing against a chopper? My T05's throw is mighty low and it takes great care to keep the ball from going straight down into the table or into the net. It is obvious that the opponent has a great effect on the 'throw'.


This is not the throw that comes in to play, the throw comes in to play when you actually manage to loop the ball. You might still hit the net, but the arc of the ball is high with T 05, while it is low with Mark V m2. This is not because of the player, cause I've used them both and when I switched to T 05, I had to change my bat angle for my loops, cause they where way to high.

Has Sid returned?

pnachtwey wrote: I am a relative TT rookie but I am an experience engineer and I think the talk about throw angle is BS.

 I'm a relative Engineering Rookie, but I think that Newtons law of Motion is Bullsh*t...........Imagine if I wrote that on an Engineering forum, and you can get an Idea of how you look on a TT forum, silly

pushchop wrote: This video should prove it for you.  Start at 2:20.  They are comparing old vs. new Outlaw, but as you can see the trajectory is somewhat different even between old and new. Zero user variables in play, since blade is held by fixed clamp, with robot shooting the balls at fixed speed/spin.

I think this video's interesting, but factors such as the rebound effect tested in the beginning are hard to consider, especially because blade angle factor plays such a large roll in determining the rebound height, length.

On the same topic, it is clearly visible in the video that the ball would hit the bat angled in the vise and slightly move, thus completely changing the results drastically of even the trial being tested.............

Throw angle has a lot to do with the pips from my experience.  Tall pips can get underneath the ball and push it up.  Flat or big pips don't do that and tend to send the ball in a straighter path.  I first figured this out when comparing the 729 sst (tall) pip with the stranger shaped ritc 2000.

pnachtwey wrote:    I am suggest that the paddle be place stationary on a table and the ball drop at the paddle with various spins and angles so only the blade and the rubber are tested, not the player.

Wrong experiment design:
- it has to be vertical to account for the gravitational force field

but even then drop a forward or backward spinning ball at an angle on glass and then on rubber. if the throw angle differs.. that means it is friction dependent... and you can infer why rubbers with diff friction (and other factors too) differ in throw angle

pnachtwey wrote: But this is player dependent and subjective.

right. player dependent means not their 'face'... but the pressure they exert or angle the contact or speed of contact etc... which are all physical variables.

pnachtwey wrote: That is what I am looking for. So far I have only seen opinions. I know that I can do meaningful tests by dropping balls on paddles with controlled spins and at different angles of incidence.   Show me where this has been done and I will believe.

huh! lets see... people in forum who are dying to make pnatchweywawawawhosoever believe.. please create a fund and contribute. Or else you know what will happen?

HE WONT BELLLLIIIIIEEEEEVE!!

ooops. sorry i wish i was one ;)

pnachtwey wrote: What about when a playing against a chopper? My T05's throw is mighty low and it takes great care to keep the ball from going straight down into the table or into the net. It is obvious that the opponent has a great effect on the 'throw'.

You are right! ... by throw we usually mean throw on a topspin ball. If you consider backspin... it will be a mirror ...so T-05 will have lower throw than say Super Anti.

nathanso wrote: Baal wrote: Blades have different throw angles too. Absolutely. As a blade tester for BBC I can verify this.

I don't doubt you, can you explain this one as there is no  contact with the actual ball and blade. I do however agree that different rubbers have different throw angles. I know that blades of different hardness will affect the bounce but the actual throw...???

I would agree that the term "throw angle" is the first thing I see taken out of context and is usually more subjective than a scientific mark on how something is playing for somebody. Due to the fact that no two wooden blades are the same and no two people play the same throw angles tend to vary... but both blades and rubbers do have throw angles and those angles combined do create a throw when looping or spin is involved. The problem when using this as a measure for how either a blade or a rubber is supposed to play or behave is that there is too much variance as described above to take this as anything but subjective feel for how this or that is playing. A peice of 1.9mm tenergry on a stiff blade will have a much lower throw than a 2.1mm sheet on a OFF- blade while looping but at low speeds the throw will be more similar due to the fact that the ball is interacting less with the wood / sponge and more with just the topsheet.

^

Above wall of text is too long.

Did not listen!

I would argue that very few things in all of sports are as precise as the feel that a 2000+ level table tennis player has for the way a blade or blade-rubber combination plays.  It is the same precision that professional musicians have for their technology and it is just as mysterious to rookies.  Throw angle is a pretty good term and other people at similar playing levels and with similar styles of play -- that is to say, not TT rookies -- know what is meant.

As for believing what the manufacturers say about their products, well anyone who is not a TT rookie knows that most companies either tell you nothing useful about how it plays, or they will simply claim that product X has more speed, more spin, AND YET more control too!!!  The only way to know is to try something, or to talk to people who you know have the experience and playing level to be a reliable source.  One thing is for sure, most of the time too frequent equipment changes will retard your development as a player.