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The pro's equipment -discussion and questions! |
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wturber 
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Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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 Posted: 09/22/2015 at 10:39pm |
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No. My mind is fine. I'm not seeing any real counter-argument from yours. If you've got one, have at it. The notion in the discussion with Sharara was not that edge tape was an additive. The notion is that edge tape - like the hat - is not specified as a component and hence is not legally allowed. It isn't part of the handle. It isn't an approved blade covering. And if you consider it part of the blade, then the blade no longer meets the continuity requirements. Therefore, isn't a component of a legal racket. As I recall, Sharara was using this argument that a thing not specifically included is excluded as the explanation for the stance against additives to sponge. So I applied his logic to edge tape and once trapped in the corner of having to be consistent, he conceded that edge tape is also illegal. It was either that or back off of the notion that sponge additives were illegal. This is the logic used regularly for prohibiting certain kinds of clothing in table tennis matches. There have been blades made that employed a thin veneer of wood bonded to the perimeter of the blade. But that was a design that did not persist. I haven't seen it for years now. It is actually a good idea for extending blade life. Would it matter in any practical way to give a player an advantage? No. But it isn't technically legal so you aren't going to see a lot of it. What about extra thick edge tape? Is that legal? What if I put an even thicker 5mm thick strip of plastic around the perimeter of the blade? Is that any less legal than edge tape. If so, why so? What if I go to 10mm? What are the rules that govern this? Yes. This is all picayune trivia. That's why I said "dances on the edge" in my post. Technically there is no justification for allowing it per the rules. But practically and traditionally, it presents no problem and has always been allowed. But that doesn't mean other similar things would also be allowed my response to the question of "why not run the band all the way around the edge of the blade?" |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Baal
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Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Posted: 09/22/2015 at 10:42pm |
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My counter argument is the obvious intent of the rule and the way it is implemented. Nobody ever intended edge tape to be illegal. And in practice nobody has ever called it illegal, except at the Olympics when due to IOC rules they made people take off the product names and use dark colored edge tape. (That was an IOC thing, not ITTF). Nobody before this has ever suggested that edge tape somehow skirts the rules or "dances around the edge", whatever that is supposed to mean. You can argue it the other way until you are blue in the face but nobody can take this seriously.
I'm not going to get into a flame war with you on this because it is like arguing about the relative merits of blue unicorns vs red ones. It is utterly pointless. |
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the_theologian
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Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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Posted: 09/22/2015 at 11:52pm |
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I can see Sharara being cornered and not admitting the absurdity of his rules, though.
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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Baal
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 12:26am |
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Sharara was always pretty slippery and would say one thing one later something else on something that ITTF had one. I don't think he ever said anything about edge tape but if he did I am sure whatever he said was probably bad for the sport.
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wturber
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Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 2:55am |
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That's why I said that it dances on the edge. By the letter it isn't legal - yet it is super unlikely that anybody would ever enforce the rule that literally given the tradition and history. As for flame wars, I suggest you review your own posts, language and approach. All I've done is explain my post to you. You are the one using inflammatory language. There's no flaming from me. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 7:35am |
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Jay, over the years of reading your posts I know once you have staked out a position you will defend it forever so please feel very welcome to have the last word on this, since I'm not going to say anything more after this about edge tape, even though I have sat here and read Technical Leaflet T4 several times with as open a mind as possible looking for something that could possibly interpreted like that. Feel free to trash this but I think I need to try to make a philosophical point here.
In short, here is my counter-argument (which you asked for, but I was so stupefied by the idea that edge tape is marginally illegal that I couldn't formulate right away): You are suggesting that "by the letter" edge tape is an additive and thus illegal or nearly so -- you say it "dances on the edge" it means you really actually think it violates the rules even though nobody calls it -- sort of like serves. If you didn't think that, you wouldn't have written it. I've never heard anyone else ever hint at anything close to that about edge tape, not even the most passionate defenders of the ITTF and all they have done, but you seem certain of it. We need to keep this in mind the next time you write something about someone's serve -- or anything else -- by the letter. I will make a little analogy here. ITTF technical leaflet T4 says the following: (The Law 2.4.1) is intended to apply to the blade and the handle taken as a whole. Flexibility is not permitted in a racket except in the racket covering. [emphasis added]
OK, by the "letter of the law" my Viscaria, while stiffer than a typical all wood, still has discernible flex when it hits the ball. It is not rigid like a piece of lead. I guess my blade and probably yours too "dances around the edge" because after all, the rule says "flexibility is not permitted". Crazy right? Well yes. Interpreting the rule that way would be crazy. But that is what all the letters in a row add up to. The letter of the law as you say. Why am I commenting about this seemingly trivial issue at some length (and I realize that you called it trivial)? Because you often do this -- you take the most rigid possible interpretation of ITTF rules of table tennis and then frequently argue that ITTF fails to enforce them. And I am simply stating that this is where that leads you. There is the issue of intent. It comes up a lot. In serves, it is clear to me that they did not intend the hidden serve rules to radically change table tennis. It was supposed to be a tweak, not a sea change. (My evidence for this is in fact the way ITTF officials actually call matches in the most important events in the sport, and a comparison of serves of players who spanned the era--Waldner, Samsonov, WLQ, etc. in 1999 vs. now for example). In blades, they clearly don't care about the edge (so Tibhar still sells their Sensitec blades) and they do care about the surface (so Butterfly had to stop selling their newer Kreanga blade some years back). When you say there is no justification for allowing it, I counter that there is no justification for banning it. The rule is entirely silent on it. And we are left with intent. And if they had intended to ban edge tape they would have told us by now. More generally, if something has been going on for years at WTTC, World Cup, various continental championships, even super leagues of various sorts, that reflects the intent unless some other directive comes down to clarify things. I know this is an equipment thread, but I am making a more general philosophical point that I feel I have the right to make. I feel pretty comfortable with my language and approach. |
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looneylooper
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Joined: 04/30/2014 Location: CA Status: Offline Points: 97 |
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 1:52pm |
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I like blue unicorns!
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Baal
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 2:39pm |
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Yes but what rubber are they using? |
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Ray
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Joined: 02/28/2012 Location: Online Status: Offline Points: 1845 |
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 3:05pm |
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Nimatsu Pegasus both sides. |
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berndt_mann
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Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 4:19pm |
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Let's not dance around the subject: is it right or wrong
To use edge tape when you're playing pong? (unrepentant user of Dr. Neubauer 6 mm. edge tape) You're gonna have to pry my Dr. Neubauer from my Master Craftsman's flat, rigid, continuous European birch 5-ply edge. I know my Constitutional rights, and there's nothing in the Constitution that says I can't use edge tape. Gonna use edge tape till the day I die; Just not edge tape by Butterfly. I too like blue unicorns. The handsomest are the green ones though. Edited by berndt_mann - 09/23/2015 at 4:28pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 4:28pm |
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If using edge tape is wrong, I don't want to be right.
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berndt_mann
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Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Posted: 09/23/2015 at 4:56pm |
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Retired ITTF President Sharara
Used to use edge tape on his Viscaria. When asked Was the wrong? He replied This is pong, If you don't, ding your blade, you'll be sorry-a. Edited by berndt_mann - 09/23/2015 at 4:59pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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benfb
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Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Posted: 09/27/2015 at 7:30pm |
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Anyone know the equipment of Stefan Fegerl? I tried searching this thread for his name and came up blank.
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benfb
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Posted: 09/27/2015 at 7:35pm |
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In making my previous post about Stefan Fegerl, I ran into the discussion about edge tape, which i had previously missed. So in place of edge tape, what about just applying a thick layer of glue? I've seen choppers do that and presumably, glue is permitted by the rules.
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Baal
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Posted: 09/27/2015 at 8:53pm |
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ben, just use tape. Not even Jay thinks tape is in practice illegal, he says "it presents no problem and has always been allowed". He also used the word "picayune".
That's it in a nutshell. (And if tape is illegal, than the glue is too since it is an additive -- or something. I could never follow why tape was supposed to be a problem but that was the word Jay used). |
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benfb
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Posted: 09/27/2015 at 9:57pm |
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I wasn't worried about what I can use. I was just saying that glue should be exempt from Jay's argument about additives since it's already allowed to adhere rubber. Or you could take Jay's argument one step further and claim that the glue really is an additive, in which case you wouldn't be allowed to use glue to adhere the rubber any more. There's a funny thought. |
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Ray
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Joined: 02/28/2012 Location: Online Status: Offline Points: 1845 |
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Posted: 09/28/2015 at 3:19am |
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http://bit.ly/1RaNvep |
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the_theologian
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Joined: 01/11/2009 Location: U.S. Status: Offline Points: 3895 |
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Posted: 09/28/2015 at 8:31pm |
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Appelgren Allplay ST / Vega Europe max
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Inkognito
Super Member 
Joined: 08/10/2015 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 145 |
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 8:54am |
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Can anyone spot which Bluefire Baum plays with (ETTC). I am 100% certain he switched from Tenergy
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3 BTY Jun Mizutani ST SZLC
FH/BH Butterfly Dignics 64 max Buy some Butterfly or Stiga equipment?!?! PM me!!! EJ since 1993 |
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benfb
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Joined: 10/10/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2709 |
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 1:56pm |
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Are you able to tell anything significant from that photo? i looked at the link, then enlarged the paddle like you did here, and still couldn't tell much. The paddle is clearly a Butterfly from the Timo Boll line, but I don't know which. And the rubber i can't tell at all. Maybe someone has access to a higher resolution version of this photo? By the way, Fegerl has done incredibly well at the ETTC this year.
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Argothman
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Joined: 12/20/2013 Location: The stars Status: Offline Points: 551 |
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 2:16pm |
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I'm pretty sure that's a Timo Boll ALC.
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chroot
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Joined: 07/17/2013 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 949 |
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 2:20pm |
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The blade is TB ALC. No way to tell what rubbers he's using.
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benfb
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 2:24pm |
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Thanks on the paddle. I've always loved the TB ALC, even though it hasn't been my main paddle the last few years.
I wonder if he's sponsored by Butterfly? I haven't seen him advertised that way.
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chroot
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 2:32pm |
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Used to be sponsored by joola a couple of years ago. Don't know his current status.
http://www.joola.us/2009/07/stefan-fegerl/ |
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Da Baobei
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 2:47pm |
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Fegerl uses Boll ALC with T05
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benfb
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 3:00pm |
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Thanks
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typn
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Posted: 09/29/2015 at 9:06pm |
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it seems that ZJK swich to ten 05 on BH, no?
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Blade -- DHS Long V
FH -- DHS H3 BH -- DHS TG3-60 |
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kitkit890
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Joined: 06/13/2015 Location: Philippines Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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Posted: 09/30/2015 at 10:31am |
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Koki Niwa's and Fan Zhendong's equipment on the ATTC.
What blades were they using? :/
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Blade: 729 Bomb (penhold)
FH: DHS Hurricane III Neo BH: 729 Focus III Snipe |
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DreiZ
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Joined: 06/01/2009 Location: New York, US Status: Offline Points: 2576 |
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Posted: 09/30/2015 at 10:53am |
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The usual Viscaria and Infinity VPS V? Although the lens on the Stiga blade looks different from the one on Stiga website. Also the Infinity and VPS V marks are missing on the face, so this very well can be the Viscaria + Stiga handle. Edited by DreiZ - 09/30/2015 at 10:56am |
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Main:
Ovtcharov Innerforce ALC 85g FH/BH: Glayzer 09C 2.1mm Chopper: Stratus Power Defense 85g FH: Hybrid K3 max BH: Grass D.TecS 0.9mm USATT: 1725 |
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speaquinox
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Joined: 03/19/2007 Location: Turkey Status: Offline Points: 1742 |
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Posted: 10/03/2015 at 1:35pm |
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Innerforce ALC, Glayzer / Rozena
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Baal wrote: