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    Posted: 08/17/2010 at 4:28am
well lower back pain from training camp. Only half way through it is the real shame. Quick question, should i be arching my back down or keeping my back straight?

ugh, on a side note ive been destroying footwork training non stop to the point where there are burning blisters on my toes and bottom of my foot started to bleed. Is that a good thing? -.-


Edited by davidzou - 08/17/2010 at 4:32am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ohhgourami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 4:42am
Your back should be relatively straight.

As for your feet, they will eventually get used to it.  Could be a recurring issues if your shoes are too loose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 6:29am
Are you sure you go to the TT training camp Smile?  Sore back muscle is OK, if you are a bit out of shape before camp.  However, Lower back pain is different, it could be caused by reaching, twisting, moving at wrong position.  Talk to the instructors about the problem, and see if they can keep an eye on you to see if you are doing something wrong.  Good luck, and have fun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidzou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 7:10am
not sure how to reach with my lower back when i can do so with my arm... i think. But something i just questioned was whether i should try locking my hips to my lower back and moving it in unison. I seem to move my body a little quicker than the lower back.

And yes...if i am invited to a weekly event of special training with a bunch of provincial team members. I am pretty sure that it is a training camp....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fruit loop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 7:24am
Originally posted by davidzou davidzou wrote:

well lower back pain from training camp. Only half way through it is the real shame. Quick question, should i be arching my back down or keeping my back straight?

ugh, on a side note ive been destroying footwork training non stop to the point where there are burning blisters on my toes and bottom of my foot started to bleed. Is that a good thing? -.-


Bleeding feet from blisters is good for the soul and builds character. Keep smashing the footwork training.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dimikkio Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 9:02am
Originally posted by davidzou davidzou wrote:

well lower back pain from training camp. Only half way through it is the real shame.
Well, it's a pity, you've got my sympathy. I also have back problems due to intensive training. What helps me is a special simple set of exercises by Paul Bragg. Here's a short video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HRZqbZei1E
Unfortunately, I speak Russian there, it was intended for some local guys. BTW, they said it helped. Anyway, if you like the stuff and have any questions, don't hesitate to ask either here or to PM. I wish you and everybody good health and iron body. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 10:26am
Go swimming, it will relax you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lild100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 10:43am
Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Go swimming, it will relax you.

i still have my problem baal :((( 

swimming,,, what techniques in swimming?? breast stroke is bad for lower back i heard

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smiths9312 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 11:14am
An easy stretch for lower back issues:  Lay flat on your back.  Feet are flat on the ground and knees are up.  Now raise your hips off the ground and hold it for ten or 15 seconds.  Hips back down and relax.  3-5 minutes in the morning, before playing , after playing, and before bed. 
 
No pain relievers before training or playing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidzou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 1:47pm
does swimming still help if im a terrible TERRIBLE swimmer? seems to exhaust me really bad =.=
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lild100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 3:31pm
Originally posted by smiths9312 smiths9312 wrote:

An easy stretch for lower back issues:  Lay flat on your back.  Feet are flat on the ground and knees are up.  Now raise your hips off the ground and hold it for ten or 15 seconds.  Hips back down and relax.  3-5 minutes in the morning, before playing , after playing, and before bed. 
 
No pain relievers before training or playing. 

i do this one all the time, but i dont get any relief... how is it meant to relief your lower back pain ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 4:25pm
if you have back pain then you just do stretching. reach ur sides and do hip elliptical movements. if you pulled your back like i did 3 weeks ago, you're going to have to just stop training until it feels better.

as for the feet, you shouldn't get blisters unless the shoes are too loose. if all else fails, then tape those precious feet of yours and keep going! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quakerroatmeal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 5:22pm
I had minor blister on my feet as well, it got so sore to the point where I couldn't feel my feet either. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sunny Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 6:03pm

I have had back problem for more than a year till I found ways to control it. Few things I do:

1. Do stomach exercises, you upper and lower body is supported by your back and stomach muscles. When I do stomach exercises to strenghten my stomach muscles, it helps my back from straining.
I find simple exercise like with a ab roller or any other exercise with exercise machine very useful. Situps could strain back as it does exercise both back and stomach and you need to focus on stomach muscles only.
2. Secondly, I use ice pack and infrared massager to relax and release the pain.
3. You get over the counter Back and Muscle medicine like from Shoppers Drugmart. Ask the pharmecist. What you need is pain killer with muscle relaxer. This will help release pain, relax muscle to heal faster
 
Regarding feet, you need better shoes. the shoes you are wearing do not have enough padding and support at the right place. I love Donic Waldner Flex shoes they fit like a glove, have good support and padding and do not skid. Only they do not last long. I am sure folks can recommend better shoes.
 
Rest your feet in warm water in the night. You can also get Epsom salt and put it in warm water and put your feet in it. Epsom salt helps relieve pain. You can get Epsom salt from Shoppers Drugmart, Bulk Barn, etc.


Edited by sunny - 08/17/2010 at 6:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 6:08pm
aleve is a great cheap pain killer that helps with muscle relaxation. that and icy hot =D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 6:14pm
Aleve is great but you want to fix the underlying problem, right? Ask around for a good, well-recommended chiropractor, that can really help...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tpgh2k Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 6:20pm
well if you're in a training camp with provincial players, then the coaches and trainers should be able to help you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 11:50pm
Sometimes the only thing you can do is rest it a bit until it gets better.  Sucks if you are having a unique opportunity to train, though.  If you are getting any pain running down your leg or any numbness stop at once.

Contrary to common wisdom, I would recommend not trying to stretch before you play.  Start to play, SLOWLY, until you are sweating, then do some light stretching, then play some more.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sahiggs100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/17/2010 at 11:56pm
Are you sure the back pain is from playing or is it a regular thing other times too?  I know I have lower back pain because of pinching of nerves which is just the structure of my back that is hereditary from my dad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidzou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2010 at 12:05am
lol if i claim i have back pain to my coaches theyre gonna kick my arse straight out until im good. Yea the stretching is doing quite the wonders. I got recommended these bath bomb thingies from my buddies at camp and its been helping my muscles relax quite well.

And my feet....well they feel overpowered lately, guess thats a good thing in the end.

edit:
never had this problem before, dont see why i got it now. Must be my lack of skill to compete with our chinese imports.....


Edited by davidzou - 08/18/2010 at 12:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote firetack Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2010 at 3:11am
Originally posted by lild100 lild100 wrote:

Originally posted by Baal Baal wrote:

Go swimming, it will relax you.

i still have my problem baal :((( 

swimming,,, what techniques in swimming?? breast stroke is bad for lower back i heard

Dan
they recommend backstroke,crawl making sure you pivot the torso side to side.
they say if you do breaststroke with the head too upright out of the water it could do more harm than good.,when i do breaststroke i make sure my head /shoulders are as low as possible in the water and dip slightly under the surface between every stroke it is important that the legs do most of the work,this has done wonders for my back(very relaxed feel after swim),from being immobilised in June i am playing again now almost back to normal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smiths9312 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2010 at 10:31am
It was recommended by my doctor when I hurt my back along with some other stretches.  I also get relief at the gym by going to the gym and letting my feet dangle on the ab rack and hot tub.   
 
If you aren't getting relief, you may want to check with a doctor, chiropracter, or physical therapist.   If you have sciatica issues your stretches would be different.  I hesitate to give suggestions because some can do more harm than good if done incorrectly.  Like someone else said, right now they don't recommend big stretches before strenuous activity, ten years ago, they would.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote figgie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2010 at 3:53pm
Hmmm
 
lower back issue usually caused by an IMBALANCE in the back muscle being stronger than the abdomincal and obliques.
 
Of course doing strength excersises when your back hurts is tough so you must do stretching and start light weight.
 
I suffered from a compressed S3,S4,S5,L1,L2 about 9 years ago. Lots of time and strength training later. Never suffered from back pains ever again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2010 at 10:41pm
I think I did a post on this awhile back, but it might have been on OOAK forum.

There are a lot of reasons for back pain.  One that needs to be taken seriously is the possibility of a small tear in the outer layer of the disk in the back.  This causes serious local inflammation, and sensory nerves in the area become very active, giving rise to a reflex that causes back muscles to tighten up.  Along with this comes pretty significant pain that is throbbing, variable in severity, and very hard to localize.  This is a protective reflex and it works to keep you from increasing the tear.  The spinal disks in the back and neck have an outer capsule and an inner layer.  If the outer capsule is torn and there is a sudden extreme movement, the inner gelatinous material can be squeezed out and can then begin to impinge on the spinal nerve roots as they exit through the small holes in the spine.  This is pretty much a disaster, as the resulting inflammation, now much more severe, will (1) cause inflammation in the nerve roots themselves, nerve dysfunction, extreme pain running down your buttocks and legs, possibly all the way down to your toes, along with muscle weakness, numbness etc.  This pain is called radiculopathy, it is excruciating in the extreme.  You do not want this to happen.  Surgery is a common outcome of this.  Even if it doesn't get that bad, it takes a whole lot longer to heal, now we are talking months instead of weeks, and the pain, like I said, is terrible. 

All this to say that severe back pain with unusual muscle tightness is something you need to be careful about.  Listen to your body, not your coaches.  If this is what has happened to you, and it is very common, you will not be able to get it to go away with stretching until the damage to the outer capsule of the disk heals, which could take several weeks. 

How to treat it?  Assuming you don't have a complete herniation with radiculopathy, stay active, but do not strain your back.  Play table tennis, but maybe just counters.  Or take walks, or float in the pool.  Don't play matches, move carefully.  Take ibuprophen or related drugs.  Perhaps prescription muscle relaxants at night may help you to help you sleep, not much more use than that.  A chiropractor can give some ultrasound treatments that provide temporary relieve.  Do not under any circumstance allow them to do a "spinal adjustment" while you are in this condition.  This is the best way I know to to turn a capsule tear into a complete disk herniation. A physician can also give you a prescription corticosteroid therapy known as a Medrol pack, it lasts about a week, starts with a high dose and gradually goes down.  This can speed up healing a lot, but will make you feel kind of weird.  In bad cases they may inject  a steroid straight into the disk.

One way to know if you are the kind of patient I just described is if you are having a bit of trouble walking straight, you tend to tilt a bit to one side.  That is a really good sign that you have torn a capsule, or damaged it a bit.  But it is not a necessary symptom of that.

Figgie is right about muscle imbalances being part of what caused the capsule tear in the first place.  In table tennis players I think it is also having a combination of super strong legs and not enough hamstring and hip flexibility.

Another factor is simply genetics.  Some people have unusually narrow spinal canals, or small holes (foramens) in their spine through which the roots pass, and also some literature suggests differences in hydration of the molecules in the disk itself, making it more prone to rupture.

So what to do?  Let it heal.  Don't make it worse.  And after it is healed, try to increase your flexibility.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/18/2010 at 10:46pm
One last thing, the initial insult that I am calling a capsule tear in the post above can also be a compression, but the effect is the same, inflammation of the disk and a risk of complete herniation.  Actually, in MRI images, it is possible to visualize all sorts of ways that the disk can be messed up, but it all starts with damage to the outer capsule which can heal pretty quickly (weeks) by itself if you don't make it worse in the meantime.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drclaude1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08/19/2010 at 1:35am
Aleve is great but you want to fix the underlying problem, right? Ask around for a good, well-recommended chiropractor, that can really help...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote davidmiller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2018 at 4:49am
Do not overuse your muscle and keep your spine straight when raining. Bad posture always causes back pain. Follow the instruction of an orthopedic doctor/expert.
Every back pain sufferer should follow some step exercise, back pain tools. Learn How To Find The Best Recliner for Back Pain
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2018 at 6:05pm
So very many medically qualified people on the forum!    Who could possibly have guessed?  And all of them with an amazing ability to diagnose and treat someone from a single line of text!!!!!!  "lower back pain from training camp"  Just six short words and the advice comes pouring in.  And so much of it simply contradictory.  What is the OP to do?  Should he pick one and ignore the rest?  Should he try all of them? 

Is our passion to be helpful so great that we just have to share our "expertise" even when we know absolutely nothing about the problem?  Are we so egocentric that we think we can practice medicine without any qualifications whatsoever?  Or are we so moronic that our brains stop at "Oh, I had a sore back once.  I know what to do."?

And why am I so angry about the ridiculous and potentially damaging advice given in this thread for medical malpractice?  Because I HAVE A SORE BACK AFTER PLAYING TABLE TENNIS!  And if I followed your advice, I'd be swimming, going to the gym, using aleve (whatever the hell that is), going to the chiropractor, NOT going to the chiropractor, stretching, NOT stretching, doing stomach exercises, and using an infrared massager.  And the end result of all this collective “wisdom” is that I would be crippling myself!!!  Instead, I went to see someone who is a medically qualified expert, someone who has seen hundreds and hundreds of people with back pain symptoms and who can make a professional diagnosis and suggest a single approach to the necessary treatment.  How crazy is that?

Btw, the diagnosis?  Shingles.  So much for all your advice.  The doctor did give me one other word of wisdom: he told me I would be prone to irrational anger when I’m given well-meaning advice from people who don't know what they're talking about.


Edited by Tassie52 - 04/07/2018 at 6:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2018 at 8:57pm
Actually Tassie, I am qualified to talk about this.  I have taught these aspects of spinal anatomy for years, including to first year medical students and with the clinical correlations.  While I see your larger point, a lot of what people suggested here is harmless. 

Back pain is one of the more difficult things to deal with and surprisingly poorly understood.  A minimum of 60% of cases show absolutely nothing even with the best MRI imaging, even when the pain is quite severe.  There are many theories about what is going on in these cases and almost no evidence to support any of them, but the pain is real and sometimes lasts for years.  The things that people have mostly suggested here are not likely to do the kind of crippling harm you are talking about if people are reasonably cautious about it. Cautious often means don't do any sudden strong movements, but don't just sit and vegetate either.  (Hence my advice about stretching, it very much depends on how you do it, and trying to stretch a "cold" muscle won't do you any good).  Also, is something is really hurting you, then stop doing it.  If you decide to try swimming, and it is immediately painful in any sort of alarming way, stop. Current "official" treatment guidelines recommend conservative approaches to treating back pain (another word for basically doing almost nothing, secure in the clinical experience that most of the time the problem will resolve by itself).  The current guidelines also do not recommend complete inactivity.  FYI, Aleve is the US tradename for a standard non-steroidal anti-inflammatory agent that I am sure you can buy in Tasmania under a different name.  Generic names for widely used ones here are naproxen and ibuprophen.  They can be used for a little while but know that they can tear up your stomach and it is a bad thing if people have to take them for any extended length of time. 

I still caution people about any sort of "spinal adjustment" done by a chiropractor, since if there is already trauma in spinal soft tissue, this can make it much worse.  It is the sudden tearing movement. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tassie52 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/07/2018 at 10:46pm
Baal, here's the thing: you actually know what you're talking about.  But how is anyone expected to filter out what is helpful from what is just pure nonsense?  You say, "The things that people have mostly suggested here are not likely to do the kind of crippling harm you are talking about if people are reasonably cautious about it."  Which is well and good... if people are reasonably cautious.  But wouldn't a reasonably cautious person do the sensible thing, which is to consult a medical expert rather than look for advice from a bunch of table tennis players?  I know the OP is in the middle of a training camp and is desperate to find an answer, but surely a reasonably cautious person would understand that a table tennis forum is not a source for medical knowledge.  Sure, "The things that people have mostly suggested here are not likely to do the kind of crippling harm you are talking about", but how is anyone who is not medically qualified going to know which bits of advice may make things a whole lot worse?

When it comes to matters scientific and medical, you have much, much more expertise than guys running around expounding advice about how to fix back pain, but you studied for years and have worked for years in this very area.  People who simply go "Well it worked for me" are not a reliable source for medical advice. 

Why is it that when someone's car breaks down they don't post about it here asking for advice?  Because we know we need a qualified mechanic.  Why is it if we have a medical problem we somehow believe this forum is going to fix it for us?
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