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Tennis rackets vs Table tennis rackets?

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cntcasey View Drop Down
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    Posted: 11/22/2010 at 9:22pm
I don't get it? Why do table tennis rackets cost as much if not more then tennis rackets? Does not seem to me that the manufacturing process would be much harder then a tennis racket, or is there a much bigger mark up in table tennis, cause it's not as popular of a sport?
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Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

I don't get it? Why do table tennis rackets cost as much if not more then tennis rackets? Does not seem to me that the manufacturing process would be much harder then a tennis racket, or is there a much bigger mark up in table tennis, cause it's not as popular of a sport?


You're just buying from the wrong companies.


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Anton speaks the truth of the matter....


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Oh tell me more?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote theman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2010 at 9:56pm
if its an all butterfly setup, get prepared to pay a pretty penny.

i have chinese rubbers and a donic blade, doesnt even cost one butterfly blade
i lost my racquet

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Gamblar Outlaw 2.0mm is to Gambler what __________ is to Butterfly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RJTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/22/2010 at 10:43pm
Dawei makes nice rackets that are very resonable in privce.They also make nice rubbers like the Inspirit and Inspirit Quattro $12.00 to $14.00 a sheet.
 
95% (or more) of TT is the ability of the player and not the gear. If you choose expensive setups that is your choice because their are options for less. Take a 2000+ rated player and he could still play competitive with most any bat and rubber.  


Edited by RJTT - 11/22/2010 at 10:46pm


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/23/2010 at 12:35am
Actually, making a table tennis blade is trickier since you have to get a source of quality woods of a certain type, make the plies, glues, etc. and insure quality control with a thing made of wood.  I am guessing there is still at least some hand craftsmanship involved, at least at some steps.  Tennis rackets are entirely constructed from man-made materials at this point, I suspect that reduces production costs since they can be made by some kind of entirely automated procedure.  This comparison is just for blades vs. rackets.  The other thing that I can think of is a matter of economics.  There are lots more tennis players than table tennis players in richer countries so tennis racket manufacturers make up in volume what they lose in profit per unit sold.  Of course, China accounts for a huge number of table tennis players, but the vast majority of them use inexpensive Chinese stuff made for their own market, which is partly why their stuff is cheap; the market for, say, Butterfly, Stiga, Donic et al. is primarily Japan, Korea, and the West.  Your average Chinese amateur player simply cannot afford one of these blades living on less than $1000 per month, since they cost about the same there that they do in Europe or the US (unless they are fakes). 

As for the price of rubber sheets, I have no idea what is driving that.  Marketing?  The fact that we are willing to pay it?  Collusion?  Maybe material costs have risen? 
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$1000 U.S. would make them rich in China. Most of the people I knew in China made $140 to $300 U.S. per month.

Most of the players used a blade and rubbers for years. Only the better players I saw in clubs changed rubbers very often. Smile
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Perhaps not rich, but certainly very comfortable at $1,000 per month.  That's about what my sister in law makes (which is the only reason why I threw that number out).  She lives quite nicely there on that in a city of about 1 million.  Owns a car.  Lives in a nice high-rise.  But certainly not rich.  But like Hookshot, I played table tennis with a lot of people living on a whole lot less.    
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Yes, you are right. If she owns a car, she is rich. Most have motor bikes.
 
More than once, I have seen a penhold blade that had holes worn almost all the way through the wood from the fingers. The rubber was hard but these guys were VERY hard to beat. That bat was a part of thier hand. Smile
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Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

I don't get it? Why do table tennis rackets cost as much if not more then tennis rackets? Does not seem to me that the manufacturing process would be much harder then a tennis racket, or is there a much bigger mark up in table tennis, cause it's not as popular of a sport?
 
 
 From the above I  get the impression you are questioning why a table tennis racket costs just as  much as a lawn tennis racket ,and also why there is sugh a big mark up on tt blades because in comparison to lawn tennis table tennis is not as popular.
 
Correct me if I am wrong so I can proceed.
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Whenever people ask me why Butterfly products cost so much than others, I just explained in this way.

Kia  and BMW both has 4 wheels and get you to the destination. I don't have to explain the difference.   Life is short, enjoy yourself while you physically can.  LOL
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Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


Whenever people ask me why Butterfly products cost so much than others, I just explained in this way.

Kia  and BMW both has 4 wheels and get you to the destination. I don't have to explain the difference.   Life is short, enjoy yourself while you physically can.  LOL


I realize you're a Butterfly dealer and trying to generate/sustain interest in a terribly overpriced product, but seriously...

You sound like a used car salesman. Ermm

No offense. I know we all have to eat. But c'mon. Disapprove

Butterfly products do not perform "better" in any way that is commensurate with their higher prices. This is coming from a compulsive EJ, and platoons more could certainly back me up.

Butterfly is obscenely more expensive than other companies because Butterfly has chosen to charge obscene prices. Period.


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I find razortts approach neither unethical or indefensible.
People will pay what people will pay. People will think what people will think.

What is better & commensurate is subjective.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/24/2010 at 11:55pm
Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:


Butterfly is obscenely more expensive than other companies because Butterfly has chosen to charge obscene prices. Period.


I guess I'm not done here. Butterfly is obscenely more expensive because they have garnered more
"success" than any other manufacturer. They also, arguably, deliver amongst the highest level of quality & consistency to be found in a product line. Does this justify their asking prices? It is up to each individual to "decide".

Sorry you have to indulge me.
You already know this.
LOL
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Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

I find razortts approach neither unethical or indefensible.
People will pay what people will pay. People will think what people will think.

What is better & commensurate is subjective.

Let him be friend!Ying Yang


He's welcome to do as he will, of course. But so am I.

"Better" and "commensurate" may be interpreted in various ways, but I seriously doubt they're ultimately subjective.

But you're right, people will pay what people will pay.

And people will say what people will say.

It doesn't mean I have to agree, and it doesn't mean I have to be silent when I smell what I think is a stinky sales pitch.

I'm not censoring him, nor pulling "rank" as an assistant mod. I'm just voicing my opinion about his comment as a member of a public forum. Smile

P.S. I didn't ever claim it was unethical. Just intentionally uninformative and smacking of a sales pitch, not a valuable contribution to truly understanding the OP's inquiry.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heimdallalso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 12:04am
Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:

Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

I find razortts approach neither unethical or indefensible.
People will pay what people will pay. People will think what people will think.

What is better & commensurate is subjective.

Let him be friend!Ying Yang


He's welcome to do as he will, of course. But so am I.

"Better" and "commensurate" may be interpreted in various ways, but I seriously doubt they're ultimately subjective.

But you're right, people will pay what people will pay.

And people will say what people will say.

It doesn't mean I have to agree, and it doesn't mean I have to be silent when I smell what I think is a stinky sales pitch.

I'm not censoring him, nor pulling "rank" as an assistant mod. I'm just voicing my opinion about his comment as a member of a public forum. Smile






...& so am I.

Who said you were  "censoring him, nor pulling "rank" as an assistant mod"?
Not me.

Regarding your protecting all the dolts who will purchase, or consider purchasing Butterfly products; good luck with that!LOL

You know I love you Anton.
It's all good.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 12:18am
Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:



...& so am I.

Who said you were  "censoring him, nor pulling "rank" as an assistant mod"?
Not me.

I know, you didn't say I was censoring him, etc, but the "let him be" comment implied, to me, that you were suggesting that I was oppressing him in some way. Just engaging in a little "CYA" clarification. Big smile

Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:


Regarding your protecting all the dolts who will purchase, or consider purchasing Butterfly products; good luck with that!LOL


I certainly wouldn't call them "dolts". How marketing collides with the human mind is a tricky thing. Wink And in any case, it wouldn't be the first hopeless crusade I've taken up. LOL

Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:


You know I love you Anton.
It's all good.


Never doubted it bro. But as you pointed out many moons ago, agreement is not requisite.

In fact, it's quite boring. Wink

Good evening.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote razortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 12:21am
Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:

Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

I find razortts approach neither unethical or indefensible.
People will pay what people will pay. People will think what people will think.

What is better & commensurate is subjective.

Let him be friend!Ying Yang


He's welcome to do as he will, of course. But so am I.

"Better" and "commensurate" may be interpreted in various ways, but I seriously doubt they're ultimately subjective.

But you're right, people will pay what people will pay.

And people will say what people will say.

It doesn't mean I have to agree, and it doesn't mean I have to be silent when I smell what I think is a stinky sales pitch.

I'm not censoring him, nor pulling "rank" as an assistant mod. I'm just voicing my opinion about his comment as a member of a public forum. Smile






...& so am I.

Who said you were  "censoring him, nor pulling "rank" as an assistant mod"?
Not me.

Regarding your protecting all the dolts who will purchase, or consider purchasing Butterfly products; good luck with that!LOL

You know I love you Anton.
It's all good.




The reason I picked Butterfly is that they do have the best products. They have the biggest market share in the US unless more than 50% of the TT player in US are wrong, you are right. If you don't like it, then you don't have to buy. But please don't call me a used car salesman, its very shallow and hurtful. Does driving a BMW make you a better driver ? Maybe , maybe not. Heimdallalso, I appreciate your kind words.  You Anton, when you calling me a "used car salesman", I think thats a personal attack, and I don't appreciate it.

When we put out the Tenergy05FX video review (Brian Pace), you mocked it by saying its another commercial and dissed it. And Brian Pace has to stepped up to defend his position, and he humbly said you two made up and case close. I am not sure whats wrong with you, maybe you need a hug or something. Do you know the effort and time and money we have to put in to produce the Video ? Lighting, venue fees, camera man salary, video editing equipment, etc etc, do you think those are free ?

I think I deserve an apology. What do you guys think  ?







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 12:36am
Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


The reason I picked Butterfly is that they do have the best products.


Says who?

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


They have the biggest market share in the US unless more than 50% of the TT player in US are wrong, you are right.

That they have a large market share is not necessarily evidence that they're "the best". Such a conclusion is erroneous... a fallacious appeal to the consensus.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


 If you don't like it, then you don't have to buy.


Indeed, and I don't intend to.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


 But please don't call me a used car salesman, its very shallow and hurtful.


I didn't call you a used car salesman. I said you sounded like one. Just like if I said an idea a person puts forth sounds stupid, it doesn't mean that person is stupid. I intentionally made the distinction between what you sounded like and what you are. I am almost always quite careful and intentional with my words.

Your comment was shallow, which was my point. Totally vacuous. You tried to convince someone that the table tennis product you have to sell was superior because, in some vague way, it compares to expensive imported cars Ermm. My "used car salesman" reference was specifically focused on the shallowness of your post (not you)... and that said post was possibly motivated by your position as a dealer.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


Does driving a BMW make you a better driver ? Maybe , maybe not.


Actually, I can answer that. Not. Absolutely not. Definitively and without question, not.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


Heimdallalso, I appreciate your kind words.  You Anton, when you calling me a "used car salesman", I think thats a personal attack, and I don't appreciate it.

See my above explanation. I didn't call you a used car salesman. I said your comment sounded like something a used car salesman might say. There is a difference.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


When we put out the Tenergy05FX video review (Brian Pace), you mocked it by saying its another commercial and dissed it. And Brian Pace has to stepped up to defend his position, and he humbly said you two made up and case close.

I didn't "dis" it. I gave my opinion on the matter and Pace clarified his position. My situation with Pace is entirely unrelated to you. I thought he was "shilling for the house" and it turns out I was wrong. I can admit when I'm wrong... in fact I enjoy it. It means I've learned something and it's an opportunity to cultivate humility.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


I am not sure whats wrong with you, maybe you need a hug or something.

Now that's sounding more like a personal attack. But I'm willing to ignore it. I realize you have a bigger vested interest in this minor "conflict" since you're a salesperson.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


 Do you know the effort and time and money we have to put in to produce the Video ? Lighting, venue fees, camera man salary, video editing equipment, etc etc, do you think those are free ?


I never commented on the quality of the vid, only on the alleged objectivity of the celebrity endorsement. And I was clarified on that matter.

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:


I think I deserve an apology. What do you guys think  ?


I think you're losing perspective, and I think you have an inflated sense of entitlement if you think you'll get an apology from me for stating my opinion on your video and comments. I realize you have a reputation to maintain as a dealer, and you therefore likely have a hyper-vigilance against people who would criticize anything you do... but I don't know what to tell you.

I gave my honest opinion of your comment. I will not apologize because I'm not sorry. I understand your position is difficult as a dealer, but that is the burden you chose to bear when you decided to peddle your wares and comment in a public forum. The quality of a dealer's statements are subject to the same scrutiny, criticism, and/or praise as anyone else's. If you don't want to give me a discount at your store, then I understand. Wink

Of course, if all you sell is Butterfly stuff, then chances are I won't be shopping there Smile.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote razortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 1:52am
@Anton: No worry man, I am not bias toward anybody. If you become our regular customer, you will definitely get the same discount that some of the people already enjoying. I was just ticked off when you called me use car sales person, thats all. But looks like you didn't mean it.

So, lets have a happy thanksgiving day, and forgot about this  post. We cool ?

Edited by razortt - 11/25/2010 at 2:00am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Anton Chigurh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 2:12am
Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:

@Anton: No worry man, I am not bias toward anybody. If you become our regular customer, you will definitely get the same discount that some of the people already enjoying. I was just ticked off when you called me use car sales person, thats all. But looks like you didn't mean it.

So, lets have a happy thanksgiving day, and forgot about this  post. We cool ?


We are absolutely cool, and for the record, in my mind we always were. Smile

I really want to emphasize that my issues were with the content of your post and not with the qualities of your character. You may be a great guy. Your shop may be an excellent shop. That stuff I cannot know. I just disagreed with what you said, and more importantly, with how you said it. That's all.

Good luck to you in your endeavors and I'll see you around the forum.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote razortt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 12:09pm
Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:

Originally posted by razortt razortt wrote:

@Anton: No worry man, I am not bias toward anybody. If you become our regular customer, you will definitely get the same discount that some of the people already enjoying. I was just ticked off when you called me use car sales person, thats all. But looks like you didn't mean it.

So, lets have a happy thanksgiving day, and forgot about this  post. We cool ?


We are absolutely cool, and for the record, in my mind we always were. Smile

I really want to emphasize that my issues were with the content of your post and not with the qualities of your character. You may be a great guy. Your shop may be an excellent shop. That stuff I cannot know. I just disagreed with what you said, and more importantly, with how you said it. That's all.

Good luck to you in your endeavors and I'll see you around the forum.




Cool, hopefully maybe we will deal or trade things one day. Smile


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/25/2010 at 8:20pm
Originally posted by Heimdallalso Heimdallalso wrote:

Originally posted by Anton Chigurh Anton Chigurh wrote:


Butterfly is obscenely more expensive than other companies because Butterfly has chosen to charge obscene prices. Period.


I guess I'm not done here. Butterfly is obscenely more expensive because they have garnered more
"success" than any other manufacturer. They also, arguably, deliver amongst the highest level of quality & consistency to be found in a product line. Does this justify their asking prices? It is up to each individual to "decide".

Sorry you have to indulge me.
You already know this.
LOL
Butterfly do make some good products , I can understand its buyers market but when there low end products like Flextra,premade bats and Yuki are so dear its plain crazy also when they try and a make a product like spinart to gather in some Chinese rubber market but charge 3 times the price well say no more
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buyog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/29/2010 at 8:05am
I saw a lot of tennis rackets that doesn't last for the entire match.
Ask John McEnroe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friendship Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/29/2010 at 8:18am
Originally posted by cntcasey cntcasey wrote:

I don't get it? Why do table tennis rackets cost as much if not more then tennis rackets? Does not seem to me that the manufacturing process would be much harder then a tennis racket, or is there a much bigger mark up in table tennis, cause it's not as popular of a sport?
 
because most of cost is not production cost. there is also development, QC, marketing, additional value of brand, and of course, sales cost...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pnachtwey Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/29/2010 at 12:12pm
I have installed a lot of controls in saw mills and in veneer mills.   It takes a precise lathe to peel the wood as thin as the what is used in TT.   Then the veneer must be flattened and dried.   The surface or face outer layers of the veneer on my blades is beautiful and clear ( no knots or imperfections ).    I do wonder about the core material though.

In Japan the logs are rounded up and a quick visual inspection is done.   The clear 'blocks' are used to make face ( surface ) veneers and the imperfect 'blocks' are use to make the core material in ply wood.  I would be a little upset if face veneers wasn't use throughout on my blades.

One fortunate thing is that TT blades are small and the size of the clear area doesn't need to be big whereas a panel that is used in a house is bigger so it is harder to find clears that big.

Wood density can change a lot espeically with the more porous woods.   This is mostly due to moisture but even the ring density can play a part.  I know this for a fact because I have had to haul lots of lumber while testing the machines and I know that the same size boards can vary widely in weight and it may depend on where the wood was harvested from.

I am surprised that anybody thinks they can buy even to BTY blades had have them play the same.   I don't have two TBS blades to test.

I would think there would be a quality control phase where the veneer is tested for moisture, density,  hardness and flexibility before assembling the wood into blades.   I doubt this happens with the cheaper Chinese blades or even with the medium priced blades.

I agree that the simple production does not cost much.   QC and finding the right combination of woods and insuring a supply from a single source or place would make a big part of the costs.  The marketing cost etc should be a wash.

Tennis racket perfoamance is tied more to the tension on the strings.    Fiberglass molds are easy to make and fill.  I bet one can just add a few more or less fibers or chemicals to make the tennis racket more ore less flexible.   There isn't the problem with the quality control of the raw materials like with TT blades. 




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