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The best frictionless LP |
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pnachtwey 
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Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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 Posted: 05/03/2011 at 10:42am |
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Can't you close your paddle a little more or are you complaining about extra friction so the top spin balls bounce up a little higher. I find that I must close the paddle more and more each time a top spin loop comes back as it has more and more spin. Especially the second loop is troublesome because the change in the paddle angle is the greatest. If I don't the ball bounce off higher and higher. The need to do this goes down as the LP approaches frictionless. |
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/03/2011 at 11:03am |
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I do block the ball right off the bounce and it's easier for me to find the right material with the correct trajectory than changing my strokes. I need a rubber with which I can block close to 90 degree angle off the bounce and the ball comes back over the net low and short. I also need to be able to push aggressively against underspin with slightly open blade.. While the pushes against underspin work excellent, the blocks come off the blade too high and better opponents can smash them. I have tons of different types of pips and I always use the rubber that matches my strokes. I've been using the same basic blocking stroke for over 20 years..
The reason why trajectory is so critical is because I take the ball so early.. Edited by Pushblocker - 05/03/2011 at 11:05am |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pnachtwey
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Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Posted: 05/03/2011 at 3:46pm |
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Some property of the new Grass Dtecs must be different that causes the higher trajectory you see. Then what magical force causes the ball to have a higher trajectory?
If you block with truly frictionless pips with the paddle at 90 degrees the ball should bounce off like a beam of light bouncing off a mirror. The angle in refelection is equal to the angle of incidence no matter what the speed of impact is. When there is a little friction the ball will convert some of the topspin to kinetic energy and the force/impluse will be up causing a higher trajectory. There MUST be some force that causes the higher trajectory. Since the pips aren't truly frictionless it could be the way the pips bend when encountering the spinning ball and then spring back adding to the upwards tangential force. Do the new pips bend like the old ones?
That is evident. Truly frictionless pips would suit your game perfectly because then then angle of reflection would be equal to the angle of incidence regardless of the speed or spin.
Yes, but either there is more friction so the trajectory has a higher angle, the pips bend differently or the new rubber is bouncier so it doesn't bounce as short. Something must be different.
Yes, I follow your games with interest. I find I must always be closing or opening my LP according to the incoming speed and spin. |
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 12:22am |
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Even if you take spin completely out of the equation, there is a huge diffetence in trajectory even if the pips are virtually frictionless. It has to do with pimple geometry. Spacing between pips and pips length and softness make a huge difference. Now that DtecS is shorter, it results in the pips being less flexible which causes a different trajectory..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pnachtwey
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Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 1:03am |
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This is the part I missed. I think it is misleading to change the properties of the rubber and sell it under the same name. |
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roundrobin
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Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 2:47am |
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I find I must always be closing or opening my LP according to the incoming speed and spin. A thick and soft balsa-core blade like Firewall Plus that PB uses will help your LP blocking tremendously. |
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 7:28am |
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They had to as some of the pips they were selling exceeded the 2.0 mm limit. According to them, they never ordered any changes from the original design (which was 2.0 mm thick) but it "seems" as if the quality control wasn't too good and some rubbers even reached 2.2 mm thickness.. Now, the rubber is back at 2.0 mm total thickness and legal again. Edited by Pushblocker - 05/04/2011 at 7:29am |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 7:32am |
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Yes, blade makes a huge difference too.. With the right blade, the dwell time (contact time) is shorter, resulting in less sensitivity to spin.
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pnachtwey
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Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 8:14am |
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Interesting, I would think these rubbers are made in an injection molding machine and the die would never change. All the parts would be identical. I would be surprised if they are made like waffles in a press. There would be too many voids but then I could see the thickness of the rubber base sheet changing. There must be more to this than what we are told. Interesting question. How are TT rubbers formed? |
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/04/2011 at 8:51am |
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I have no idea how pips are made.. Would be interesting to know.. There indeed seemed to be a variation of thickness on those DTecS.. Most of them ranged from 2.03 mm to 2.07 mm total thickness but some samples (which I personally have never seen) reached 2.20 mm. The most common thickness was about 2.07 or so (.07 mm above the limit). Of course, unless you have scientific equipment, you'll never be able to tell the difference.. I actually bought some digital calipers with a tolerance of +/- 0.01 mm
The DTecS always had a base sheet of approx. 0.4 mm. The pips as originally designed were just below 1.6mm which resulted in almost exactly 2.00 mm total thickness. However, most of the pips actually measuered 1.67 to 1.68 mm which, in combination with the 0.4 mm base sheet, would exceed the limit..
There is a new brand now that has 1.68 mm long pips BUT their base sheet is only 0.32 mm, so the total length is exactly 2.0 mm. This rubber is Dragon Talon.. It's almost identical to DTecS with the main difference being the slightly longer pips and slightly thinner basesheet.. Many former DTecS players are switching.. Talon also has lower trajectory. Edited by Pushblocker - 05/04/2011 at 8:54am |
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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pnachtwey
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Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 6:06am |
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A pen holder came to the club to try out his new paddle. He has a modified for pen holder Firewall+ with Giant Dragon Talon 0X on the FH and Innova on the BH. I volunteered to play against him but first he wanted to try my 755 0X LP. 755 0X LP definitely has some spin reversal but it wasn't that hard to balls back. Then the pen holder played with the GDT paddle. There was a HUGE difference in the amount of spin reversal. I could rarely loop three balls before dumping one into the net. Most of the time I dumped the second loop into the net because the back spin was so great. I had to revert to loop one push one. The problem with that is the pen holder attacks pushes. The pen holders conclusion was that both 755 0X and GDT block well and hit well but the spin continuation on the GDT was far superior. He said he liked it better than Pogo 0X. He got the GDT from ztabletennis. It comes with a glue sheet that was used but he said that next time he would remove the glue sheet and use a water based glue to glue the GDT to the blade.
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Kolev
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Joined: 10/04/2004 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1529 |
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 7:23am |
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I second the opinion about the Talon. One of my mates,very experienced LP player with enormous collection of LP's, tried it last week and we were astonished by the amount of the backspin he could produce without much effort and meanwhile having great sense of control. BTW, it was with a sponge about 1.0mm.
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Hallmark Carbon Extreme (x3)
FH: D05/G1/RX BH: Z2/D64/Ω7Pro |
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 8:33am |
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Talon is a fantastic rubber and I might switch to it in the future.. For now, I'm still staying with DTecS as I'm so used to it..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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icontek
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This is FPS Doug Joined: 10/31/2006 Location: Maine, US Status: Offline Points: 5222 |
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 8:50am |
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LP FH / Inverted BH (assuming he is right handed) is probably the most disturbing style I've run into. It enables the penholder to play classic "push/pick hit" over the table, but also allows them the freedom to play a little off the table (FH chopping) if the opponent starts looping. Does this player RPB or twiddle? It sounds terrifying. |
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jpenmaster
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 9:58am |
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I just ordered some talon been using Dtecs for a while it will be interesting to see how it compares. Icontek wait til you see a player with short pips on the FH and long pips on the BH it is crazy!
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 10:04am |
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The pen holder is right handed and doesn't twiddle , loop, or chop that I have seen. He pushes, blocks and hits.
Pushblocker, I think the pen holder reads the forums and has been impressed with your success with Dtecs and Firewall+. I am too but I must be able to attack. I think one has to get to a certain level before the frictionless pip on a Firewall+ will be effectice. I find that the 755 0X LP gets me more points than Pogo 0X LP points because I can make top spin attacks against pushes that are popped up high. My opponents hit most of my BH balls hit with top spin into the net. I think that is because they play the stroke and not the ball. Below 1500 the players mostly just push or block against the LP. When I and my oppoenents get better I will move to more frictionless pips. GDT looks like a good choice.
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Pushblocker
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Joined: 12/09/2009 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 1976 |
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Posted: 05/10/2011 at 10:30am |
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Hitting is fairly easy with the DTecS or Talon BUT only against underspin.. It gets a little "tricky" when trying to attack dead balls or topspin. I do it occasionally but I make too many unforced errors when doing so.. When I don't make an unforced error when attacking against topspin, it's usually a point as it confuses the heck out of the opponent..
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2010 Florida State Champion
Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand |
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Pushblocker wrote: