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What motivates someone to use short pips? |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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What is at the end supposed to mean? As I said, what a waste of time... You win. |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Great match to watch. Haven't seen a decent old style short pips hitter for a while. Its pretty impressive how many balls were able to be hit or blocked with lots of pace. lots of amazing timing and aggressive play. Playing that style of hard hitting game is great. playing someone who can't keep the hitting up and tends to push a bit and soft block and hit is so not so great. This style of play is not a short cut to somehow confusing people or getting cheap points etc. it's about being up at the table all the time hitting hard and staying up at the table. This guy in the video at almost 50 is a bit special.
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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it is an emoticon. people generally use that in forums to express facial gestures. |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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today I played at my club.
there are all levels of players. out of 10 loops I received in matches, if my block was stable and deep with sp, the ball would not come back 8 times. second loop would generally hit the net. even thought this players are not sp experts they have all played and trained against sp. so please stop saying that it is not harder to loop against sp, that they have no real effect on the ball, etc, which only leads to confusing people. Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 12:44am |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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Look at the Brian Pace videos. What Brian has discovered is that the inverted FH has much different spin chararcteristics thand the BH SP spin. This means the opponent must always adjust to what side of the paddle hit the ball. This is a no brainer ( duh ). However, He Zhi Wen only plays with SP one side so every hit is done with SP. In the case of He Zhi Wen the two different rubber effect does not come into play. Still the opponents have difficulty. I think this is due more to the skil of He Zhi Wen than the paddle he uses.
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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it's a combination. his skills are great and the fact that almost nobody uses sp helps him a lot. it also helps me a lot against you inverted folks Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 1:18am |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Yeah, only you are right, lol. Thanks to setting us straight. By the way, what kind of level you are talking about, whose "second loop would generally hit the net"? Edited by roundrobin - 09/22/2011 at 1:20am |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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I agree that we shouldn't confuse people, which is why i question your statements, as they are very confusing. In one post, you admit that inverted is easier to generate spin with, in the next, you claim that it's harder to play against a sp block because it's deceptive... Isn't spinmanipulation the most deceptive game there is? And if so, with what rubber can you change the spin the most? Yes, that's right, with inverted. Again, sp aren't deceptive and to loop against sp is every bit as easy as looping against inverted. The problem people have against sp is either that they aren't used to play against it, or the variation in spin from sp blocks and inverted blocks. But, then it would be equally correct to claim that it is the inverted block that is hard to loop against. |
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The holy grail
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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sorry but I'm tired of people here talking about gao jun, liu goliang, he zhi wen like they know what they are saying, with an attitude of "I know everything", just to later see a video of them playing and finding out they are below what I would call recreational level. from now on I only accept messages from people who have a video on youtube and who have played more than 6 months with sp. if you are not in this group, please ignore me Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 2:06am |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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What a dork... |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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naaaaa man you don't know what you are talking about..... going back to kindergarten 1- sp have smaller contact surface 2- this means that if you loop with extreme spin the ball returned will probably have some backspin but not as much as lp so it's harder to guess how much (this depends on many factors which are difficult to consider in the miliseconds you have to prepare a shot). 3- this means that your next loop can't be forward as the previous one but more with an open racket because otherwise your ball will hit the net. the more loops, the more backspin the ball will start gaining. that's why it is always easier to loop against inverted than it is to loop against sp. you can loop 50 times against inverted and you will always get the exact same ball back. add to this being in a match where the time for reaction is minimal and you have yourself a dangerous weapon Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 2:37am |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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sorry I'm making a really big effort to respect you despite what you show. please make that same effort and keep a climate of mutual respect. otherwise nothing stops me from being offensive to you as well and we don't want to go down that path, leaving a bad image in a public forum.... Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 2:39am |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Whatever... You have not answered my question in any way, and instead chose to ridicule my skill/knowledge in short pips... What respect are you talking about? Edited by roundrobin - 09/22/2011 at 2:40am |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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there is a huge difference between saying I disagree with you and start calling you names. I said that many people here with little knowledge talk a lot, specially mentioning pro players and what they supposedly do. the best teacher is personal experience. that's general, not personal to you. I really don't know what your level is. Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 3:45am |
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ghostzen
Silver Member Joined: 08/15/2010 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 881 |
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Short pips are not some magic weapon to put on your bat that means people all of a sudden cant get the ball back when you block or hit.. this is untrue. Many players think that this is the case. there is no quick fix to winning points. Hard work is required whatever style of play you choose.
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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There's a big difference between being open-minded while trying to learn, and coming here preaching that your own personal experience is the best teacher. That is the biggest boatload of bologni when it comes to learn table tennis. You are insisting by self-discovery that your observation is the most accurate, even when most of us are telling you you've mistaken spin control with randomness. It is based on this mistake that you keep insisting you are correct that I've asked about your opponent's level, which you chose not to answer. |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Funny, you don't approve of RR's name calling, but when you reply to me, you take it back to kindergarten level, assuming this is where I come from? Again, you insinuate that there is some magic with sp, claiming that a block from inverted is always the same, but a block from sp is random? Sorry, but that is rubbish. Sp is every bit as predictable as inverted, in fact, due to the lesser ability to generate spin, it is even more predictable. The advatnage you gain with sp isn't the "random effect" in blocks, cause they don't exist, the advantage is that players are used to play against inverted and the sp block comes back a bit different, so people can't simply rely on their muscle memory but have to adjust for th sp. If the majority of players used sp, you would think that inverted created a random effect, since people would struggle with those blocks. It's all about what people are used to. As for level, you want every one to show a video of their level, yet you show nothing about your own level? I'm not a high level player, not even close and I usually rate my self as an advanced noob. I do how ever have contacts with high level players, I talk to them and I do think I have a pretty good understanding about the game at the higher levels as well. APW, who seems to agree with me and RR, is rated in the top 100 in UK, is that good enough for you? So, drop the superior attitude and realise what people are saying, sp have no random effect, if they did, they would be banned. Not to mention, extremely hard to play with, if you don't know what spin your shots will carry. Last, but not least, what sp do you use that reverse the spin on a block? I've played with a few sp my self, and played against many others, but none of them returns a loop as backspin if you block. A loop that is blocked with sp comes back with top spin, al though not as much as if it was blocked with inverted. Unless it's a chop block, but since we only have talked about a regular block here, I'm going to assume this is what you are talking about. Edited by Speedplay - 09/22/2011 at 6:50am |
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The holy grail
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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it is in a way like that, at least to a certain level of players. I am not a guy who "thinks" "wonders what if" "has the theory" "sees that x pro player does this or that"... I can sustain everything I say with countless matches, even in tournaments. |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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I can sustain everything I say with a lot of experience against all levels of play. and with many sp rubbers in my history. I wonder how many in this thread can say the same. |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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I'll put it on a kindergarten level. sp behave different than inverted. this creates uncertainty in the opponent who faces 10 inverted and 1 sp. this becomes an advantage. period. that's all any human living on the face of the earth should ever have to say about sp playing. now shutdown this whole thread you mods. Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 9:04am |
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stefashka
Silver Member Joined: 11/22/2010 Location: Moldova Status: Offline Points: 588 |
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There is no uncertainty with SPs, they just play different to inverted and this is what creates difficulties, but players from a certain level can overcome all of them with almost no hassle - the most of hassle is provided by SP mastery, and not by some kind of magic. This is why people here keep asking you about your and your opponents' level. The reason why your opponents cannot loop against your SP block consistently is most probably because you are using some classic SP like Spectol or Challenger - they are known for producing fast no-spin blocks (or even some reversal) and the key word here is "fast", not "spin". I.e. you simply kill their timing and they cannot understand/adjust for some reason.
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Darker 7P-2A CP - Dignics 09c, TSP Curl P3α
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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yes, obviously no rubber produces just random behavior, it's a rubber, it's pure physics... but to opponents that don't play against these rubbers all the time it is confusing many times. you are not sitting drinking a coffee and saying "ok, player A made that loop and B made this block technique so given the pips he uses the exact spin on the ball is this". that's in your dreamland. in real world in a real match you'll decide in miliseconds and hope your shot is somehow accurate. so error margin is high. you have seen in the video that players the level of suss make mistakes against sp so don't come here like "ohhh it's a piece of cake, players of a certain level will overcome that". yes, the two most common returns are "no spin" or "reversal", and many in betweens. most guys in this forum can barely put the ball on the table so I won't even think about mastering sp technique (both using it and against it). that's where the word uncertainty comes in and the magic of the sp is felt. but yeah, we keep on talking about how pips are predictable and how ma long or waldner have no problems with them. in our dirty undergroud filthy table tennis world a sp player will take your heart out and show it to you before you die Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 9:59am |
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pnachtwey
Platinum Member Joined: 03/09/2010 Location: Vancouver, WA Status: Offline Points: 2035 |
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I have been motivated to buy a 1.5mm 802 just to try something with a little less spin capability than my 802-40 I currently use. As noted above, 802-40 is almost like playing with inverted.
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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don't do that. the topsheet is almost the same, you will feel no difference. get dhs 652 or 651. 652 is a bit closer to 802-40 in terms of creating spin but has less spin reversal. 651 has lot of spin reversal but you can't get much spin out of it. |
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sticharo
Super Member Joined: 12/29/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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In summary ladies and gentlemen of the jury....
the testimony clearly indicates that 1) That the basic idea of SP is to use them to create time pressure by utilizing shots that are unique to short pips (ie being able to drive balls that are lower, ease of taking balls early etc) 2) In the hands of an unskilled player SP may produce shot oddities that may be difficult for the receiver to handle. These oddities would be the rough equivalent of hitting your finger during a return. It may lead lower level players to conclude that it's strictly the rubber producing those oddities thus striking even more terror in the hearts of the average club player. The SP legend begins to grow. 3) A lower to mid level player playing against short pips may be unfamiliar with or intimidated by SP and that may result in indecisive shot making. The SP legend continues to grow. 4) At higher level's...where skill trumps/transcends equipment.... SP rubber is far less of a factor in deciding outcomes of a match. As you can see ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have a situation where plaintiff and defendant present their cases by talking past each other. It's a presentation that has devolved into a SP purity test thus leaving the newer or curious player hoping to learn about SP just as bewildered about SP as before joining this thread. Therefore, I ask you to judge both parties guilty even though both plaintiff and defendant seem to have valid arguments. I rest my case.
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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it's more like 1- sp are better for blocking. they produce a more dangerous ball to opponent than an inverted block (returns go from flat to deep reversal depending on the rubber and the stroke). 2- in low levels this can make disasters since your opponents suck like oil pipe. 3) A lower to mid level player playing against short pips may be
unfamiliar with or intimidated by SP and that may result in indecisive
shot making. The SP legend continues to grow. 4) the higher your level and the more you play against sp, the less you'll fall for it's tricks.
5) if you have totally mastered sp technique like me and you play players not on the chinese national team you can make them all wish they were never born Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 10:18am |
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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tell you more...
instead of reading all these lame comments about how playing against sp is the same as inverted go to people who actually know what they are talking about. for example http://www.drneubauer.com/shop.php?cat=1&cat_s=5&lid=us&pid=11 http://www.drneubauer.com/shop.php?cat=1&cat_s=5&lid=us&pid=34 where you will read "Blocking on topspin or smash will produce very disturbing returns, the ball tends to go down and wobbles. It is a supreme weapon for blocking, counter-attacking and hitting in both 1.5 and 2.0mm versions." and "Moreover the rubber produces a decisive disturbing effect since the ball is very flat and “falls down” while blocking or hitting." enough said. -all who said incorrect stuff please abandon the forum immediately -all who have learned from me please pay 5 dollars to my paypal account (pm for actual paypal address) -adam sharara come to my office, I wanna have a little one on one with ya Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 10:35am |
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sticharo
Super Member Joined: 12/29/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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sa01..thanks for the info
Riddle me this: If I'm receiving a low topspin ball generated by inverted rubber and I'm using SP....what would be the proper technique for returning that ball? What would be the key points? |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Offline Points: 4952 |
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SP, Med Pip, and LP are all tools - just like sa01.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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sticharo
Super Member Joined: 12/29/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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Tools aren't techniques.
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