What motivates someone to use short pips?

kenneyy88 wrote: Time pressure, hitting the ball early off the bounce. Speed, Try to hit fast shots.

Edited by sticharo - 09/21/2011 at 9:36am

sa01 wrote: Speedplay wrote: Not to add to the confusion here, but I play a lot against short pips and I don't find it any harder to loop against sp blocks then it is to loop against inverted blocks. It is how ever different which is why most people struggle with it, since they are more used to loop against an inverted block. it also depends on the type of loops you do.the more spin you put, the harder the next shot is for you.watch this videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5zlEU_RtMat:0:501:512:202:292:412:47all errors because of he's pips.if they can do that to suss imagine what pips can do to you and me

Again, I disagree. Suss might miss due to the pips, but not because the pips are deceptive or in any way harder to play against, but because he isn't used to play against pips and the pip block breaks his rhythm.

Most people tend to practice against double inverted players and are used to the balls coming from the inverted rubber, that's why they some times have problem playing against pips, short or long. There is no "secret" about them and they certainly aren't harder to play against, but rather the opposite.

Don't get me wrong, I used to struggle a lot against sp players until I begun practice with people who used sp, and now that I'm used to play against it, I don't find it harder to loop against sp blocks then inverted blocks.

The people that play against my 802-40 think it plays like inverted. Some are surprised at how much spin I can get. There is nothing tricky about SP. SP do tend to scrub some spin off the ball but not that much different from inverted. How much depends more on the stroke and the ability to understand what spin is coming in and neutralize it. One can do the same with inverted. I think it is how people tend to use SP that makes it different from normal inverted. I tend to flat hit a lot more with a lower trajectory with SP.

I like the fact that I can concentrate more on hitting than reacting to spin. I like the way SP blocks and flat hits.   At slower speeds I can brush the ball and return a BH loop. It takes a lot of wrist action. Also the stroke must be more up and down and not over the top like inverted. I find that BH looping with inverted is much easier even if the inverted rubber is 1mm Reflectoid. I like the lower weight of SP.   My TBS+2xT05 weighed 181 gm which is more that I like to swing around. When I replaced the BH side with 802-40 1.8mm the weight dropped to 165 gm. I can handle that.

The reality is that I am more of a ball whacker than a looper. I was told a long time ago that I should try SP for the way I play and it took me about 1 year to get around to it last winter. The only other options I see is a thin inverted rubber going back to LP.

Those comments about not having a good back hand are not correct. Accurately flat hitting requires precision.   Even playing with LPs requires precision. They are just different.

Speedplay wrote: sa01 wrote: Speedplay wrote: Not to add to the confusion here, but I play a lot against short pips and I don't find it any harder to loop against sp blocks then it is to loop against inverted blocks. It is how ever different which is why most people struggle with it, since they are more used to loop against an inverted block. it also depends on the type of loops you do.the more spin you put, the harder the next shot is for you.watch this videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5zlEU_RtMat:0:501:512:202:292:412:47all errors because of he's pips.if they can do that to suss imagine what pips can do to you and me Again, I disagree. Suss might miss due to the pips, but not because the pips are deceptive or in any way harder to play against, but because he isn't used to play against pips and the pip block breaks his rhythm. Most people tend to practice against double inverted players and are used to the balls coming from the inverted rubber, that's why they some times have problem playing against pips, short or long. There is no "secret" about them and they certainly aren't harder to play against, but rather the opposite. Don't get me wrong, I used to struggle a lot against sp players until I begun practice with people who used sp, and now that I'm used to play against it, I don't find it harder to loop against sp blocks then inverted blocks.

no, he misses because the pips are deceptive, and you never really know how the ball is coming.
I have played with pips and I have trained against them so I know what I'm talking about.
remember that it's christian suss we are talking about, not a drunk guy we found in the bar...
he probably played a couple of times against pips in his life...
please don't be disrespectful to these people.


Edited by sa01 - 09/21/2011 at 4:04pm

 [/QUOTE]

802-40 is as close as you'll get to inverted.
if you use other rubbers it'll get harder for your opponents.
[/QUOTE]

sticharo wrote:

802-40 is as close as you'll get to inverted.
if you use other rubbers it'll get harder for your opponents.
[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

if you are starting you could use 802-40 or 802 or dhs 652 (this is a bit more saucy ) or spectol (expensive and nothing special).
in the case of 802-40 I would say the advantage is less sensitive to spin and encourages you to play flat hit close to table rather than to loop far from table.



Edited by sa01 - 09/21/2011 at 5:10pm

You can do similar blocks with invert too, a chop block will have some backspin, a touch block will give a slow floating ball, ...  Maybe because it's simpler and more effective to whack the ball back with stop spin, you don't see many invert players doing these type of blocks. 
For inverted, the strokes to do the different blocks are quite different so there is not really anything "deceptive" about it.  Can different blocks be done with SP using strokes that looks almost identical? 

chu_bun wrote: You can do similar blocks with invert too, a chop block will have some backspin, a touch block will give a slow floating ball, ...  Maybe because it's simpler and more effective to whack the ball back with stop spin, you don't see many invert players doing these type of blocks.  For inverted, the strokes to do the different blocks are quite different so there is not really anything "deceptive" about it.  Can different blocks be done with SP using strokes that looks almost identical?

well the whole point is that you always block the same way with sp and the ball is not always identical. this is due to the rubber itself, not your strokes.
that's what confuses and creates mistakes.
you can do many shots with inverted but you have to make different movements so it's easy for the opponent to see what you are doing.

sa01 wrote: well the whole point is that you always block the same way with sp and the ball is not always identical. this is due to the rubber itself, not your strokes. that's what confuses and creates mistakes. you can do many shots with inverted but you have to make different movements so it's easy for the opponent to see what you are doing.

That's a myth, absolutely false.  Gao Jun is the master of blocking with different spin with short pips, and she varies the contact and direction of follow-through all the time to vary the spin.  For some reason inverted rubber users always like to spread this kind of false information about any kind of pips.

roundrobin wrote: sa01 wrote: well the whole point is that you always block the same way with sp and the ball is not always identical. this is due to the rubber itself, not your strokes. that's what confuses and creates mistakes. you can do many shots with inverted but you have to make different movements so it's easy for the opponent to see what you are doing. That's a myth, absolutely false.  Gao Jun is the master of blocking with different spin with short pips, and she varies the contact and direction of follow-through all the time to vary the spin.  For some reason inverted rubber users always like to spread this kind of false information about any kind of pips.

1- I'm not an inverted user, I use sp
2- yes, if you come to a semi god level you can do all crazy things, just like with any rubber.
but this is not the world us amateur wannabe players live in.
in our world simple flat block can create many problems to opponents due to variations rubber creates.

roundrobin wrote: sa01 wrote: well the whole point is that you always block the same way with sp and the ball is not always identical. this is due to the rubber itself, not your strokes.that's what confuses and creates mistakes.you can do many shots with inverted but you have to make different movements so it's easy for the opponent to see what you are doing. That's a myth, absolutely false.  Gao Jun is the master of blocking with different spin with short pips, and she varies the contact and direction of follow-through all the time to vary the spin.  For some reason inverted rubber users always like to spread this kind of false information about any kind of pips.

It doesn't happen very often, but here I agree with RR and was actually about to make a similar reply my self when I found RR beat me to the punch. There is no random effect in sp (or lp for that matter) so the difference you get is what your opponent have created. At our low level, it might seem randon since we aren't able to perform the block in the same way, even though we think we do.

The reason why I find lp harder to play against the sp is that with lp there is some time reversal, meaning, you get back the opposite of the spin you created, but sometimes the ball comes back dead, all depending on the amount of spin you created in the first place. Assuming the lp player blocks the same, that is. A good lp player can sure play his tricks to fool even skilled players.

sa01 wrote: jt99sf wrote: 'deception' with pips will depend on your playing level and how you use it with the other side (rubber). even world class level players have problems with pips so it's not like level matters that much

sa01 wrote: jt99sf wrote: sa01 wrote: jt99sf wrote: 'deception' with pips will depend on your playing level and how you use it with the other side (rubber). even world class level players have problems with pips so it's not like level matters that much   I think you are confused. well it's evident from the video that suss had problems with the pips. and it's also common sense that he played/trained many times against sp rubbers. so.... draw your own conclusions.

jt99sf wrote: sa01 wrote: jt99sf wrote: sa01 wrote: jt99sf wrote: 'deception' with pips will depend on your playing level and how you use it with the other side (rubber). even world class level players have problems with pips so it's not like level matters that much   I think you are confused. well it's evident from the video that suss had problems with the pips. and it's also common sense that he played/trained many times against sp rubbers. so.... draw your own conclusions.   so you draw your conclusion on 1 match?

well I said that even pro players had problems with sp.
not that every pro player had problems with sp.
one example would be enough to support my statement.
but watch more of he zhi wen's matches and you'll find a similar pattern in many.
remember that if something makes a pro slightly uncomfortable in his game it will make you have nightmares for days


Edited by sa01 - 09/21/2011 at 7:08pm

roundrobin wrote: well I said that even pro players had problems with sp. not that every pro player had problems with sp. one example would be enough to support my statement. but watch more of he zhi wen's matches and you'll find a similar pattern. Oh well what the heck... Even pros have problem with pips because the blocks are faster and flatter than inverted blocks, and in the right hands short pips allow users to block with subtle spin variations easier than with inverted.  It is NOT because short pips are unpredictable.  If you don't accept this fact there's nothing to argue about.

producing spin is always easier with inverted because the surface of contact is larger.
unpredictable or not is subjective, it becomes unpredictable when variables such as speed, reaction, etc come into play (you don't have that much time to think).
but it does add a variable to the game that many find it hard to handle.
from lowest levels like ours to highest like suss'.