What motivates someone to use short pips?

sa01 wrote: roundrobin wrote: well I said that even pro players had problems with sp. not that every pro player had problems with sp. one example would be enough to support my statement. but watch more of he zhi wen's matches and you'll find a similar pattern. Oh well what the heck... Even pros have problem with pips because the blocks are faster and flatter than inverted blocks, and in the right hands short pips allow users to block with subtle spin variations easier than with inverted.  It is NOT because short pips are unpredictable.  If you don't accept this fact there's nothing to argue about. producing spin is always easier with inverted because the surface of contact is larger. unpredictable or not is subjective, it becomes unpredictable when variables such as speed, reaction, etc come into play (you don't have that much time to think). but it does add a variable to the game that many find it hard to handle. from lowest levels like ours to highest like suss'.

What is at the end supposed to mean?

As I said, what a waste of time... You win. 

roundrobin wrote: sa01 wrote: roundrobin wrote: well I said that even pro players had problems with sp. not that every pro player had problems with sp. one example would be enough to support my statement. but watch more of he zhi wen's matches and you'll find a similar pattern. Oh well what the heck... Even pros have problem with pips because the blocks are faster and flatter than inverted blocks, and in the right hands short pips allow users to block with subtle spin variations easier than with inverted.  It is NOT because short pips are unpredictable.  If you don't accept this fact there's nothing to argue about. producing spin is always easier with inverted because the surface of contact is larger. unpredictable or not is subjective, it becomes unpredictable when variables such as speed, reaction, etc come into play (you don't have that much time to think). but it does add a variable to the game that many find it hard to handle. from lowest levels like ours to highest like suss'. What is at the end supposed to mean? As I said, what a waste of time... You win.

it is an emoticon.
people generally use that in forums to express facial gestures.

Look at the Brian Pace videos. What Brian has discovered is that the inverted FH has much different spin chararcteristics thand the BH SP spin.   This means the opponent must always adjust to what side of the paddle hit the ball.   This is a no brainer ( duh ). However, He Zhi Wen only plays with SP one side so every hit is done with SP. In the case of He Zhi Wen the two different rubber effect does not come into play. Still the opponents have difficulty.   I think this is due more to the skil of He Zhi Wen than the paddle he uses.

sa01 wrote: today I played at my club. there are all levels of players. out of 10 loops I received in matches, if my block was stable and deep with sp, the ball would not come back 8 times. second loop would generally hit the net. even thought this players are not sp experts they have all played and trained against sp. so please stop saying that it is not harder to loop against sp, that they have no real effect on the ball, etc, which only leads to confusing people.

Yeah, only you are right, lol.  Thanks to setting us straight. 

By the way, what kind of level you are talking about, whose "second loop would generally hit the net"? 


Edited by roundrobin - 09/22/2011 at 1:20am

roundrobin wrote: sa01 wrote: today I played at my club. there are all levels of players. out of 10 loops I received in matches, if my block was stable and deep with sp, the ball would not come back 8 times. second loop would generally hit the net. even thought this players are not sp experts they have all played and trained against sp. so please stop saying that it is not harder to loop against sp, that they have no real effect on the ball, etc, which only leads to confusing people. Yeah, only you are right, lol.  Thanks to setting us straight.  By the way, what kind of level you are talking about, whose "second loop would generally hit the net"?

sorry but I'm tired of people here talking about gao jun, liu goliang, he zhi wen like they know what they are saying, with an attitude of "I know everything", just to later see a video of them playing and finding out they are below what I would call recreational level.
from now on I only accept messages from people who have a video on youtube and who have played more than 6 months with sp.
if you are not in this group, please ignore me



Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 2:06am

Speedplay wrote: sa01 wrote: today I played at my club.there are all levels of players.out of 10 loops I received in matches, if my block was stable and deep with sp, the ball would not come back 8 times.second loop would generally hit the net.even thought this players are not sp experts they have all played and trained against sp.so please stop saying that it is not harder to loop against sp, that they have no real effect on the ball, etc, which only leads to confusing people. I agree that we shouldn't confuse people, which is why i question your statements, as they are very confusing. In one post, you admit that inverted is easier to generate spin with, in the next, you claim that it's harder to play against a sp block because it's deceptive... Isn't spinmanipulation the most deceptive game there is? And if so, with what rubber can you change the spin the most? Yes, that's right, with inverted. Again, sp aren't deceptive and to loop against sp is every bit as easy as looping against inverted. The problem people have against sp is either that they aren't used to play against it, or the variation in spin from sp blocks and inverted blocks. But, then it would be equally correct to claim that it is the inverted block that is hard to loop against.

naaaaa man you don't know what you are talking about.....
going back to kindergarten
1- sp have smaller contact surface
2- this means that if you loop with extreme spin the ball returned will probably have some backspin but not as much as lp so it's harder to guess how much (this depends on many factors which are difficult to consider in the miliseconds you have to prepare a shot).
3- this means that your next loop can't be forward as the previous one but more with an open racket because otherwise your ball will hit the net. the more loops, the more backspin the ball will start gaining.

that's why it is always easier to loop against inverted than it is to loop against sp.
you can loop 50 times against inverted and you will always get the exact same ball back.

add to this being in a match where the time for reaction is minimal and you have yourself a dangerous weapon


Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 2:37am

sa01 wrote: sorry I'm making a really big effort to respect you despite what you show. please make that same effort and keep a climate of mutual respect. otherwise nothing stops me from being offensive to you as well....

Whatever... You have not answered my question in any way, and instead chose to ridicule my skill/knowledge in short pips... What respect are you talking about?


Edited by roundrobin - 09/22/2011 at 2:40am

Short pips are not some magic weapon to put on your bat that means people all of a sudden cant get the ball back when you block or hit.. this is untrue. Many players think that this is the case. there is no quick fix to winning points. Hard work is required whatever style of play you choose.

sa01 wrote: Speedplay wrote: sa01 wrote: today I played at my club.there are all levels of players.out of 10 loops I received in matches, if my block was stable and deep with sp, the ball would not come back 8 times.second loop would generally hit the net.even thought this players are not sp experts they have all played and trained against sp.so please stop saying that it is not harder to loop against sp, that they have no real effect on the ball, etc, which only leads to confusing people. I agree that we shouldn't confuse people, which is why i question your statements, as they are very confusing. In one post, you admit that inverted is easier to generate spin with, in the next, you claim that it's harder to play against a sp block because it's deceptive... Isn't spinmanipulation the most deceptive game there is? And if so, with what rubber can you change the spin the most? Yes, that's right, with inverted. Again, sp aren't deceptive and to loop against sp is every bit as easy as looping against inverted. The problem people have against sp is either that they aren't used to play against it, or the variation in spin from sp blocks and inverted blocks. But, then it would be equally correct to claim that it is the inverted block that is hard to loop against. naaaaa man you don't know what you are talking about.....going back to kindergarten1- sp have smaller contact surface2- this means that if you loop with extreme spin the ball returned will probably have some backspin but not as much as lp so it's harder to guess how much (this depends on many factors which are difficult to consider in the miliseconds you have to prepare a shot).3- this means that your next loop can't be forward as the previous one but more with an open racket because otherwise your ball will hit the net. the more loops, the more backspin the ball will start gaining.that's why it is always easier to loop against inverted than it is to loop against sp.you can loop 50 times against inverted and you will always get the exact same ball back.add to this being in a match where the time for reaction is minimal and you have yourself a dangerous weapon

Funny, you don't approve of RR's name calling, but when you reply to me, you take it back to kindergarten level, assuming this is where I come from?

Again, you insinuate that there is some magic with sp, claiming that a block from inverted is always the same, but a block from sp is random? Sorry, but that is rubbish. Sp is every bit as predictable as inverted, in fact, due to the lesser ability to generate spin, it is even more predictable.

The advatnage you gain with sp isn't the "random effect" in blocks, cause they don't exist, the advantage is that players are used to play against inverted and the sp block comes back a bit different, so people can't simply rely on their muscle memory but have to adjust for th sp. If the majority of players used sp, you would think that inverted created a random effect, since people would struggle with those blocks. It's all about what people are used to.

As for level, you want every one to show a video of their level, yet you show nothing about your own level? I'm not a high level player, not even close and I usually rate my self as an advanced noob. I do how ever have contacts with high level players, I talk to them and I do think I have a pretty good understanding about the game at the higher levels as well.

APW, who seems to agree with me and RR, is rated in the top 100 in UK, is that good enough for you?

So, drop the superior attitude and realise what people are saying, sp have no random effect, if they did, they would be banned. Not to mention, extremely hard to play with, if you don't know what spin your shots will carry.

Last, but not least, what sp do you use that reverse the spin on a block? I've played with a few sp my self, and played against many others, but none of them returns a loop as backspin if you block. A loop that is blocked with sp comes back with top spin, al though not as much as if it was blocked with inverted. Unless it's a chop block, but since we only have talked about a regular block here, I'm going to assume this is what you are talking about.

Edited by Speedplay - 09/22/2011 at 6:50am

roundrobin wrote: sa01 wrote: there is a huge difference between saying I disagree with you and start calling you names. I said that many people here with little knowledge talk a lot, specially mentioning pro players and what they supposedly do. the best teacher is personal experience. that's general, not personal to you. I really don't know what your level is. There's a big difference between being open-minded while trying to learn, and coming here preaching that your own personal experience is the best teacher.  That is the biggest boatload of bologni when it comes to learn table tennis.  You are insisting by self-discovery that your observation is the most accurate, even when most of us are telling you you've mistaken spin control with randomness.  It is based on this mistake that you keep insisting you are correct that I've asked about your opponent's level, which you chose not to answer.

I can sustain everything I say with a lot of experience against all levels of play.
and with many sp rubbers in my history.
I wonder how many in this thread can say the same.

sa01 wrote:   sp behave different than inverted. this creates uncertainty in the opponent who faces 10 inverted and 1 sp. this becomes an advantage.

I have been motivated to buy a 1.5mm 802 just to try something with a little less spin capability than my 802-40 I currently use. As noted above, 802-40 is almost like playing with inverted.

In summary ladies and gentlemen of the jury....

tell you more...
instead of reading all these lame comments about how playing against sp is the same as inverted go to people who actually know what they are talking about.
for example
http://www.drneubauer.com/shop.php?cat=1&cat_s=5&lid=us&pid=11
http://www.drneubauer.com/shop.php?cat=1&cat_s=5&lid=us&pid=34
where you will read

"Blocking on topspin or smash will produce very disturbing returns, the ball tends to go down and wobbles. It is a supreme weapon for blocking, counter-attacking and hitting in both 1.5 and 2.0mm versions."

and

"Moreover the rubber produces a decisive disturbing effect since the ball is very flat and “falls down” while blocking or hitting."

enough said.
-all who said incorrect stuff please abandon the forum immediately
-all who have learned from me please pay 5 dollars to my paypal account (pm for actual paypal address)
-adam sharara come to my office, I wanna have a little one on one with ya


Edited by sa01 - 09/22/2011 at 10:35am

SP, Med Pip, and LP are all tools - just like sa01.