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What motivates someone to use short pips? |
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sticharo
Super Member Joined: 12/29/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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Posted: 09/20/2011 at 5:45pm |
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Apologies in advance if this question is too elementary. Recently I've been playing more opponents with short pips on their backhands. Why do some play with short pips? More specifically, what advantages and disadvantages do short pips have? One guy in particular just seemed to flat hit a bh counter drive and didn't seem all that interested in returning top spin for top spin. Is there a reason for that? What was he hoping to accomplish? (other than to beat me, which he did) Is there a resource somewhere where I can read more about short pips? I'm not going to run out and buy any, I'm just interested to know more about them. Thank you. |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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In short, sorry about the pun, short pips are less sensitive to spin then your regular inverted, while still able to produce spin on their own, al though not as much as inverted. Short pips are best suited for hitting, even though it is possible to loop with them. So if you prefer to hit through the spin rather then to work with (or against) it, then short pips is an excellent choice. Me, I can't use them to save my life, but I know how hard they are to play against if used correctly.
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The holy grail
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tpgh2k
Platinum Member Joined: 09/14/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2103 |
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some people use short pips to hide weaknesses with their bh or their serve receive game. others use it because they like punching at the ball.
remember that short pips is only really powerful when you're close to the table. once you're mid-distance or far back....it has no power at all. you can chop with it from far back....but i haven't see many that are able to launch a ball from 12 feet behind the table. |
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Online Points: 4949 |
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For combo players like me (i.e. inverted/pips), it changes the pace and timing of the game when I return the ball with the 2 different surfaces. Hopefully to my favor.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
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Tinykin_2
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This why I think that the rules should specify the same model rubber on each side.
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jt99sf
Premier Member Joined: 04/29/2005 Location: San Francisco Status: Online Points: 4949 |
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you should change your game to tennis.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Or keep on hoping/whining/bitching about it for the rest of his life... Funny how when they don't use something they always want to have them banned. Freedom of choice is not in their vocabulary, it seems. If you don't want to use something, leave it to us who do. (Tired of hearing "pure" players complain about combo players.) |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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Short pips allow a flatter trajectory so the ball can be blocked/hit back faster. The downside to this speed advantage is less spin generating capability. So if you like to spin everything and create an arc to carry the ball over the net, pips are not for you. |
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jt99sf
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It's a skillset he has not learned yet, or perhaps never will to the 'closed minded'.
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Photino/Super Viscaria : H3 (FH)/Dr N pips(BH)
林德成 HardBat:Hock 3-Ply /Dr Evil |
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pablogilberto
Silver Member Joined: 04/21/2008 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 550 |
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does anybody have a link of how to use SP's effectively? i purchased a Stiga Royal but for the life of me, I still can't use it effectively.
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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sp are a bit less sensitive to incoming spin.
however if opponent loops hard and you do bad block it's the same as inverted, your ball will go out. balls returned by sp are not as linear as inverted. sometimes you'll receive a dead ball, sometimes chop, it's hard to guess, especially after consecutive loops... that's why if you only block it adds another element to your game. for a looper, a blocker with sp is a harder opponent than a blocker with inverted because of this variation added. the counters of sp are -less attacking capabilities -you can't back away from table too much, if you do so you the rubber is less effective or you end up chopping. but you can be a world class player with sp (he zhi wen, tang peng, etc) Edited by sa01 - 09/20/2011 at 7:31pm |
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sticharo
Super Member Joined: 12/29/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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So basically short pips are used to mess with loopers and to sort of cherry pick "loose" balls to smash?
Am I getting warm? Are basic counter hit strokes performed the same as they are with inverted?
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roundrobin
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Not quite. Short pips was the dominant rubber used by world champions way before looper's inverted rubbers were invented. The game with short pips at world-class level was speed-oriented instead of spin-oriented. Inverted rubber loopers with their huge spin-generating capability overwhelmed short pips players and became the dominant rubber. So you have it backwards. |
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Leatherback
Super Member Joined: 02/09/2010 Status: Offline Points: 191 |
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short pips are generally used by
1. choppers who manipulate the spin and counter attack from both sides 2. loopers with a strong forehand that tend to smash as opposed to spin with the backhand 3. Hitters who rarely spin the ball unless it is too low to smash 4. penholders who play very close to the table and smash off the bounce short pips are not a disadvantage in any way, and are only perceived that way because alot of people that use them simply put them on because they have a weakness reading spin. they have a strength and it is smashing power. Never spin with pips, only hit....unless you are chopping |
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sa01
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I used sp for some time and it is an advantage when blocking. even in world class level, watch he zhi wen mess up the best looper's game. with serve receiving it also helps. you can also loop but if you are a looper you'll be better with inverted. flat smash is not a shot that you'll be doing often, at least from a certain level up, so I wouldn't worry to much about this shot. if you use it in backhand your game is basically flat hit/block at a good speed to make the other uncomfortable and miss. watch in youtube tang peng, he uses sp in backhand. watch his matches against ma long, you can see ma long doesn't care at all about the pips, he just loops every ball full speed, but not many players can do that. |
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roar
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because LGL might be the coolest tt player ever....
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sa01
Gold Member Joined: 05/28/2011 Status: Offline Points: 1189 |
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yes, at world class level they can loop 10 times in a row without missing so the guy with sp is in disadvantage in some way. but at our level a guy will loop say 4-5 times at most and miss (in his greatest day). with sp he will loop 2-3 times and miss. so you can get up to a VERY good level with only a conservative blocking game. Edited by sa01 - 09/20/2011 at 11:06pm |
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liXiao
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Short Pips are still effective, but most people have abandoned them. Look at Wang Tao and what he was able to accomplish, and look at Jiang and Liu and Chen, they all used short pips, and were some of the best of their generation. because the game has been slowed down so much though with the 40mm ball and the lack of speed glue, short pips are seldom seen.
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sticharo
Super Member Joined: 12/29/2010 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 420 |
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Literally? How would you return a push? Or a ball lower than the net? Obviously my knowledge is limited. But how would you do that safely or aggressively? Nor would you add even a little topspin to a counter drive? I'm truly interested in this. The guy I played wan't a dynamic hitter, he was just solid. Some of his balls did seem to "float" back. Nothing hit with his back hand had much spin....but I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to realize what was going on. Thanks for the info so far...
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sa01
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you probably won't beat ma long or wang hao because of pips but in a club level it can make a difference (if used right). I think it's better to speak about our reality and our table tennis, not about what wang tao or ma long do.... what they play could be considered almost a different sport Edited by sa01 - 09/20/2011 at 11:17pm |
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kenneyy88
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Time pressure, hitting the ball early off the bounce. Speed, Try to hit fast shots.
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sa01
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you can get very good spin but mostly with forehand since you have more time for movement and can get more power. if the other chops or pushes dead you can do a movement that sort of wraps the ball. it is like a loop zang jike style when he returns serve but without the spin he puts in the ball. the ball has good speed and is low. from there on you can start your flat hit/block game making the opponent loop. the typical backhand sp play is simple. you basically act like a wall, move the opponent with good speed returns and hope he misses his loops (which happens more than you think) |
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BH-Man
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There are players of many diverse styles who use SP. A lot of the benefits of using SP have already been discussed, like the ability to hit through spin, the ability to finish with a strong drive or smash, the ability to flat hit, the ability to hit with great power.
Using it to hide weakness is the last reason Korean club players use SP.
One thing not yet discussed in detail is the ability to control the spin. It is way easier to put the brakes on a loop using SP. You can do it in a number of ways, some are very subtle and difficult to determine the ammount of spin returned. Blocking isn't the only option in this, you also have a "roll" and a counter that has less spin on it than it would appear, yet land.
Disruption of timing has been touched upon. that is also a good thing about an SP rubber, especially if the opponent sees only loop/powerloop crazy opponents all the time. To this opponent, changing up the speeds, keeping it short, and countering the ball can really wreck havoc.
Our club No 1 is a J-Pen single sided SP player, and he by coincidence is right about the same size and fast footwork as Ryu Seung Min. He can do just about every trick in the book with SP. He prefers to be a control player who keeps it short, or places it in the place where the attack is about the lowest percentage. If you give him the chance, he will do a warp speed step-around FH and blast a 40 mm hole right through you or your racket that will also leave an exit hole through 3 layers of concrete wall. He can do loop to loop rally from distance, but the spin is tricky, sometimes medium, often lighter than you think. Control by placement and consistancy are his point winners 80% of the time though. This dude is around USATT2300 level minimum.
In our area, the is also a TT club owner (female) who has SP on BH and she is very frustrating to play. She can take any loop off the bounce and give it back to you with a lot of different spins. If you cannot precisely read the spins or setup a finish away from her, you will have a long day. you try pushing the ball back, she can finsih on BH, or step around on FH to pulverize and victimize you. She is too good for the area women, she plays men's div 2 city and is prolly around USATT 2200.
These are two examples of players who use SP and are not "chumps". There are many others with different styles as well.
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BH-Man
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STCHR, OOAK forum has a "Pip Facts" website that migh be an interesting read. Ask Haggisv if you cannot find it.
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BH-Man
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Maybe another GOOD reason to use SP is to be DIFFERENT. Diversity is a good thing and keeps the game fun, avoids routine or boredom, and gives us one more thing to look out for. In the end, we, as in club level players, become all the better fro this diversity.
I am not skilled to use SP, do not posess the motivation for it, nor have an interest in operating it. I say this as someone who desires to grow and suceed using 2x inverted attacking style. However, I value its (SP) existance and appreciate the sport of TT this and other styles that persist. This is a good point that I believe Round Robin advocates often.
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sa01
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I don't think blocking with sp is easier than blocking with inverted. maybe a bit but nothing considerable. if you have problems with block you need to modify your technique. actually it's a bit the other way round, blocking with inverted is slightly easier than with sp. but a loop blocked by your opponent with inverted is the easiest ball you have, you can keep on looping until you win point. Edited by sa01 - 09/21/2011 at 3:53am |
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bbkon
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what pips is that jpen using?
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Speedplay
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Not to add to the confusion here, but I play a lot against short pips and I don't find it any harder to loop against sp blocks then it is to loop against inverted blocks. It is how ever different which is why most people struggle with it, since they are more used to loop against an inverted block.
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The holy grail
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sa01
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it also depends on the type of loops you do. the more spin you put, the harder the next shot is for you. watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_5zlEU_RtM at: 0:50 1:51 2:20 2:29 2:41 2:47 all errors because of he's pips. if they can do that to suss imagine what pips can do to you and me |
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bluebucket
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Beating Suss at almost 50 years of age, not bad: )
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