The good forehand rubber.

ok High_Arc, here it is mine,

High_Arc, and what can you tell us about 1Q?

BaiMile wrote: High_Arc, and what can you tell us about 1Q?

1Q is similar in performance to T64. If you love T64 on the backhand (like me), than you will also love 1Q. There are differences between the two, and I will comment more on that soon.
If you hoped that 1Q would be a T05 replacement: this is certainly not the case. For some it might be an upgrade of T64.

I converted to 25 since I played at the table mostly this year.  Will not be using it in future though because of the price.

sa01 wrote: High_Arc wrote: The topsheets of Grip-S Europe and Shark II are very different. I think that the sponges are different as well, but I do not know for sure. Summarizing: I'm entierly sure that Grip-S Europe is not a rebranded Shark II. so you bought shark II rs and tried it for a while before, right?

Obviously, the difference in the topsheets is independent of me buying and trying it!

The pips of the Shark II topsheet are longer, the Shark II topsheet feels softer overall.
The topsheet of Grip-S Europe on the other hand has very short pips and feels rather hard.

Instead of asking whether Grip-S Europe and Shark II (red sponge) are the same (which is clearly not the case), the more natural question would be whether Grip-S Europe and Whale II (red sponge) are the same. Considering that Grip-S seemed to be identical to Whale II (black sponge) apart from the branding, I think that this is likely.
If anyone can clarify, I would be pleased.

Anyway, Grip-S Europe for me is the best forehand rubber ever! 

sa01 wrote: I see so many inaccurate reviews that I only tend to consider people who use a rubber for a long time.

Fair enough.

To finally answer you question: I have not used Shark II for a long time. Actually I just quickly took the racket of a friend who has this rubber on the forehand of a TB ALC. Again: It is already clear from just looking at it that Grip-S Europe and Shark II are not the same, similar to what you can say by just looking at e.g. T25 and T64.

But like I said, it might be the case that Grip-S Europe and Whale II (red sponge, some particular hardness) are the same.

One further comment: I have used the Grip-S Europe on my forehand for approximately three weeks (maybe 10 sessions including tournaments). You may not consider my impressions because three weeks are not particularly long, but after that amount of time using a new rubber my impressions are in general pretty solid.

Summarizing the characteristics of Grip-S Europe:

-Tacky topsheet (tackiness similar to the H3 Neo)
-Topsheet fels hard and has short pips (inverted). Topsheet is similar (if not equivalent) to Whale II.
-Sponge does not feel very hard when you press the rubber with your finger, but when you play with the rubber feels quite a bit harder than T05, maybe like H3 39 deg.
-Lively sponge as soon as you use some power
-Not bouncy in the short game
-Creates loads of spin
-Very powerful (less fast than T05 when you use little power, quite a bit faster when you go all out)
-Very high throw

If I missed to give some information which is of interest, feel free to ask.

sa01 wrote: I don't find that a good point however (I mean being slow in some shots and very fast when applying more power). as for grip-s, it is beyond my budget limit

Being slow if not applying any power is common to all Chinese rubbers (and Grip-S Europe is at least 50% Chinese from its characteristics, I would say).

It essentially comes from a combination of tackiness and rather hard sponge. The advantage is obvious: It enhances the short game, allows for more spin, while there is still more than enough power for finishing strokes.

I would say Grip-S Europe feels like a rather heavily glued up H3. For my type of game, it has all the advantages of the H3 Neo but is much easier to use. It has most of the advantages of T05 but only few of its disadvantages. It is a H3 Neo / T05 hybrid.

I am really surprised that there are not many European Pro players using it (as far as I know, Samsonov is the only one).

jt99sf wrote: Is the Grip-S Europe lighter than the Tenergy rubbers? How long does the tack last?

I would say the weight is about the same, but I don't know for sure. My racket is 2 gr lighter with Grip-S Europe and 1Q than it would usually be with T05 and T64. Unfortunately I don't know which amount is due to the Grip-S Europe and which due to the 1Q.

I will weight the rubber the next time I take it off. I would say that the tackiness is similar to H3 Neo or BWII. It will hold a ball when brand new, but just pick it up after some usage. My rubber is still mildly tacky after +- 3 weeks.

sa01 wrote: High_Arc wrote: sa01 wrote: I don't find that a good point however (I mean being slow in some shots and very fast when applying more power). as for grip-s, it is beyond my budget limit Being slow if not applying any power is common to all Chinese rubbers (and Grip-S Europe is at least 50% Chinese from its characteristics, I would say). It essentially comes from a combination of tackiness and rather hard sponge. The advantage is obvious: It enhances the short game, allows for more spin, while there is still more than enough power for finishing strokes. I would say Grip-S Europe feels like a rather heavily glued up H3. For my type of game, it has all the advantages of the H3 Neo but is much easier to use. It has most of the advantages of T05 but only few of its disadvantages. It is a H3 Neo / T05 hybrid. I am really surprised that there are not many European Pro players using it (as far as I know, Samsonov is the only one). a glued up/boosted h3 is very fast in passive shots. I used that for long time until a couple of months ago...

This of course depends on your definitions of very fast.

A (non-tacky) European rubber like e.g. T05, Rakza 7 or Akuda S1 is clearly and without any doubt faster and more dynamic than a glued up / boosted (tacky) Chinese rubber if you use little power.

sa01 wrote: wrong again kid. my boosted h3 was definitely faster than a tenergy in passive shots.

I'm not sure why you think this is worth arguing about, because clearly it depends on the type of tuner and the method used.

For example:
With topsheet and sponge tuning, it's possible to make H3 faster than T05 on passive shots, but then you lose some of the goodness of the Chinese Hard/Tacky short game advantage (push/attack over the table)...

It's also possible with just sponge tuning to make H3 to faster AND spinnier than T05 on active shots, while being slower at passive shots...

The reason people rave about tuned H3 is because you can customize it to fit your game, not because H3 + tuner automatically = great.

icontek wrote: I'm not sure why you think this is worth arguing about, because clearly it depends on the type of tuner and the method used. For example: With topsheet and sponge tuning, it's possible to make H3 faster than T05 on passive shots, but then you lose some of the goodness of the Chinese Hard/Tacky short game advantage (push/attack over the table)... It's also possible with just sponge tuning to make H3 to faster AND spinnier than T05 on active shots, while being slower at passive shots... The reason people rave about tuned H3 is because you can customize it to fit your game, not because H3 + tuner automatically = great.

Great input, thanks!

High_Arc wrote: sa01 wrote: High_Arc wrote: sa01 wrote: High_Arc wrote: sa01 wrote: I don't find that a good point however (I mean being slow in some shots and very fast when applying more power). as for grip-s, it is beyond my budget limit Being slow if not applying any power is common to all Chinese rubbers (and Grip-S Europe is at least 50% Chinese from its characteristics, I would say). It essentially comes from a combination of tackiness and rather hard sponge. The advantage is obvious: It enhances the short game, allows for more spin, while there is still more than enough power for finishing strokes. I would say Grip-S Europe feels like a rather heavily glued up H3. For my type of game, it has all the advantages of the H3 Neo but is much easier to use. It has most of the advantages of T05 but only few of its disadvantages. It is a H3 Neo / T05 hybrid. I am really surprised that there are not many European Pro players using it (as far as I know, Samsonov is the only one). a glued up/boosted h3 is very fast in passive shots. I used that for long time until a couple of months ago... This of course depends on your definitions of very fast. A (non-tacky) European rubber like e.g. T05, Rakza 7 or Akuda S1 is clearly and without any doubt faster and more dynamic than a glued up / boosted (tacky) Chinese rubber if you use little power. wrong again kid. my boosted h3 was definitely faster than a tenergy in passive shots. Seems like we have different opinions. I would be interested in what others think. Maybe we do not agree because we talk about different things. I talk about "little power" and "short game" while you talk about "passive shots". In my opinion, "short game" considerably differs from "passive shots". However, in my understanding it is commonly accepted that a Chinese rubber (be it untuned, tuned or glued) requires much more work (force) than a new generation European rubber. In other words, you need to give more in order to get more. Turning it around: You get less if you give less... Simple (undeniable) physical considerations tell you that the tack takes away some of the rebound speed. Taking it to extreme values (e.g. very slow impact speed), the ball does not jump off due to the tack. Correspondingly, the rubber is slower if you use little power. Of course I could be wrong... On the other hand it follows from very basic physical considerations on tacky rubbers. But again, I would really like to know what others think. By the way, I'm not a kid. Don't know where you got this idea.

all your analysis is very deep, interesting, complex, insightful....
my analysis is simple: when I tuned h3 neo (I used 1 layer of oil and speed glue to attach) the rubber was faster than tenergy in every shot for 3 weeks.
"little power" "big power" "short game" "long game" "passive shot" "yellow submarine" whatever....
simple as that.

High_Arc wrote: sa01 wrote: all your analysis is very deep, interesting, complex, insightful.... my analysis is simple: when I tuned h3 neo (I used 1 layer of oil and speed glue to attach) the rubber was faster than tenergy in every shot for 3 weeks. "little power" "big power" "short game" "long game" "passive shot" "yellow submarine" whatever.... simple as that. fair enough. and thanks for honoring my analysis !

I was being sarcastic kid....
I have a problem dealing with people who try to make table tennis look like something complex when it is the simplest sport in the world.

High_Arc wrote: sa01 wrote: I was being sarcastic kid.... I have a problem dealing with people who try to make table tennis look like something complex when it is the simplest sport in the world. I'm wondering which part of "I'm not a kid." you failed to understand. Let's just leave it as it is. We do not need to agree.