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    Posted: 05/18/2012 at 7:00pm
Onyx Sinister , with carbon outers
ULTRA Blue Streak
Ramin Cross, an updated Fiddler
All Around, improved and still $35

Edit: added a second third fourth new blade.


Edited by arg0 - 05/21/2012 at 2:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 12:01am
I have tried several of Charlie's prototype blades with carbon outer plies and I think this is one of them.  It takes a little getting used to due to really hard outer carbon plies.  However, once you get used to it, it offers some very interesting possibilities.  It makes the overall bat not especially sensitive to incoming spin, so service return is a little easier and you do not have change things around too much when blocking.  However, on longer strokes, it allows the rubber to make quite a bit of spin of its own.

The blade Charlie ultimately made for me has some of the similar characteristics although the construction is a little different.  Now that I am used to it, it is an absolute joy to play with.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:10pm
Ultra Blue Streak looks very interesting. I am not sure if I need an OFF+/OFF blade... I guess I'd rather have an OFF/OFF- one but this is something worth trying out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Carryboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/19/2012 at 2:13pm
Jimt is this blade on BBc website???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2012 at 10:50am
There are actually four new BBC blades that were just added to their website:

ULTRA Blue Streak
ONYX Synister
Ramin Cross
All Around

Edited by nathanso - 05/20/2012 at 10:51am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2012 at 5:43pm
Indeed, it looks like Charlie is adding new blades every day.
Today he replaced Fiddler with Ramin Cross.
BTW, the All Around was already there, he just changed the text.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/20/2012 at 11:27pm
Originally posted by arg0 arg0 wrote:

BTW, the All Around was already there, he just changed the text.
The wood plys are completely different. The new AA is a much higher performance blade than the old African Cherry-based blade. If you can't see the Specs grid using IE8 or IE9, try Chrome or Firefox. I'm adjusting the website so it will work in the IE's as well.

Edited by nathanso - 05/20/2012 at 11:27pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 1:08pm
Onyx looks really sinister... Wink

Is that the first blade ever with carbon layer as an outer? does the glue hold the rubbers well on such a surface?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 1:19pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Onyx looks really sinister... Wink

Is that the first blade ever with carbon layer as an outer? does the glue hold the rubbers well on such a surface?

Carbon fiber has enough texture to it that I saw no problems with rubbers peeling off.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 4:49pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Is that the first blade ever with carbon layer as an outer?


Probably because carbon fibre is only legal within the blade to reinforce the glue layer!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Is that the first blade ever with carbon layer as an outer?


Probably because carbon fibre is only legal within the blade to reinforce the glue layer!

That is what I always thought, but apparently there is no rule that says that the carbon layers can not be on the outside od the blade.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:00pm
Originally posted by Liquid Sky Liquid Sky wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Is that the first blade ever with carbon layer as an outer?


Probably because carbon fibre is only legal within the blade to reinforce the glue layer!


There are no ITTF rules that say that non-wood layers must be inside the blade.

Generally the synthetic fiber layers are not outers because they are very thin and therefore quite vulnerable to the small dents and scratches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Liquid Sky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/hb.asp?s_number=2 http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/hb.asp?s_number=2 wrote:

2.04.02  At least 85% of the blade by thickness shall be of natural wood; an adhesive layer within the blade may be reinforced with fibrous material such as carbon fibre, glass fibre or compressed paper, but shall not be thicker than 7.5% of the total thickness or 0.35mm, whichever is the smaller.


For me the ittf rule no 2.04.02 clearly says, what i just wrote in my previous post.
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:28pm
Somewhere I got the impression that this ITTF rule was why Bttfly had to stop selling their Kreanga Tamca carbon, which was basically the same as the Ishlion except it had some sort of strange silver paint on the blade surface.  I am not sure, though, where I heard that.  Maybe it is an urban legend?  (The thing was unplayable).

Edited by Baal - 05/21/2012 at 5:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 5:38pm
Rule 2.04.02 says adhesive can be reinforced, it does not say anything about outer layers, so the rule alone is not sufficient. However, according to Technical Leaflet T4
Originally posted by Technical Leaflet T4, page 4, section A, 1.1 Technical Leaflet T4, page 4, section A, 1.1 wrote:

A very thin layer of lacquer is permitted on the blade, only for the purpose of anchoring wood fibers, thereby facilitating replacement of the covering. Anything more than this will be deemed to constitute a layer of plastic, and will not be permitted. This layer may be no more than 0.1 mm thick, and should not hide the wood from sight or touch. It is considered to be part of the blade, rather than part of the thickness of the covering.

So the ITTF understands rule 2.04.02 as indirectly requiring the outer layers to be wood, although this is not explicitly written.


Edited by arg0 - 05/21/2012 at 5:41pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/21/2012 at 7:15pm
Originally posted by arg0 arg0 wrote:

Rule 2.04.02 says adhesive can be reinforced, it does not say anything about outer layers, so the rule alone is not sufficient. However, according to Technical Leaflet T4
Originally posted by Technical Leaflet T4, page 4, section A, 1.1 Technical Leaflet T4, page 4, section A, 1.1 wrote:

A very thin layer of lacquer is permitted on the blade, only for the purpose of anchoring wood fibers, thereby facilitating replacement of the covering. Anything more than this will be deemed to constitute a layer of plastic, and will not be permitted. This layer may be no more than 0.1 mm thick, and should not hide the wood from sight or touch. It is considered to be part of the blade, rather than part of the thickness of the covering.

So the ITTF understands rule 2.04.02 as indirectly requiring the outer layers to be wood, although this is not explicitly written.


I haven't read that before. That seems to imply that outer carbon layer is prohibited. However it can be taken as being applicable ONLY to the lacquer finish.

Also this is not the law but its interpretation. I am not sure if T4 has to be considered absolute when an umpire is supposed to rule on whether Onyx is a legal blade or not.

I think Charlie should consult umpire Pavol Kovac from Stump-the-Ump on USATT site.

http://www.usatt.org/rules/stumpump/index.shtml
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iamwardicus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 7:00am
What happened to the Carboflex Alpha? :-p
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:01pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:


I haven't read that before. That seems to imply that outer carbon layer is prohibited. However it can be taken as being applicable ONLY to the lacquer finish.

Also this is not the law but its interpretation. I am not sure if T4 has to be considered absolute when an umpire is supposed to rule on whether Onyx is a legal blade or not.

I think Charlie should consult umpire Pavol Kovac from Stump-the-Ump on USATT site.

http://www.usatt.org/rules/stumpump/index.shtml

Good advice, I'd also like some light to be shed on the issue.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:02pm
Originally posted by iamwardicus iamwardicus wrote:

What happened to the Carboflex Alpha? :-p

Yes, removed temporarily as the photos I had no longer matched the CFA's new outer skins which are no longer Birch. CW needs to get it (and one or two other new blades) re-shot at the photographer's studio.. hopefully soon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:11pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

I think Charlie should consult umpire Pavol Kovac from Stump-the-Ump on USATT site.http://www.usatt.org/rules/stumpump/index.shtml
Pavol Kovac doesn't appear to have made an entry on that page in over six years. CW recently told me that the ONYX was shown on different occasions to five USATT umpires in the Los Angeles area and each said it was legal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:30pm
Doesn't mean they know the rules, sadly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:35pm
Baal, this is the whole point of discussion: as far as I could read, the rules alone do not explicitly prohibit non-wood outers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by nathanso nathanso wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

I think Charlie should consult umpire Pavol Kovac from Stump-the-Ump on USATT site.http://www.usatt.org/rules/stumpump/index.shtml
Pavol Kovac doesn't appear to have made an entry on that page in over six years. CW recently told me that the ONYX was shown on different occasions to five USATT umpires in the Los Angeles area and each said it was legal.


True - but when I posted a question there, he contacted me immediately the very next day - so his email works and he is watching the website.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nathanso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 6:38pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

True - but when I posted a question there, he contacted me immediately the very next day - so his email works and he is watching the website.
OK, I just emailed him. If he replies I'll post it here (with his permission.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by arg0 arg0 wrote:

Baal, this is the whole point of discussion: as far as I could read, the rules alone do not explicitly prohibit non-wood outers.


My point is that it seems not to be a controversial issue at all and not really worth discussing at length -- not if you actually read the relevant documents, not just rules, but more recent technical leaflets.  The ITTF Technical Leafet 4   was issued by ITTF for the following purpose, as stated in its introduction:  "This leaflet sets out the current Laws and Regulations, defines some of the terms used and lists some additional criteria for ITTF authorisation of racket coverings and thereafter entering the List of Authorised Racket Coverings (LARC)."

In other words, it's purpose is to clarify some points that may have not been entirely clear in the original wording laid out in The Laws of Table Tennis and the Regulations for International Competitions.  It is an amendment to these rules.  Technical Leaflet states "A very thin layer of lacquer is permitted on the blade, only for the purpose of anchoring wood fibers, thereby facilitating replacement of the racket covering. Anything more than this will be deemed to constitute a layer of plastic, and will not be permitted. This layer may be no more than 0.1 mm thick, and should not hide the wood from sight or touch.'  [emphasis added].

I don't know how thick the carbon layer is on the outside of Charlie's blade, but one thing that is obvious from the picture of the blade is that this external carbon layer hides the wood from sight.  And the wood has to be visible and its grain should be palpable.  Also, carbon is not lacquer.  Also, it seems clear that the purpose of this layer is not simply to protect the wood, but it gives it an unusual playing style, which was noted by people reviewing the blade.

Therefore, based on current ITTF official documents, these blades are illegal.  The fact that some referees in California may not have known about this technical leaflet does not make the blades legal.  There is no ambiguity in this.   

You can find this leaflet here:  http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T4_Racket%20Coverings_BoD2011.pdf 


Edited by Baal - 05/22/2012 at 11:22pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/22/2012 at 11:36pm
If you search Kreanga Carbon blade here at MyTT you will find several threads about the Kreanga Carbon blade being banned for violating this same rule.  Butterfly in Korea actually gave refunds to people who had purchased that blade.  I'm not sure what Butterfly USA ever did about that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arg0 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 1:47am
Baal,
hope you didn't take the comment personally. I just intended to point at what is imo a shortcoming of the ITTF rules, taken in isolation, in that they indeed to not require the outer layers to be made of wood. Maybe you had noticed that I pointed to the same passage of technical leaflet T4 in my post above. However, as many players are likely not aware of the T4, doubt arises.

Are these ITTF leaflets "legally" binding? If so, I am very surprised that umpires may not be aware of them. But then again I don't know the USATT. Maybe they have their own rules and are not bound by the ITTF. Or maybe they're just bound by the ITTF rules and not by the content of other material such as technical leaflets. Anyone can shed some light?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote emihet Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 2:53am
and i was trying to get ready of some blades... and now i am waiting for a few more blades from Charlie
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:07am
Originally posted by arg0 arg0 wrote:

Baal,
hope you didn't take the comment personally. I just intended to point at what is imo a shortcoming of the ITTF rules, taken in isolation, in that they indeed to not require the outer layers to be made of wood. Maybe you had noticed that I pointed to the same passage of technical leaflet T4 in my post above. However, as many players are likely not aware of the T4, doubt arises.

Are these ITTF leaflets "legally" binding? If so, I am very surprised that umpires may not be aware of them. But then again I don't know the USATT. Maybe they have their own rules and are not bound by the ITTF. Or maybe they're just bound by the ITTF rules and not by the content of other material such as technical leaflets. Anyone can shed some light?


arg0

No, I certainly didn't take it personally, not at all.  The rules in the leaflet are binding from the ITTF point of view.  I completely agree that their writing is often opaque.  I also suspect that their leadership is corrupt, but that is another discussion.  I am not entirely surprised that some umpires would not know this, it would rarely arise.  I had to go look it up, and I did remember that Butterfly had to ditch their Kreanga Carbon blade for the same reason.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/23/2012 at 11:39am
Originally posted by arg0 arg0 wrote:

Baal,
hope you didn't take the comment personally. I just intended to point at what is imo a shortcoming of the ITTF rules, taken in isolation, in that they indeed to not require the outer layers to be made of wood. Maybe you had noticed that I pointed to the same passage of technical leaflet T4 in my post above. However, as many players are likely not aware of the T4, doubt arises.

Are these ITTF leaflets "legally" binding? If so, I am very surprised that umpires may not be aware of them. But then again I don't know the USATT. Maybe they have their own rules and are not bound by the ITTF. Or maybe they're just bound by the ITTF rules and not by the content of other material such as technical leaflets. Anyone can shed some light?


Is there an actual ITTF rule (or anything which was voted on by ITTF General Assembly) which states that the technical leaflets are "the law"?

I understand the need for technical interpretation of some of the less obvious rules - therefore the need for TLs, but how exactly they are binding if they are not voted on?

A bunch of bureaucrats and technical people write them (based on some technical ideas I hope) but then what? do these texts become laws by default? how?

That would be a good question for Pavol Kovac as well.
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