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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pgpg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2015 at 7:39pm
His rating is 2629 , not sure how accurate it is though. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2015 at 8:18pm
Holy cow! I was thinking I underrated him by 100.

I suck at rating after 2000. I always underrate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2015 at 8:25pm
David Zhuang has a bunch of national titles and has played in the Olympics 3 times.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2015 at 10:51pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

Holy cow! I was thinking I underrated him by 100.

I suck at rating after 2000. I always underrate.



No you don't. Some of the higher level elements of a player are only seen against the right level of opposition. It takes a high level looper to bring out David's true hitting and blocking game. He also doesn't train anymore. The 2200 guys in our league often looked like me. The only guy who actually had good rallies was David's student, but even that didn't last after the first game.

Playing him close, you would have seen his level. You also haven't watched enough matches of me to appreciate mine. You have seen me play hitters but not loopers or pips players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2015 at 10:58pm
I think david has won nationals singles 6 times

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/24/2015 at 11:01pm
Originally posted by in2spin in2spin wrote:

I think david has won nationals singles 6 times

:)

I didn't realize it was that dz.  I thought that guy spelled it zhang and looked a lot different back then, of course.

But yeah, I think I saw him lose in the finals of nationals vs chen.  DZ took like a controversial injury timeout and played up a knee thing.

It crossed my mind it was that dz, but I didn't think it was.  Yeah he was 2667 back in the day no doubt.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ghostzen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/25/2015 at 7:23am
Nice to get to play people at that level NL. The gulf in standard is massive but the best thing is that both players seem to be enjoying the match and thats the important bit.

We are lucky enough to have a guy at one of the clubs I play at who was about 2800 in his day who coaches and plays practise matches against us if we are lucky.

The thing that I always find is ...he will win thats not an issue but it's enjoyable and I won't say close but there are points and you feel in the game like he wants to push you.

Great experience to play someone of that level..lucky bugger! Smile 

BTW what did you take from the match? 




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2015 at 2:09am
Ghostzen, I am beginning more and more to get into the play recognition side of the game as I think my rally strokes are getting close to being as good as they can be. What amazes me when I play the people over 2300 is how slow I tend to look on basic plays in the serve and serve return game. It's almost like I can never anticipate what is coming the way I usually do at my level. When I do, I don't look out of place but when I don't, it gets ugly fast.

That's the part of my game that needs the most work - understanding how higher level players think and how to restrict their options into something I can manage. I am much better now at containing 2200 players in the serve and serve return game and that will get better with time and experience, as I still have a lot to work on.

What this match showed me was that basically, there is no way I can prevent someone good enough from attacking successfully with my current serve repertoire. I need more pendulum stuff to make people hesitate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vanjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09/26/2015 at 8:02am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Ghostzen, I am beginning more and more to get into the play recognition side of the game as I think my rally strokes are getting close to being as good as they can be. What amazes me when I play the people over 2300 is how slow I tend to look on basic plays in the serve and serve return game. It's almost like I can never anticipate what is coming the way I usually do at my level. When I do, I don't look out of place but when I don't, it gets ugly fast.

That's the part of my game that needs the most work - understanding how higher level players think and how to restrict their options into something I can manage. I am much better now at containing 2200 players in the serve and serve return game and that will get better with time and experience, as I still have a lot to work on.

What this match showed me was that basically, there is no way I can prevent someone good enough from attacking successfully with my current serve repertoire. I need more pendulum stuff to make people hesitate.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tt-panopticum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/01/2015 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by vanjr vanjr wrote:


Learn the tomahawk!ClapClapClap

Hi,
that's most likely not a good idea for a tall guy with problems to bend the knees too much Wink

If I'm not mistaken DZ is playing short pips FH - plus, he's twiddling to his BH Rubber for later, spinny loops occasionally - combined with the fact that he's PH, that's probably one of the most demanding combo's to catch him with serves. 

One must be really good with serves - with a large variety - that's the only chance. 

Best regards!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2015 at 1:54pm
Part Deux!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2015 at 2:02pm
Holy crap, NL.  What did you eat before that match?

Amazing job.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2015 at 2:14pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Holy crap, NL.  What did you eat before that match?

Amazing job.

Thanks.  I don't know who was orchestrating my forehand yesterday - I had an out-of-body experience yesterday for a while.  I came back to earth later in the day, but still, I played 2200 level table tennis for 3 matches in a row.  Gives me hope for the future that it can happen again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote big d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/04/2015 at 6:32pm
NextLevel was playing at next level yesterday. It was great to c him amd get coached by him
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote the_theologian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 12:01pm
NL,

First of all, you had some great shots/points in that match. Nice.

On a technical note, does anyone ever challenge the legality of your bh serve toss? Each time I watch you play it jumps out at me as not being legal. I've attached some screenshots.







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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 12:10pm
For actual opponents (as opposed to people looking at me from the side or on the internet,) one person has during a league match last year, but I have served around a few umpires since I was 1200 and that has been my main serve for a while, so I know I didn't start tossing like that yesterday.

I might look into cleaning it up but it's an unconscious habit and those are the worst.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 12:15pm
I have a habit of raising the ball and dropping it as much as tossing it up.  Hard to tell where the ball actually leaves my palm.  I've never had a complaint, probably I start my toss motion pretty high and it falls a foot or so before I hit it anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 12:20pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

I have a habit of raising the ball and dropping it as much as tossing it up.  Hard to tell where the ball actually leaves my palm.  I've never had a complaint, probably I start my toss motion pretty high and it falls a foot or so before I hit it anyway.

If you face my serve, as a right hander, you will see that my motion is a weird attempt to get my hand out of the way while tossing the ball.  But it comes across on camera very differently because I don't pull it away far enough.  But I will work on fixing it anyways - I want to revisit serving again and it might be a chance to develop a new serve.  I will probably stand less square to the table so that I don't have to move my hand anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JimT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

For actual opponents (as opposed to people looking at me from the side or on the internet,) one person has during a league match last year, but I have served around a few umpires since I was 1200 and that has been my main serve for a while, so I know I didn't start tossing like that yesterday.

I might look into cleaning it up but it's an unconscious habit and those are the worst.


I am not sure why theologian thinks it's not legal. Not enough vertical distance? The fact that the gap between the ball and the palm is not very large has nothing to do with legality. The ball has to rise 6 inches not from the palm (!) but from the point of toss (where it has lost contact with the palm).

Some umpires use that gap as their guide to determine the height of the toss but that is wrong. Only if the gap is more than 6in you can use that to say that the toss was legal. You cannot use that gap  to determine illegality.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 1:12pm
so you don't actually have to project the ball upwards 15cm from the palm?  It just has to be 15cm from the palm at some point before contact?

Nevermind, I just re-read and understand exactly what you said.  I'm going to leave this here though, because I think it's an interesting technicality.


Edited by cole_ely - 11/05/2015 at 1:14pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote in2spin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 1:18pm
on the fegerl thread (omg)

i posted:

watching the fzd eugene match...seems like fzd really does toss it, whereas eugene at times "doesn't truly toss it, but raises his hand and releases the ball..."

it's in the same realm

please, please, please this is not an attack in any way shape or form.....just a FRIENDLY observation

:)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 1:32pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:



I am not sure why theologian thinks it's not legal. Not enough vertical distance? The fact that the gap between the ball and the palm is not very large has nothing to do with legality. The ball has to rise 6 inches not from the palm (!) but from the point of toss (where it has lost contact with the palm).

Some umpires use that gap as their guide to determine the height of the toss but that is wrong. Only if the gap is more than 6in you can use that to say that the toss was legal. You cannot use that gap  to determine illegality.

I agree with you. However, some umpires do not. This article on Larry Hodges' blog may interest you:


Edit: Whoops, Jim already said that some umpires disagree with him and they are wrong.  I don't read good. Anyways, the link is there if anyone is interested in this "debate".




Edited by Ringer84 - 11/05/2015 at 1:50pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 2:03pm
Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

For actual opponents (as opposed to people looking at me from the side or on the internet,) one person has during a league match last year, but I have served around a few umpires since I was 1200 and that has been my main serve for a while, so I know I didn't start tossing like that yesterday.

I might look into cleaning it up but it's an unconscious habit and those are the worst.


I am not sure why theologian thinks it's not legal. Not enough vertical distance? The fact that the gap between the ball and the palm is not very large has nothing to do with legality. The ball has to rise 6 inches not from the palm (!) but from the point of toss (where it has lost contact with the palm).

Some umpires use that gap as their guide to determine the height of the toss but that is wrong. Only if the gap is more than 6in you can use that to say that the toss was legal. You cannot use that gap  to determine illegality.
I do BH serve like that too sometimes, if I don't pay attention, so I am guilty of that myself LOL. And NO, it's not legal, the toss is short, the ball and hand separation may be longer than 6", but is due more from dropping the hand than tossing the ball, and it make it hard for the opponent to time when you are going to strike the ball.  NL serve is not vicious, so usually he will not get call, but imagine fast serve, or down the line serve tossing like that...  NL obviously has no intention to serve illegal, as his game is not based on serve, or 3rd ball attack, he's just want to engage in the rally, and win with it, but it does not make the serve OK.  As said, I am guilty of that myself, now a day, I rarely serve BH, and when to do, I try to pay close attention to the toss.
 
BTW - Ma Long BH serve is very clean.  It should be a model to learn from.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 2:21pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

For actual opponents (as opposed to people looking at me from the side or on the internet,) one person has during a league match last year, but I have served around a few umpires since I was 1200 and that has been my main serve for a while, so I know I didn't start tossing like that yesterday.

I might look into cleaning it up but it's an unconscious habit and those are the worst.


I am not sure why theologian thinks it's not legal. Not enough vertical distance? The fact that the gap between the ball and the palm is not very large has nothing to do with legality. The ball has to rise 6 inches not from the palm (!) but from the point of toss (where it has lost contact with the palm).

Some umpires use that gap as their guide to determine the height of the toss but that is wrong. Only if the gap is more than 6in you can use that to say that the toss was legal. You cannot use that gap  to determine illegality.
I do BH serve like that too sometimes, if I don't pay attention, so I am guilty of that myself LOL. And NO, it's not legal, the toss is short, the ball and hand separation may be longer than 6", but is due more from dropping the hand than tossing the ball, and it make it hard for the opponent to time when you are going to strike the ball.  NL serve is not vicious, so usually he will not get call, but imagine fast serve, or down the line serve tossing like that...  NL obviously has no intention to serve illegal, as his game is not based on serve, or 3rd ball attack, he's just want to engage in the rally, and win with it, but it does not make the serve OK.  As said, I am guilty of that myself, now a day, I rarely serve BH, and when to do, I try to pay close attention to the toss.
 
BTW - Ma Long BH serve is very clean.  It should be a model to learn from.
 

And you discerned this by watching the actual serve or by watching the photos?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Ringer84 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 2:28pm
Due to the camera angle and the way that NL has his palm, it is a bit difficult to tell the exact moment at which he releases the ball.  So that makes it a bit difficult to determine the legality of his serve. I have a feeling that if we viewed his serve from the side, we would see that the ball is being released from his hand earlier than it appears from this angle and this is clearly a 6" toss.

A 6" toss is extremely small.  Take a ball, stand next to the net, and toss it making sure that you release at the very bottom of the net assembly.  You'll see what I mean.


Edited by Ringer84 - 11/05/2015 at 2:29pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 2:31pm
Originally posted by Ringer84 Ringer84 wrote:

Due to the camera angle and the way that NL has his palm, it is a bit difficult to tell the exact moment at which he releases the ball.  So that makes it a bit difficult to determine the legality of his serve. I have a feeling that if we viewed his serve from the side, we would see that the ball is being released from his hand earlier than it appears from this angle and this is clearly a 6" toss.

A 6" toss is extremely small.  Take a ball, stand next to the net, and toss it making sure that you release at the very bottom of the net assembly.  You'll see what I mean.

The simplest way to see the toss is legal if height is the issue is to compare it to my forehand pendulum serve toss.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 2:46pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Originally posted by JimT JimT wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

For actual opponents (as opposed to people looking at me from the side or on the internet,) one person has during a league match last year, but I have served around a few umpires since I was 1200 and that has been my main serve for a while, so I know I didn't start tossing like that yesterday.

I might look into cleaning it up but it's an unconscious habit and those are the worst.


I am not sure why theologian thinks it's not legal. Not enough vertical distance? The fact that the gap between the ball and the palm is not very large has nothing to do with legality. The ball has to rise 6 inches not from the palm (!) but from the point of toss (where it has lost contact with the palm).

Some umpires use that gap as their guide to determine the height of the toss but that is wrong. Only if the gap is more than 6in you can use that to say that the toss was legal. You cannot use that gap  to determine illegality.
I do BH serve like that too sometimes, if I don't pay attention, so I am guilty of that myself LOL. And NO, it's not legal, the toss is short, the ball and hand separation may be longer than 6", but is due more from dropping the hand than tossing the ball, and it make it hard for the opponent to time when you are going to strike the ball.  NL serve is not vicious, so usually he will not get call, but imagine fast serve, or down the line serve tossing like that...  NL obviously has no intention to serve illegal, as his game is not based on serve, or 3rd ball attack, he's just want to engage in the rally, and win with it, but it does not make the serve OK.  As said, I am guilty of that myself, now a day, I rarely serve BH, and when to do, I try to pay close attention to the toss.
 
BTW - Ma Long BH serve is very clean.  It should be a model to learn from.
 

And you discerned this by watching the actual serve or by watching the photos?
Video.  Not hard to see, as all services are virtually the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Video.  Not hard to see, as all services are virtually the same.

So you are objecting to my forehand toss as well? IT's pretty obvious that the toss is more than 6 inches.  6 inches is the height of the net post and the ball leaves my hand and my hand then does a motion to exit the scene but doesn't.

In any case, it doesn't matter.  I have not been called on it, but if it will cause doubt in some minds, I really shouldn't wait until I am to work it out.

IT would really be interesting to see that toss that you say is the same thing as mine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 5:14pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by mhnh007 mhnh007 wrote:

Video.  Not hard to see, as all services are virtually the same.

So you are objecting to my forehand toss as well? IT's pretty obvious that the toss is more than 6 inches.  6 inches is the height of the net post and the ball leaves my hand and my hand then does a motion to exit the scene but doesn't.

In any case, it doesn't matter.  I have not been called on it, but if it will cause doubt in some minds, I really shouldn't wait until I am to work it out.

IT would really be interesting to see that toss that you say is the same thing as mine.

You might have a problem with the throw height NL, but the serve is as clean as it gets so to me, this discussion is academic. I wouldn't change a thing, unless you have some sort of a weird fetish for following the rules in their most strict sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CroNone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/05/2015 at 10:23pm
A bit of a side question - 

What is your opinion on the best camera position to record games? I've tried a few just above the table (about 1-2 feet above) and some side on above table with my GoPro but not convinced they are the best.

Ideally if I could get it really high up it would be great. Might look into a super long vertical selfie stick ;)

*Just answered my own question. Something like this would be great if I can stabilize it to a base...

http://www.killershot.com/killershot-goelevation-10/ 


*Even better - self standing monopod.

http://www.amazon.com/Manfrotto-682B-Standing-Monopod-Black/dp/B000186QGI


Edited by CroNone - 11/05/2015 at 10:37pm
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