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Grip Switching |
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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Posted: 03/24/2013 at 3:16pm |
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I was reading something and the term Grip Switching came up. As a developing player, I had no clues as to what it was and looked up some videos and have gained understanding of it what it is. My question is is it a good skill to try and emulate when you are developing your game or is it a strict no no. Also any tips and advice on the same will be appreciated !
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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if you're a penhold player, mastering your grip (inclusive of grip switching, change in finger positions, etc...) is crucial to playing well.
if you're a shakehand player, I would advise you to get either a neutral grip or a BH dominated grip, and don't change too much when you're playing (as there's always a time penalty for doing so, makes you a slower player), it may feel weird but it's beneficial to your long term development, there's a reason why standards are standards. Personally I have adopted the BH dominant grip, and only switch the position of my thumb when playing FHs. My FH naturally hooks a bit which actually makes it slightly more difficult to block for my opponent.
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viva
Silver Member Joined: 02/17/2011 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 645 |
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I play shakehand, what do you mean by a neutral or a BH dominated grip ? Can anyone post pictures or draw something so I get what it actually means?
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2332 |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSco3QBTiFY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Zq-OHCNx7o http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKVdSGCNr7I Basically, the BH grip tends have the thumb further up the bat face.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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When I am close to the table I use neutral grip.
If I am away from the table - I use forehand grip for forehands and backhand grip for backhands. As blahness suggested start with the neutral grip and then once you are comfortable with the basics - try the other grips.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Jorgen Persson's grip (or something like it) was recommended to me once. Would be nice if Persson had something somewhere discussing its advantages and disadvantages.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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racquetsforsale
Gold Member Joined: 10/02/2010 Location: at the table Status: Offline Points: 1268 |
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Grip-switching is fine. Preferably not too heavy. Don't shy away from it. Get use to it as soon as possible. With practice, you'll feel it's just a matter of relaxing your grip and regripping. It should be an integral part of your backswing on both sides anyways. If you always feel you don't have enough time to switch grips, chances are you're not reacting quick enough to set up and hit a good shot anyways. Use the tip of the V between your thumb and index finger as a reference point. The more it is turned towards the FH side, the more BH-oriented your grip is. The more it is turned towards the BH side, the more FH-oriented your grip is.
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Grip switching is not necessary to achieve a high level of play but it can be beneficial at lower levels of play if your willing to commit to the time and effort to learn it. It took my training partner about two months to get it working for him. His play level dipped for those two months but now it is higher than when he started because he has more versatility on his forehand(he is BH dominant player). He also switches back to a BH biased grip on the FH when he hits a heavy side spin loop.
There are certain shots that cannot be easily executed without being in these two different grips. For example the BH flip or banana flip is much easier to execute with a BH biased grip. Likewise the FH flick and the FH short push cannot really be done easily if you have a deep BH biased grip. You can try this yourself. Hold a deep BH biased like ZJK then have someone serve no spin short to the FH and try to flick it. Do the same thing with underspin and try to short push. Really hard to do because your wrist can't bend backward at all. Now switch to a neutral or FH biased grip and the problem goes a way and you flick or push with relative ease. I am not saying you can't flip, flick, or push from any grip just that it is easier in certain grips. There pros that do not switch so, again, it is not necessary to achieve a high level. But those at the highest level do it. Example: He is executing the push in a neutral grip. Notice how his wrist bend backwards, He could not do that with a BH biased grip. And here is an example of grip switching by ZJK. The flip and BH are in BH biased grip, then he switches to the neutral grip as he takes the paddle back for the FH. Here is an interesting example. In the first exchanges in this vid WLQ hits a BH then there is a quick drive to his FH. He does not have time to switch his grip so the initial block is with his BH grip, then you can see him adjust to the neutral grip for the next FH. |
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Pingvinis
Super Member Joined: 02/16/2013 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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Just use a relaxed neutral grip, don't overthink it, and before you know it your index finger+thumb will make adjustments without you having to worry about it.
Basically your fingers will start helping your wrist make changes to the racket angle. but you need to relax your grip for this to happen.
Edited by Pingvinis - 03/25/2013 at 7:28am |
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Pingvinis
Super Member Joined: 02/16/2013 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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Really? Interesting, do you have extra strong wrists? I haven't seen any interview where he talks about it, but you get a lot of back-and-forth wrist freedom and he does use his wrist a lot to whip and swat the ball. Anyway I think Persson's grip is a good example of "just because a world champion player is doing something, it doesn't mean it's the right technique or style for me, my hand shape, my body and my 9 hr/week training schedule." (But maybe it is for you, NextLevel.)
Edited by Pingvinis - 03/25/2013 at 8:21am |
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LHB
Member Joined: 10/01/2012 Status: Offline Points: 42 |
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One thing I love about small grip adjustment between forehand and backhand ,and that is somewhat of a side effect, is the fact that it obliges you to relax your hand in between shots. I think most of amateurs like us have problems getting a little too tense when we play. Grip switching allowed me to purposely and actively try to relax my hand between hits to be able to do those slight adjustments.
In the wang liqin video that v-gripper linked you can clearly see it, and I think that helped my game just as much as the grip switching itself.
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Sort of in the same lines, I wouldn't recommend ANYONE to copy the grip of Magnus Månsson, even if it works for him. For those who don't know about him, he is a Swedish player in the top division here, with a rather unconventional grip. When I first saw him play, during warm up, I was certain he was only mocking around, but he wasn't, that was actually the grip he uses to play with. He is the guy in black jersey in this clip; Magnus Månsson When it comes to grip switches, do what ever comes natural to you. I change my grip, but it's not something I think about doing. Can't even remember ever having been caught with the "wrong" grip. |
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The holy grail
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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I don't know about extra strong, but decently strong, yes. The grip allows you to engage your wrists powerfully, almost in some ways similar to the penhold grip where the racket is an extension of your arm. Makes lifting underspin a breeze and you can flick and hit the ball as hard as you want. Since I wouldn't tell someone not to use the penhold grip on the basis of the strength of his wrists, but would recommend it because it engages the wrists more, I think you have this a bit backwards. My only concern was with grip pressure. I know a coach who played with the grip so I could actually learn about it. Biases against grips are mostly not just about practice time, but about whether your coach can teach you the nuances of playing with the grip.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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That's a very conventional low shakehands grip, it just much lower than most people would use if they want more "control" but the extra length gives torque and spin. Tahl Leibovitz of the US plays with something very similar. Again, grips are usually about coaching and results (if you win with it, no one cares), rather than being really better or worse. If you use an unconventional grip, you have to work out the nuances yourself. That is the real challenge.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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the thing is that you guys talking about "grip switching" may be misinterpreted by new players. To me grip switching is a very natural thing done by the fingers turning the blade inwards, or relaxing to let it turn outwards (for switching to the FH angle), it will be developed naturally if you have a relaxed grip, changing it like how Timo does is very hard for most people. Moving your thumb downwards for FHs and upwards for BHs. I always believe it's best to have a mostly unchanged grip (with only very minor and natural changes) to enable you to reduce the time required to start up and execute the stroke.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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Pingvinis
Super Member Joined: 02/16/2013 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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To the thread starter: sorry for this digression, but you know how internet forums are ...
Good points Reason I asked if you had strong wrists (I should have asked if you use the wrist a lot when you hit the ball) is people usually recommend this kind of thing based on your strengths as a player. Btw maybe that's just my wrist but I don't find that the Persson grip gives as much up-down freedom as a penhold grip, even with a thin Nittaku ST handle. But it seems to allow more power in the back-and-forward movement.
Edited by Pingvinis - 03/25/2013 at 10:44am |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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I know it's a regular shakehand grip, but as it is so extremely low, I wouldn't call it very conventional. Not even conventional at all, at least not here. He is, to my knowledge, the only high level player in Sweden who uses such a low grip. My point was, for him, it's a natural grip, that works, but I wouldn't recommend ANYONE to try that grip for starters. All grips have pro's and cons, I suppose, but there is a reason why some grips are used more then others. |
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The holy grail
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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It actually does give almost as much freedom in the up-down axes. But the real point is that if you straighten your arm out, blade is a straight extension of the arm and you can loop underspin pretty similarly to a penholder. Now I think about it, the grip is similar to a low shakehands grip, but with a slightly different finger placement which allows for extra power in the wrist axis. The The penhold allows more finger use in grip pressure like the high shakehands grip and also has more multidimensional flexibility. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
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Yes, you are right - grip switching is about whether you hit the forehand and the backhand with the same grip. I think you are overstating the case for small differences between the FH and BH grip, IMO. The main reason beginners are asked to use a neutral grip is that beginners are more likely to use a grip that favors one wing over the other and this makes it harder for them to develop all their strokes. But once you get good, any grip that allows you to play the stroke well and that wins in the long run is encouraged. What you consider major might be minor for another person.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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GoldenDragoon
Silver Member Joined: 01/09/2012 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 769 |
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I would say that trying to switch grips during rallies is leaning more towards advanced stuff. I have played with my grip alot and there are definate advantages to different grips for FH & BH. I would tend to think that when your game advances to the point that you feel to have "time" between strokes, then you coule benefit from adjusting your grip as you setup to play a stroke. I doubt it would instantly improve for a while.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Unless Persson has extremely small hands/fingers, he must be using an extra long handle. I tried his grip without choking on the handle and i needed lots of extra handle to control the racket. The one benefit of all this is that I now realize that my shakehands grip was way too high. I'm going to go to a lower one (similar to our friend Magnus Mannson - ok, not that extreme but who knows). |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Pingvinis
Super Member Joined: 02/16/2013 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 167 |
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I went through the same thing a few years ago, and eventually had to cut & sand all my flared handled blades into straight handles.
Edited by Pingvinis - 03/27/2013 at 10:46am |
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2332 |
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I never realised that Persson's grip was so extreme. My teammate has that exact grip. He hasn't got a BH hit though, so I'll send him a few links to Persson videos to give him inspiration. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14822 |
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Tinykin. I'm sure you probably realized the deal but just wanted to take this opportunity to clarify: that picture might give the wrong view of Persson's grip - Persson's grip is really a very low shakehand's grip where he rests the index finger underneath the blade face. It looks like a hammer grip in that picture.
The wierd thing about that grip is that many people think it is forehand dominant and probably almost as many believe it is backhand dominant. I think the wrist flexibility makes up for the loss of control because it makes it easier to generate some power when I am jammed.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Actually, I didn't realize Persson had such different grip. With regards to the OP - who would be a good player to emulate for beginner?
I was thinking Zoran Primorac.
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loop2kill
Member Joined: 02/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 35 |
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I have been in grip switch, grip change hell for decades. Even now it takes my utmost concentration to keep from shifting grips between points. There are equipment junkies and I am a grip junkie. If I see a player doing well with a backhand oriented grip I will attempt it, forehand oriented, that's next, high on the racket neck, yep, low on the racket handle, yeah that might work. Arrrrgh!! I sometimes think I should just wrap tape around my hand for the duration of a match so I won't think about it.
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mr.ishaq
Member Joined: 10/23/2012 Location: Malaysia Status: Offline Points: 57 |
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in Kreanga's Butterfly training video, he advised we should start learning by using neutral grip. if you're developed enough, you may try changing grip.
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"I do not have any idols. I am my own idol." World Champion Zhang Jike
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V-Griper
Silver Member Joined: 09/19/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 879 |
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Most players use a neutral grip on the forehand and a backhand biased grip on the back hand. Their are outliers such as Timo who switches to a forehand biased grip on his forehand but,again, most players use neutral. In my observation ML's grip switch is relatively small. So there is a lot of variation but they seem to do some kind of grip adjustment. It really comes down to whats comfortable for you.
Afaik the CHN players have standardized on the neutral grip for the forehand. All the top CHN players I've seen use a neutral grip on the FH. I have not looked closely at European players see a clear trend. To me Euro players have more variation in what they choose to use for their FH and BH grips.
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Tinykin
Platinum Member Joined: 10/30/2003 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 2332 |
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Nope, I didn't realise anything. I never did look at Persson's game too closely. Thanks for the explanation as I did have the wrong idea. Looking closely, I can see what you are saying. I'm just trying out the grip and it is not as difficult as it may appear. It is pretty neutral and a possible advantage is to reduce the number of 'finger hits' from misreading an incoming sidespin ball. The grip in action is clearly seen here. Edited by Tinykin - 03/28/2013 at 8:54am |
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blahness
Premier Member Joined: 10/18/2009 Location: Melbourne Status: Offline Points: 5443 |
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Actually the CNT players' grip trend seems to be more and more BH dominant nowadays, I don't see anyone with a FH dominant grip like Wang Liqin or Ma Lin nowadays (only Xu Xin at the moment). Zhang Jike has an extremely BH dominant grip, Ma Long is slightly BH dominant, Zhou Yu, Yan An, and a few of the other younger CNT players all have BH dominant grips.
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Viscaria FH: Hurricane 8-80 BH: D05 Back to normal shape bats :( |
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