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Tenergy Hard Sponge |
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puppy412
Silver Member Joined: 03/25/2013 Location: houston Status: Offline Points: 686 |
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I use t25 and t05. the difference in hardness is extremely small if any. difference in speed and spin is also very small, I'd say t05 is a little bit faster. Edited by puppy412 - 11/24/2013 at 10:35pm |
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LOOPMEISTER
Platinum Member Joined: 11/13/2008 Location: U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 2486 |
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I find 25 to be a bit sluggish feeling compared to 05, and it has more sound than 05, hence I consider 05 to be the "harder" of the 2. That's my interpretation, but I understand how it can be interpreted the other way. Edit: I also find 05 to be more predictable/controllable than 25, so we prob have totally different techniques. Edited by LOOPMEISTER - 11/24/2013 at 11:24pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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The topsheet makes T25 overall have greater hardness, this is not even debatable, but it is also somewhat slower as Loopmeister says, which becomes more noticeable at mid-distance and beyond. It seems we all agree that T05 is faster than T25. It is not a vast difference but I most definitely notice it. Like Loomeister, I prefer T05. Harder is not always faster. Hardness can be measured and it is not measured by how fast the rubber is. It is measured by compressibility using something called a durometer. On the other hand, MX-P is a little harder than T05 and I think it is faster too, at least just a bit. If you search threads on that, you would find a pretty strong consensus about that as well. So maybe High Arc would not like T25.
I have never tried Spin Art. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Nice one. High Arc is a much, much better player than I am and by his own description of his strengths and videos of his play, his specialty is counterlooping. Not just that, he knows what he is looking for. He likens it to MX-P and also says that some Tenergy 05 sheets are already like that. So it's not quite Spin Art, but something probably in the 46-50 hardness degree range like Rhyzm or MX-P. This assumes Tenergy 05 is at 44, but some people believe it is really at 46-48 hardness already.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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Amen, brother! |
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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assiduous
Platinum Member Joined: 05/01/2011 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2521 |
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Fatt, while you will look long and hard to find a stronger promoter of the free market than me, I still have to say that the free market is not a perfect world where everything is fixed immediately by the 'invisible hand'. There is demand for many things that nobody has figured yet, and nobody may ever figure. And some things are worthless, like college education, and yet people pay 60K per year for them. When will the free market figure this out, I ask myself. I learned absolutely nothing in college despite having the highest gpa in my class. Anyway, my point is, free market is not a magic wand, people don't happen immediately and automatically, and sometimes all it takes to start something new is sending a company an email with a few suggestions.
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puppy412 : Sorry man, I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but I know that more training will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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kurokami
Gold Member Joined: 11/08/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1277 |
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@next level. i last practiced counter looping with fan yi yong and zhong zongqi. having a specialty just means its your personal relative strength.
@OP, you could check up durometer readings for rubbers http://oneofakindtrading.com.au/sponge_hardness_table1.htm but i mean like i was saying, tenergy is hard enough. most of the misses in counterlooping rallies by top players using tenergy are off the table rather than into the net. then, if you look at samsonov with the harder MX-P vs XX in the recent world's cup, he doesn't really counterloop to begin with, and he misses a lot into the net or off the table anytime he tries to counterloop xx except when xx makes a weaker return. it's really hard to spin back a strong loop. also, you guys are asking why butterfly (japan) isn't making harder rubbers like other manufacturers. it would be more suited to physically stronger players so probably wouldn't be popular outside of western countries. (case of bryce hard and spin art) the reason why chinese rubbers work at their hardness is because they're much more linear, slower overall in comparison it helps those with thinner builds to add more power to their shots. they're still boosting everywhere not just for speed but also to soften the rubber. if BTY makes a hard rubber, they'd have to cut down the speed to make it work and then it wouldn't be what makes it tenergy anymore. ** high arc, you can also consider a harder blade. ZLC for a smaller change, mizutani and amultart are very good considerations. i know a couple players who also play tennis, and prefer that harder, stiff feel like these blades.
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Viscaria
H3N/T05 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=65345&KW=&title=feedback-kurokami |
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seguso
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2010 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 1619 |
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I think a harder t05 would lose its main property: to work well on stiff blades. And if you have a flexible blade, there is already M1. Which is perfection. (Yes I am a fan ) So I see no need for a harder T05. Edited by seguso - 11/25/2013 at 3:36am |
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pg5x - mxd fh & bh - 2015 video
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High_Arc
Super Member Joined: 10/01/2009 Status: Offline Points: 484 |
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On both Butterfly ALC blades and the Rosskopf Emotion (quite stiff blades IMO), I personally pefer harder/heavier Tenergys. As said, i don't like the weight part of it, but the performance advantage that I feel/imagine makes up for it.
In my opinion, Tenergy's get harder after a week or two of use (playing 4-6 times or so), which is the main reason why I prefer close to new T05 over brand new T05.
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High_Arc
Super Member Joined: 10/01/2009 Status: Offline Points: 484 |
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In fact, I personally even think that usually the harder the blade the better it goes with harder T05.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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@kurokami,
The durometer readings there are old, and none of the newer Tenergy comparables are there. Edited by NextLevel - 11/25/2013 at 11:29am |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I like it better after a week also, but I always figured it was because it was softening up! In reality it probably has something to do with the glue in the pores. |
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High_Arc
Super Member Joined: 10/01/2009 Status: Offline Points: 484 |
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Don't you think that a brand new T05 has a very "airy" (soft) feel to it?
I always think that there is more easy spin when it is brand new, not necessarily more maximum spin though.
I would agree that it's most likely due to glue (I use water based glue), but somehow in combination with playing.
When I play with it for the first time, you can see a notch where the ball landed, independently on wheter you glued the rubber on the same daya or some days ago.
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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Why do you think that? If the top sheet doesn't stretch across the surface of the paddle and snap back you will not get any 'catapult' effect. If the top sheet doesn't stretch at all you will get no 'catapult' effect. Then you are simply limited to how fast your paddle brushes the ball. Why did people use speed glue to 'soften up' their rubbers? Very little is linear when it comes to TT rubbers. The ball doesn't compress in a linear way either because it is round. You just need to train your brain to compensate. |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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The T05, T80, T64 & T25 all have the same sponge and hardness. Similarly the Tenergy FX all have the same sponge hardness.
If a new and harder sponge was brought out, you can bet they'll release it for the full range of Tenergies as well. The Tenergy market is probably big enough to make that viable for them, and they might just knock out a few more competitors. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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How about a Tenergy OX for defensive players !
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Speed glues, with high concentrations of organic solvents, expanded both the sponge and the topsheet, but the sponge would expand more. The rubber would curl up as the glue dried and the solvent permeated the rubber, like a bimetalic thermocouple as the temperature changes. Then you would attach it to the blade, and something about the different amounts of expansion of the topsheet and sponge made it play better. Presumably it increased the resting tension that the topsheet was subjected to. Compared to the same rubbers glued without speed glue, it produced a very loud sound when the ball hit, a bit more speed, quite a bit more more spin, and a much better feel. I don't think it really made it appreciably softer, at least not all rubbers. Once all the solvent evaporated out of the rubbers, the effect would disappear, a few hours later usually. So we had to do it each time we played. I have no idea as to the physics behind why that would give a better playing characteristic but it most certainly did. The first generation of Tensor rubbers made by ESN tried to recreate this, I suppose by stretching the topsheet some while gluing it to the sponge. It had some effect, but never as good as older rubbers with speed glue, and ot also seemed to make the topsheet very brittle. Even with modern non-Tensor rubbers like Tenergy, there is some greater tendency for rubbers to crumble around the edges than in the old days. |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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A nice thought, but unfortunately inverted OX rubbers are not legal. I suppose you could glue one upside-down to try it. |
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zheyi
Silver Member Joined: 06/28/2009 Status: Offline Points: 940 |
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Spin art is the one.. unless you want a spin art fx or el.. :)
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GSOM_GSOM11
Super Member Joined: 07/09/2010 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 296 |
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Maybe Roundell Hard is the way for hard sponge fans?
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tt4me
Gold Member Joined: 01/17/2013 Location: RC Poverty Zone Status: Offline Points: 1019 |
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I missed the whole speed glue era but I wanted to find out about it for myself. I bought a $10 bottle of Dawei speed glue and used it to glue my IQUL just so I would know. I am more of a buy and try guy. Everything pretty much happened as you said. What you did say is that the rubber became heavier with each application. I think the added weight could be important. As for why... There are a couple of things it could be but I am not absolutely sure which. There is a damping or frictional component to the sponge. Perhaps the speed glue reduces that damping component in some way. Look up mass spring damper. This would be my #1 theory. No one ever talks about the damping effect of sponge unless they are a darksider. During impact the energy of the ball is dissipated in the sponge, blade and ball. When the sponge expands it must not only accelerate the ball it must also accelerate the sponge. The energy used to accelerate the sponge is lost. These means the lighter sponges will not need as big a proportion of the energy used to accelerate the ball. Knowing what I know now I don't see how adding speed glue makes the sponge lighter. If a rubber is hard it will not absorb much energy and that will tend to make hard sponges faster provided the damping is the same. However, I don't see how this will help the top sheet stretch more across the surface of the sponge.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I am glad you tried it, and I think you may one of the guys who has the kind of background needed to explain what is really going on to make the rubber better after that treatment. I seem to recall that the Dawei stuff is one of the "milder" speed glues compared to what most of us used to use. Some of the adhesives used to repair tires can give you a better idea of what most of us were using. Obviously this is all illegal, it is more for the intellectual satisfaction of understanding it.
Edit: the other value is to show what it is some rubber inventors are still striving to re-create. Tenergy may or may not be the "best" rubber, but it comes closest to what old speed glued rubber was like. Five years of players have come since the 2008 ban, and may be looking for something different now, or may not know what they missed and so have somewhat different criteria for judging rubbers. |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Regarding the original question, a harder sponge on the T05, I belive such a thing have existed, as the earlier versions of T05 felt harder and heavier then the current versions.
Back then, the only complaint I read about T05 was the weight, and many people did complain about that. So, my guess is, Bty did something about it, reduced the weight by making the sponge sligthly softer. For what its worth, I liked the earlier version best, but still likes the current version better then any other rubber I have tried. |
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frogger
Premier Member Joined: 08/03/2010 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3062 |
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I somewhat miss the speed glue era. Ball speed was so great at times the human eye had a difficult time tracking the ball. Sriver max speed glued to a BTY Gergely Carbon blade was the bomb. I doubt even a Tenergy or a Bryce Speed with hard sponge could match the old setups in sheer speed. Now that I'm entering into fossilville I guess let the old glue days become a faded fond memory. The none glue era is fast enough I believe for all levels.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes, I think it may have been harder and heavier back at the beginning, at least a little bit. |
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