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Intermediate Player Dilemma!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2014 at 6:05pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by APW46 APW46 wrote:

Learn the basics with the limit of what you can control, which may take a few years, then when you have mastered footwork and stroke play, move up, but don't ever do it too soon.  ( 99% of players do and spend the rest of their TT careers frustrated, not knowing why)

APW46, please explain. I'm not sure I follow, but would like to.
 It is easier to be pro-active, ie re-attack if you can control incoming spin and pace, and that initially requires you to play with a set up that you can become confident with. In your formative years as a TT player, it is important to become very comfortable with your attacking shots coming back, it improves stroke recovery and the general confidence in the length of rally play. If your set up is too quick, too early you are in danger of never learning this, you either hit a winner, or miss the table, and it becomes the norm for you. Ultimately it depends on how much you play, so a developing player who plays all the time can move up quicker, but as I said, 99% of players on this planet can't actually control what they play with in equipment terms, they fall for sales pitches and the belief that they can emulate the worlds best players, which of course they can, but generally on a losing ratio of winning shots.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2014 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Saw a guy with medium pips forehand, long pips backhand this weekend.  He took down many loopers until he faced an allround player in the U1950 who just gave him a dead ball/push rally until the allround found balls to smash and loop.  Games were close though.

In truth, I wouldn't mind getting to the level whereby I lose to a u1950 player in a close match. I could figure out how to improve from there. :-).

The guy with the medium pips forehand always stands square to the table (usually right foot slightly in front) so he has no forehand.  He just blocks and hits with the long pips in a rally.  I think after having inverted on the forehand for a long time, he just realized that there was no point having that if he wasn't going to loop with it per se (his serves are pretty basic as well).  Now at least, he can give people weird balls on both sides with one side weirder than the other...

Just pointing out that there are many ways of winning matches in TT.
 
Quick Spiel to support your last sentence.
 
J. Lee from Boston TTC plays either MP OX/LP and LP OX/LP thin sponge and is not a defensive player. He uses C-Pen setup and hits through everything, sometimes punch blocks, sometimes touch shots you. Usually, it is an offensive shot, unless he is giving you a ball to try to attack and make a mistake. You leave a shot short or a little high, he is HITTING it. He isn't doing some baby blue bump here, he is trying to cram it down Ur throat or by you. (usually by-ya, like wide angle by-ya)
 
Someone might look at his equipment specs and think he is an O50 don't move / don't attack lame-azz player, but he is far from that. He plays 2000+ level with that equipment playing a flexible attacking game with some allround elements. if you see him play, you will understand. If you face him in a match, you will understand even more.
 
He pressures you with quick off the bounce, angles, change of spin/speed/depth and the quality of his shots are good. There are a LOT of O50 gents out there who are not near 1/2 as active and offensive minded as Jay.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/12/2014 at 11:05pm
I saw him play at the teams. He beat one of the juniors ay my club but lost to another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 12:55am
Tommy,you dont need to be an all out attacker to use inverted on the backhand... You can do anything with it and that's the point.

I played with a guy who used inverted bh, medium pip fh and plays a very controlled game, he's a little over us2000. A low spin short pip is better than a medium, so don't use a medium but it can work
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 1:05am
Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

T . . . A low spin short pip is better than a medium, so don't use a medium but it can work

I have used a few SPs over my EJ career, but now I can't afford to spend too much time and money experimenting . . . I need to find an SP that will work well right away. I already bought and sold a dozen 802-40s, 802s, 799s, etc. I don't want to revisit those failures. What SP do you suggest I get? I need something that will hit through spin and punch block well. I have the most trouble when trying to smash an underspin pop-up . . . goes down into the net or I over compensate and it's off the table . . . what a waste of a good set up!!


Edited by tommyzai - 03/13/2014 at 1:06am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 3:38am
802-40 is fine for hitting through spin, punch blocking, and smashing under spin pop-ups. If you are having trouble with these shots then just focus on your technique and practice more - you will get it eventually.
I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pingpongpaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 7:58am
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

T . . . A low spin short pip is better than a medium, so don't use a medium but it can work


I have used a few SPs over my EJ career, but now I can't afford to spend too much time and money experimenting . . . I need to find an SP that will work well right away. I already bought and sold a dozen 802-40s, 802s, 799s, etc. I don't want to revisi<span style="line-height: 1.4;">t those failures. What SP do you suggest I get? I need something that will hit through spin and punch block well. I have the most trouble when trying to smash an underspin pop-up . . .goes down into the net or I over compensate and it's off the table . . . what a waste of a good set up!!</span>



Tommy its not about the rubber or bat, its about the player having the patience and the respect for the game to practice properly and improve. You may never be a champion, but you can be a better player if you realize where the problem is and act accordingly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 12:35pm
PingPongPaddy, are you trying to stop the unstoppable EJ madman?  Forget it.  He's unstoppable!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sticharo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 12:42pm
Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

802-40 is fine for hitting through spin, punch blocking, and smashing under spin pop-ups. If you are having trouble with these shots then just focus on your technique and practice more - you will get it eventually.


Bingo!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 6:59pm
Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

. . . 
Tommy its not about the rubber or bat, its about the player having the patience and the respect for the game to practice properly and improve. You may never be a champion, but you can be a better player if you realize where the problem is and act accordingly.

I understand what you're saying, but it's also important to get the right equipment for the intended style of play. For example, a two-winged looper would not do well with anti spin; a pips player will struggle with a flexible blade; etc. My dilemma is what to do about my inability to loop. One suggestion . . . a good suggestion . . . is to once again try SP. If I do so, I want to give myself the best chance for success. If I am going to buy a new blade and rubber it makes sense to me to buy something that helps me be successful in that style of play. I could use more patience, but I certainly have respect for the game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 7:02pm
Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:

. . . 802-40 is fine for hitting through spin, punch blocking, and smashing under spin pop-ups. 
 

I agree, but If I am going to try and get out of my dilemma, I want better than fine. I want the best!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boaspirit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 7:10pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:

. . . 802-40 is fine for hitting through spin, punch blocking, and smashing under spin pop-ups. 
 

I agree, but If I am going to try and get out of my dilemma, I want better than fine. I want the best!


have you tried
Air Panamera short pips rubber?

my friend tried it on his BH and he said its pretty good for punching through spin and flat hitting
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote puppy412 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 7:17pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by pingpongpaddy pingpongpaddy wrote:

. . . 
Tommy its not about the rubber or bat, its about the player having the patience and the respect for the game to practice properly and improve. You may never be a champion, but you can be a better player if you realize where the problem is and act accordingly.

I understand what you're saying, but it's also important to get the right equipment for the intended style of play. For example, a two-winged looper would not do well with anti spin; a pips player will struggle with a flexible blade; etc. My dilemma is what to do about my inability to loop. One suggestion . . . a good suggestion . . . is to once again try SP. If I do so, I want to give myself the best chance for success. If I am going to buy a new blade and rubber it makes sense to me to buy something that helps me be successful in that style of play. I could use more patience, but I certainly have respect for the game. 


if you have inverted and you can't loop you hit flat.
it's not that inverted is for looping and short pips is for hitting.
you can hit fine with inverted.
some of the best blockers use inverted.
waldner on his bh is mostly a blocker/hitter.


Edited by puppy412 - 03/13/2014 at 7:30pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 10:31pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:

. . . 802-40 is fine for hitting through spin, punch blocking, and smashing under spin pop-ups. 
 

I agree, but If I am going to try and get out of my dilemma, I want better than fine. I want the best!

No, if you are going to get out of your dilemma you need to practice and focus on your technique. If you cannot do these shots with 802-40 you will not be able to do them with any rubber. Learn to do the shots first and then, if you want, look around for another SP.
I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 10:49pm
Give DHS Dragonow a try. It can generate spin like 802-40, but can hit through spin much better, I am currently playing with both, the 802-40 is easier to play, but the Dragonow is better once you get used to it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

 . . .
No, if you are going to get out of your dilemma you need to practice and focus on your technique. If you cannot do these shots with 802-40 you will not be able to do them with any rubber. Learn to do the shots first and then, if you want, look around for another SP.

Can't I have the best racket and learn to do the shots? Why do I have to buy the 802-40 AGAIN?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 11:25pm
Originally posted by puppy412 puppy412 wrote:

if you have inverted and you can't loop you hit flat.
it's not that inverted is for looping and short pips is for hitting.
you can hit fine with inverted.
some of the best blockers use inverted.
waldner on his bh is mostly a blocker/hitter.

I can flat hit and do a slight topspin loop drive with inverted; however, many members on this thread have suggested that I get a rubber that will be better at flat hitting and blocking . . . and can also hit through spin, which inverted cannot do.

I'm open to any suggestions. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 11:40pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

 . . .
No, if you are going to get out of your dilemma you need to practice and focus on your technique. If you cannot do these shots with 802-40 you will not be able to do them with any rubber. Learn to do the shots first and then, if you want, look around for another SP.


Can't I have the best racket and learn to do the shots? Why do I have to buy the 802-40 AGAIN?

I don't know what best racket means. Think in terms of suitable. Learn to play the shots first then find a racket that suits you. For now any half decent racket will do. As long as it is not uncontrollable it really doesn't matter what you use.

As for rubber, you don't have to use 802-40 again - just use any half decent rubber and learn how to play the shots. However if you have a sheet of 802-40 lying around then that is as good as any.



I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/13/2014 at 11:55pm
Thanks DDreamer. I understand what you mean. But, I don't have any SPs around that are mine . . . just borrowed. So what do I get? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 12:21am
ANYTHING!
I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 12:29am
Originally posted by DDreamer DDreamer wrote:

ANYTHING!

I am very grateful that you and anyone else takes the time to help me with my dilemma, but we have very different ways of thinking. I agree about training, but I don't see why I should buy "anything" when I can buy something that is better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DDreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 12:33am
Because, so long as it is a standard SP, it makes zero difference what you use. You have to learn how to play the strokes first.
I know that faster equipment will make me better, I don't need to come here to figure that out
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Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by puppy412 puppy412 wrote:

if you have inverted and you can't loop you hit flat.
it's not that inverted is for looping and short pips is for hitting.
you can hit fine with inverted.
some of the best blockers use inverted.
waldner on his bh is mostly a blocker/hitter.

I can flat hit and do a slight topspin loop drive with inverted; however, many members on this thread have suggested that I get a rubber that will be better at flat hitting and blocking . . . and can also hit through spin, which inverted cannot do.

I'm open to any suggestions. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boaspirit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 2:22am
looks like you know what kind of style you wanna play now but dont know what equipment to use
so why don't you just try different kind of SP you are the unstoppable equipment junkie after all

if im not wrong about your level you probably can execute the correct stroke but its probably not consistent
so why dont you use the 802-40 to practice your consistency then just experiment with different SP and see which one you like more.

you said you wana try to developed your spin correct? well if you are able to loop then you dont need to punch through any spin just loop it. / developd a side spin flick

plus your not that offensive anyway because you are a blocker correct? so you basically fed off others power inverted will give you the extra oomph when you aggressive block or punch block

SP on the other hand will give you abillity to kill spin but your opponent will get use to it if he's used to it( loop then push, rinse repeat) not that its not good but you really should just use it on one side to give your game variation.

we cant recommend equipment that are the best for you because we simply have different way of playing. so whats best for you might not be best for us, so we simply dont know, and vice versa

we can only give you options


Edited by boaspirit - 03/14/2014 at 2:28am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BRS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 9:11am
Have you tried Victas brand SP?  This one sounds like the best.  It costs a fortune, so it better be good.

Victas V > 01 Limber

The V > 01 Limber rubber is the slightly softer and more controlled version of the VICTAS V > 01 premium series for ambitious players. The goal of the development of this version was to produce a High-End offensive rubber in the medium segment. The German and Japanese material experts (GJ Tec) combined the extremely spinny and fast High Energy Tension rubber sheet of V > 01 with an open-pore, state-of-the-art medium sponge with great catapult effect. The result is a highly-elastic, modern offensive rubber which does not fall short of the other V > 01 versions as regards power and spin. The “Power & Balance” concept was optimized such that the slightly softer sponge design of V > 01 enables higher ball trajectories, which significantly increases forgiveness in less-than-perfect topspin strokes. In attacking strokes, the rubber provides for fantastic feel for speed plus inimitable speed glue effect.

sponge thickness:  2,0 | max

Speed: 110

Control: 93

Spin: 107

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Sorry, this one is the SP.  Still sounds pretty good.  Hard to find information in English on Victas.  

Victas VO >101 Short Pips – Fast, Flat, Disruptive.

The VO > 101 is a very fast short pips-out rubber with built-in High Energy Tension Technology. Combining Japanese Pips know-how with German expertize as led to V0 > 101.

This is a high-tech rubber designed for the aggressive pips out attacker. The new rubber sheet with optimized pips geometry produces a great pips-out effect, and the flat trajectory of the ball will put your opponent under pressure. The elastic sponge combined with our High Energy Tension Technology opens up new dimensions of speed development in the pips-out player.

Victas Brand: Victas is a premium brand launched in 2001 by the Mr. Koji Matsushita, TSP president and former world class defensive player. Victas strives to produce premium product for both the defensive and offensive player by combining Japanese Know-How with German expertize.

VICTAS stands for: Innovation - Quality - Passion.

“Our mission is to develop products that will make, every player better. If you are looking for a revolutionary brand with second-to-none commitment and passion for innovation. VICTAS will be the right choice. In order to meet our high product quality standards, our team of VICTAS experts in Japan and Europe is ready to face the challenge every single day. We live and work by the, motto “Nothing but the very best will do”.

For more information on Victas and TSP visit http://www.tsp-yamato.com/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mhnh007 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 10:00am
You can flat hit with any type of rubbers, but most of the time you don't have an easy ball to flat hit.  SP give you better margin of error to drive hit than inverted.  Also, unless you are a natural born hitter, or does not know how to loop, I guaranty you will revert to looping once the game started, regardless of how much training and how many lesson you took on hitting, because to hit, you have to be ready to hit all the time, and in game you do not have that luxury as in training.  SP will force you to be ready to hit more, because looping with it is a pain LOL.

"A hitter must accept the fact that he will sometimes go for a seemingly dumb shot so as to make sure he doesn't let an opportunity to smash go by" Coach Larry Hodges.  Write this down and hang it on the wall, or tattoo it to your forearm if you are not a natural born hitter, and want to become one Smile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bluebucket Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 12:01pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by bluebucket bluebucket wrote:

T . . . A low spin short pip is better than a medium, so don't use a medium but it can work


I have used a few SPs over my EJ career, but now I can't afford to spend too much time and money experimenting . . . I need to find an SP that will work well right away. I already bought and sold a dozen 802-40s, 802s, 799s, etc. I don't want to revisi<span style="line-height: 1.4;">t those failures. What SP do you suggest I get? I need something that will hit through spin and punch block well. I have the most trouble when trying to smash an underspin pop-up . . . goes down into the net or I over compensate and it's off the table . . . what a waste of a good set up!!</span>




Those friendship short pips have won many championships, it only depends how much or little spin you want. 799 is a raw pip with more spin, 802-40 is cooked but a very large pip, 802 is lower spin, harder to use with more deception. I don't like playing against 802, 802-40 is not too bad to play against but it has the benefit of being very easy to play with.

With any short pip its about commitment, you need to know how to line up the blade and ball and know where you want to hit the ball.

Those things you can get away with not doing when using inverted due to the massive arc it doesn't really matter because the ball will naturally land somewhere close enough
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote piligrim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 12:07pm
Originally posted by boaspirit boaspirit wrote:

Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by sticharo sticharo wrote:

. . . 802-40 is fine for hitting through spin, punch blocking, and smashing under spin pop-ups. 
 

I agree, but If I am going to try and get out of my dilemma, I want better than fine. I want the best!


have you tried
Air Panamera short pips rubber?

my friend tried it on his BH and he said its pretty good for punching through spin and flat hitting


I have Air Panamera for sale :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sticharo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03/14/2014 at 12:43pm
I use inverted/lp.....

I have to back up here....and echo what some have been saying...but get back to the main point.

A discussion about inverted vrs SP vrs MP etc. is sort of irrelevant.

I don't use my inverted to loop.....I use it to serve....push....and smash.  That is 99.5% of my inverted usage. I'm the perfect candidate for SP. I've tried it....and I just prefer the feel of an inverted rubber.  My flat hits remind me of the old time basketball players that used set shots. It ain't pretty but it works.

Sure...I topspin if I absolutely have to....
Playing for a total of about 8 hrs last week.... I can count the top spin rallies I had on one hand....and probably 2 or 3 of the rallies were just goofing around while warming up with a looper.

There is no ITTF rule that I know of that requires that you use inverted for the sole purpose of generating spin on every shot.....at least not yet.

Use what feels best to you....and work on maximizing your strengths. Sit down and use Ben Franklin's method of making decisions if you have to....positives on one side of a paper...negatives on the other....whatever works.
Equipment, if it can at all, will only mask your weaknesses so long.
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