Alex Table Tennis - MyTableTennis.NET Homepage
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Warmup problem
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Warmup problem

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
slowry View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 07/24/2013
Location: Minneapolis
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Warmup problem
    Posted: 04/11/2014 at 11:17pm
I have problems with needing a lot of warmup time.  Specifically regarding any kind of topspin strokes on the backhand.  I'm an older player, and I remember this issue cropping up as long as 8 years ago.  Where I'd play games with more casual players, and since they knew I needed significant warmup, they figured their best bet was to find a way for me to get zero warmup.

I won't go into my theories about why this problem is happening.  I have done some experimenting -- I'd especially like to figure out a way to alleviate the problem with something I could do away from the table.  Right now, using my robot to try and warm up, it seems to take 20 to 30 minutes to start to see improvement.  As it happens, in the coming weeks and months I'll likely be playing more matches against casual (and mostly weaker) players who never heard of anything like forehand vs FH and BH vs BH warmup.

Weeks ago I bought a 2.5 pound "dumb bell" and tried approximating my backhand stroke away from the table while holding the weight.  More recently I tried a very light resistance stretch band, so I could kind of give my wrist a "workout" -- I did about 200 backhand "shadow" strokes.  It does seem to help somewhat with the robot to really whack the ball with my FH for a while.  And helps to do what I'd call a "step around" drill with the robot, where the ball stays in the same direction, and I just alternate FH and BH.

I will soon try using heavier weights than 2.5 pounds -- alternating curls with wrist curls, I suppose -- wondering if the key is getting my wrist and that general area literally warm and the blood moving.  One thing that is a little help, is simply to whack lots of strong backhands off a wall (such as plasterboard).  I noticed that today Larry Hodges blogged about weighted rackets.  I may try to find a way to glue two together as he mentioned.

Recently I tried using my robot about six days in a row, where every day I hit something close to 1,000 backhands.  Wondering if the consecutive days would help me.  Didn't seem to.  

To try and describe how it feels:  When I first pick up a paddle and try backhands, I seem to have little confidence in where the ball will go.  As I keep working at it, maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, I start to have a more natural and unhindered follow-thru.  I've never noticed the usual TT stretches for the hand/wrist being much help.  But I never tried, for instance, doing them for ten times longer than typical.

Back to Top
Sponsored Links


Back to Top
mjamja View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 05/30/2009
Status: Offline
Points: 2892
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 12:05am
Have you tried getting some video of you at the beginning of play and then some more after you are fully warmed up?  Maybe the comparison can help you to find something to focus on that will make the warmup transition happen faster.

From what you describe happening it really sounds like you have some fundamental flaw in the stroke mechanics that you gradually work through correcting as you warm up.  If that is the case you might need to do a lot of shadow training in a mirror or with lots of short breaks to check on video so that you can ingrain the right stroke.

Of course it could be some physical issue that does not allow you to reach the proper form until a certain muscle, tendon, ligament (etc) is warmed up/stretched out.  Even if it is this at least the comparison video would give you a better idea of where the problem really lies.

Good luck.

Mark
Back to Top
boaspirit View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 02/23/2013
Location: usa md
Status: Offline
Points: 205
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote boaspirit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 12:30am
i dont recommend using weight to shadow strokes you are more likely to injure yourself. you can use weight trainning to boost your muscle and endurance but shadow strokes with weight will do more harm then good because you are already doing so many reps without the weight.
if your opponent are weak and dont know Bh-Bh warmup or fh-fh warmup tell them and teach them, if they cant hit bh-bh then tell them to hit fh crosscourt to your bh and vice versa

i simply dont believe that there are people that wont give you warm up if you ask them if they really dont then dont play them.

butterfly Timo Boll spirit

FH TG3NEO

BH vega Pro
Back to Top
mts388 View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 03/21/2014
Location: Sonora CA
Status: Offline
Points: 2376
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 1:43am
mjamja and boaspirit have given you excellent suggestions.  I think boaspirit was right on about not shadow stroking with weights.  You're begging for an injury if you do. 

I don't think it's warmup problem, but as one of the other posters suggest, it's a stroke problem.  I think that while in your mind you need 30 minutes to warm up, I think you're using the 30 minutes to fix the flaw in your stroke.

I would add some cross training to your week.  I do yoga twice a week and it has really helped.  Yoga helps with balance, strength and breathing.  You mentioned that you're old, but didn't say how old.  For some people 40 is old.  At 69 I'm still young. 


Edited by mts388 - 04/12/2014 at 1:50am
Back to Top
kenneyy88 View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/06/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4074
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 4:31am


kreanga did some resistance band exercise before his session in this video. 




Edited by kenneyy88 - 04/12/2014 at 4:41am
Back to Top
APW46 View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 02/02/2009
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3331
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote APW46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 4:37am
Originally posted by slowry slowry wrote:

I have problems with needing a lot of warmup time.  Specifically regarding any kind of topspin strokes on the backhand.  I'm an older player, and I remember this issue cropping up as long as 8 years ago.  Where I'd play games with more casual players, and since they knew I needed significant warmup, they figured their best bet was to find a way for me to get zero warmup.


 Its all about tempo, or lack of it in your case, although I don't see why you can't get it from your robot. Sounds to me like your strokes are not particularly well drilled, and messing about with weights will do absolutely nothing to help you unfortunately. Its very hard to get things right if you have no quality the other end of the table and there are definitely no short cuts, all I can say is play within yourself, don't become obsessed and force the issue.
The Older I get, The better I was.
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 4:40am
The key is a light weight (no more than 3 lbs) not macho weights so to speak.

Also, improve the elements of your game that depend less on warmups, usually serves, pushes and blocks.

Edited by NextLevel - 04/12/2014 at 4:41am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
kenneyy88 View Drop Down
Premier Member
Premier Member
Avatar

Joined: 01/06/2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4074
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenneyy88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 5:02am
How do you warm up/stretch before you come to the table?
Back to Top
slowry View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 07/24/2013
Location: Minneapolis
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 9:14am
I'm in my late 50s.  When I first started playing as a kid, I adopted a strongly-backhand grip, and almost couldn't hit a forehand if I tried.  

Years later I sustained a very serious injury to my playing hand.  The operation involved a tendon transplant from my wrist as I recall. At some point I picked up a paddle again, at least now my grip was not so BH-dominant. So I played for years off and on.  I moved to a different state. Eventually I got in touch with the local coach in this metro area, and got involved with leagues which I still am, though not that diligently.

The previous winter I actually gave up playing right hand because I was so frustrated with this same backhand issue.  I applied myself to learning left hand, and I did enjoy it partly because it was fun and motivating to actually start just about from scratch.  I no longer had ingrained bad habits.  So I got a better practical understanding of technique.  There were a couple moments of "aha! That's why coaches say to do that."

 I took personal lefty lessons from a top coach.  After months I had to quit.  That was, believe it or not, because my (aged) left pinky it appeared could not stand up to being wrapped around a paddle that often.  I now haven't played lefty for around 8 months, and that pinky still does not feel quite normal (it is stiff in the mornings).

So it was back to RH.  Now I found I could apply some of the "first-hand" LH stroke knowledge to my RH.  A couple times in the process I grabbed the paddle LH (pinky extended!) and basically "watched myself" hit a few shots.  But I also decided I had to fix my very long-term issues with my RH grip.  I decided it was too loose, and it was out of position. That took a long time with grip-experimentation on my robot.  After awhile I realized it was somewhat trying to deal with two conflicting issues:  I needed to habitually grip the paddle more firmly, but I needed to be quite relaxed to  be able to execute a BH.  What I ended up doing, was in between each shot, I would momentarily tense muscles, then relax for the shot which really helped.

A few weeks ago I did go to a clinic with the top coach in my state and asked him to look at my basic strokes, he had no changes to suggest.  Thanks so much for all of your replies and suggestions.  What Kreanga was doing around 2:58 is almost exactly what I tried recently.

I'm sorry I didn't give details such as my ancient operation (around 30 years ago), but I've thought about making this posting for months, and including that stuff made it such a long post, plus I suppose I am a bit reticent.

I do take care of myself pretty well.  I'm an obsessively healthy eater.  (I actually keep vitamin C powder at my desk at work, and have a tiny bit maybe every hour or two.  I make what's called chicken bone broth and have some daily.)  My ankle is a little tender at the moment, but normally I walk most days of the week.  And work in short sprints during the walks (one of the things I'm not doing right now).  Sometimes I get lazy, but try to do things like pushups, pullups, air squats, planks.  I've lost about 35 pounds in the last 8 years.

It is true that normally I do virtually no stretching before play or practice, but of course this BH issue has all my attention and if stretching does the trick I'm all for it.  I think conventional stretching is a little over-rated from what I've read. Maybe it's diet that allows me some relative freedom from injury in recent years.  I'm sure that sounds strange to some.  My rating I suppose would be around 1200. That same local coach recently told me he knows of players much better than I, where he saw the player not be able to do a stroke properly until about 30 minutes of steadily trying the same shot.

Back to Top
smackman View Drop Down
Assistant Moderator
Assistant Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 07/20/2009
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 3264
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 9:31am
I would just find some practice partners (who want to do drills) if that's what you are into
Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website
Back to Top
yogi_bear View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 11/25/2004
Location: Philippines
Status: Offline
Points: 7219
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote yogi_bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 9:45am
i think the problem is doing too many reps even with a light weight. why not start with 12 reps with 3 sets using a 4 lbs weights? depending on the period of your training or phase, the period of preparation is usually done with less weight and more on reps but i do not think it reaches 200 reps like u do
Independent online TT Product reviewer of XIOM, STIGA, JOOLA, SANWEI, GEWO, AIR, ITC, APEX, YASAKA and ABROS

ITTF Level 1 Coaching Course Conductor, ITTF Level 1 Coach
Back to Top
slowry View Drop Down
Beginner
Beginner


Joined: 07/24/2013
Location: Minneapolis
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowry Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 9:45am
I don't mean to suggest that during play I actually tense and relax muscles like that.  That was partly a way of "re-learning" to hit a proper BH drive, combined with the new grip. 
Back to Top
regiz.rugenz View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/25/2013
Location: San Jose, CA.
Status: Offline
Points: 461
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04/12/2014 at 12:29pm

I know so well how that feels.. been tackling a similar issue like you. On and off my timing goes off if I don't get fully warmed. it even gets frustrating when you can't even just get your drills right, that all the more frustrates you when the other player gets easily bored and suggests right away a game so he could set you off the table soon.

Still, there are times that I hit so well even at far and mid table, that I find some people seem to wonder asking " how the hell did he got better this time " .. only a day or two later to find me back again to where I was.. Confused

that really sucks!!

Well at last, the only case left for me now however, boils down to my wrist. although there were other factors that severely affected my strokes but were already been taken cared of. took me a while though to figure them all.. So, the only remaining issue that I worry now is the wrist.

Thought of changing from a type player I was, from all-round looping to a loop driving type, to switching into a lefty, even aiming for a defender type, of going for a surgery as I also feel I have CTS, and there's more.. I have joint issues from a side effect of a prescription, a trauma I had to live with.. I already had 2 surgeries, a hip and a knee had been totally replaced, another hip now catching up for candidacy in the operating table sooner than I expected.. Pinch

Though the warming up issue is a recurring problem, it’s now less problematic.. I just hope it would stay that way until I find an ultimate solution. So far all I’ve worked for took care 80% of it.. this to include changing setup and the vast expenditure’s of EJeing.. Evil Smile

luckily though I’m seeing hope for the upcoming ball change. I think the new ball and it’s larger size would surely favor me by a tad, and I just dearly hope so.. as I bid my chance to compete in US Para events.. and more so, if all goes well I'm up for the Paralympics in 2015-2016.

Well, crossing my fingers Wink






Edited by regiz.rugenz - 04/12/2014 at 1:27pm
Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°
Back to Top
regiz.rugenz View Drop Down
Super Member
Super Member
Avatar

Joined: 09/25/2013
Location: San Jose, CA.
Status: Offline
Points: 461
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote regiz.rugenz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2014 at 4:01pm
Originally posted by slowry slowry wrote:

Years later I sustained a very serious injury to my playing hand.  The operation involved a tendon transplant from my wrist as I recall. 


.
Try the Kinesiology Tape.. it worked for me for almost a month now, fixing my years of dilemma in my wrist. It's a stretchable cloth that you can tape onto your wrist and helps you keep the angle of the blade as you swing on your strokes.

You can see me wearing it in this videos.. you might need to scroll up a little bit for the first video..  here's link: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66653&PID=810538#810538



Edited by regiz.rugenz - 06/29/2014 at 4:15pm
Regiz°ᆗ
Rosewood_Carbon/Huricane_King   °FH:Vega_Japan/T64FX   °BH:OmegaV_Euro/Rasant
°°°°
Back to Top
Baal View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator


Joined: 01/21/2010
Location: unknown
Status: Offline
Points: 14335
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2014 at 6:03pm
Originally posted by slowry slowry wrote:

I have problems with needing a lot of warmup time.  Specifically regarding any kind of topspin strokes on the backhand.  I'm an older player, and I remember this issue cropping up as long as 8 years ago.  Where I'd play games with more casual players, and since they knew I needed significant warmup, they figured their best bet was to find a way for me to get zero warmup.

I won't go into my theories about why this problem is happening.  I have done some experimenting -- I'd especially like to figure out a way to alleviate the problem with something I could do away from the table.  Right now, using my robot to try and warm up, it seems to take 20 to 30 minutes to start to see improvement.  As it happens, in the coming weeks and months I'll likely be playing more matches against casual (and mostly weaker) players who never heard of anything like forehand vs FH and BH vs BH warmup.

Weeks ago I bought a 2.5 pound "dumb bell" and tried approximating my backhand stroke away from the table while holding the weight.  More recently I tried a very light resistance stretch band, so I could kind of give my wrist a "workout" -- I did about 200 backhand "shadow" strokes.  It does seem to help somewhat with the robot to really whack the ball with my FH for a while.  And helps to do what I'd call a "step around" drill with the robot, where the ball stays in the same direction, and I just alternate FH and BH.

I will soon try using heavier weights than 2.5 pounds -- alternating curls with wrist curls, I suppose -- wondering if the key is getting my wrist and that general area literally warm and the blood moving.  One thing that is a little help, is simply to whack lots of strong backhands off a wall (such as plasterboard).  I noticed that today Larry Hodges blogged about weighted rackets.  I may try to find a way to glue two together as he mentioned.

Recently I tried using my robot about six days in a row, where every day I hit something close to 1,000 backhands.  Wondering if the consecutive days would help me.  Didn't seem to.  

To try and describe how it feels:  When I first pick up a paddle and try backhands, I seem to have little confidence in where the ball will go.  As I keep working at it, maybe 10 or 15 minutes later, I start to have a more natural and unhindered follow-thru.  I've never noticed the usual TT stretches for the hand/wrist being much help.  But I never tried, for instance, doing them for ten times longer than typical.



Be careful!  This sounds like a quick way to repetitive use injury. 
Back to Top
NextLevel View Drop Down
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
Avatar

Joined: 12/15/2011
Location: Somewhere Good
Status: Offline
Points: 14822
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/29/2014 at 7:49pm
There is a school or thought that warns against kinesiology tape because the tape does not address further damage fro overuse and only deals with pain. Just mentioning that for what its worth. If pain is your main or only issue, it is okay, but that is rarely the case.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon
FH/BH: H3P 41D.
Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train...
Back to Top
benfb View Drop Down
Platinum Member
Platinum Member


Joined: 10/10/2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2709
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote benfb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06/30/2014 at 1:51am
Looking at this thread with all the discussion about ailments for the over 50 crowd (I'm one too), it strikes me how those under 40 don't really understand. They get an injury and then think "rehab for a few months and then back to work/play." For those over 50 it's more like one ailment leads to another, one surgery leads to another, and so on without end. You're never really well or fully functional. In effect, you're always playing with a handicap.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 1.594 seconds.

Become a Fan on Facebook Follow us on Twitter Web Wiz News
Forum Home | Go to the Forums | Forum Help | Disclaimer

MyTableTennis.NET is the trading name of Alex Table Tennis Ltd.

Copyright ©2003-2024 Alex Table Tennis Ltd. All rights reserved.