Types of Spin and serve returns

geardaddy wrote: NextLevel wrote: Guys,   No need to be rude to DDreamer.  This is either a terminology difference or just a difference in perspective.  We aren't going to beat DDreamer 3-0 (I wish!) or have a better loop because of it.   I think what DDreamer is saying is that pure side rotates as most of us know it, but side top is corkscrew in the general sideways direction of the ball motion and side back is corkscrew in in opposition to the sideways direction of the ball.  He takes the forward motion as a given while we think of the forward motion as being something other than what the spin is doing to the ball.   Of course, DDreamer's views are more nuanced than what I am saying but I am just trying to bridge the gap. Sure, no disagreement with what you're saying.  But, I think using the term "corkscrew" to describe the spin on a certain axis is more descriptive.  As others have already stated, we have 3D space with X, Y, and Z axis.  X is topspin/backspin, Y is sidespin, and Z is corkscrew spin.  DDreamer seems to want to call spin on both Y and Z to both be called "sidespin".

slevin wrote: Don't forget to say 'thank you' : http://pingpong.syncad.com/index.php/CorkscrewVersusSidespin2

I have been playing for 40 years and until today have never heard of the term 'corkscrew spin'. I have always treated corkscrew serves simply as varieties of sidespin serves because that's what they are! If you hit a corkscrew serve it spins sideways off your blade. Moreover the means of returning a corkscrew serve is fundamentally the same as you would return any sidespin serve. Have I miraculously had no particular trouble against corkscrew serves all these years despite being ignorant of a totally distinct dimension of spin? If it provides a practical purpose for you to call the spin on such serves 'corkscrew spin' as opposed to sidespin then go for it but I don't see the point. When a pupil asks me to go through the possible spins he will have to be able to handle when returning serves (which I think was also the intent behind the OPs original question) I will not have to give a separate module on 'corkscrew spin' (along with talk of arixes and dimensions) rather such spin will be adequately covered in the explanation dealing with returning sidespin.








Edited by DDreamer - 05/02/2014 at 2:57pm

"If it provides a practical purpose for you to call the spin on such serves 'corkscrew spin' as opposed to sidespin then go for it but I don't see the point."

Quite an interesting topic and no so trivial that one might think.

Problem is that while we may be inclined to describe a tt ball as a 3D object it looks to me that when we discuss its spin alone then more appropriate is treating it as a sphere (or surface of the sphere), which (as I just checked) is a kind of a 2-D object. We need 3-rd dimension (X,Y,Z coordinates) to describe how it moves through space ( forward, upward, etc); but to represent all possible axises of its rotation only two values (X and Y) are enough:

If we mark the point at the very top of the ball and imagine that it rotates through the axis that pierces this point then we achieve a spin which is simply and not controversially called a pure sidespin.  We can do only two thing with this point: move it forward (or backward which is the same but further along 2-d surface) or move it left(right). If we only move it 90 deg forward we achieve pure corskpin, if we go back and move it only 90 deg left we have pure back/topspin and looks to me that all other possible spins are a combinations of these side/back(top) variations. So corkspin does exists but only in this very special case and all of you are partially right. 

(Except that i counted 3 special cases times two of spin plus 8 combinations, which gives 14 total general spin categories :D:D)

edit: But i forgot to count no-spins.. But under these conditions its doesn't makes a difference along which axis the ball doesn't spin, so i would just add 1 for 15 total. 

Edited by Krantz - 05/02/2014 at 3:45pm

DDreamer wrote: I have always treated corkscrew serves simply as varieties of sidespin serves because that's what they are! If you hit a corkscrew serve it spins sideways off your blade. Moreover the means of returning a corkscrew serve is fundamentally the same as you would return any sidespin serve.

Edited by suds79 - 05/02/2014 at 3:18pm

Edited by Reinecke - 05/02/2014 at 3:31pm

Moving back slightly closer to the OP --

slevin wrote: Or am I writing while high on a Friday afternoon?

geardaddy wrote: larrytt wrote: Corkscrewspin is also sometimes called Deviation spin. That's the terminology used in the ITTF coaching handbooks. I believe they also break it down as topspin/backspin, sidespin left or right, and deviation spin left or right.  -Larry Hodges Hey LarryTT, the answer to the unique spin directions is 19, not 27.  Try this ... draw circles around the circumference of a ball, starting with the X, Y, Z axis first (so 3 circles around the ball).  Then draw circles that go halfway in-between each of those X, Y, and Z axis to represent the combinations between each group of 2 axis.  You will get 9 distinct circles (there is overlap in some of the combinations).  Thus each circle can spin either direction, and you get 18 different variations.  Add one more for the no-spin ball, and you now have 19 distinct variations.

Edited by larrytt - 05/05/2014 at 1:44pm

In contrast to DDreamer I have been aware of corkscrew spin and side spin for 40+ years
One of the problems here is that we are not allowing for the fact that usually corkscrew and sidespin are not usually pure but are blends of the 2 spins with the axis of spin tilted at around 45 degrees.
So ball can sometimes both curve through the air a bit and kick sideways off the table a bit.
But if you can visualise, Say, an HZW type(pure)corkscrew wide to rightie's fh
You'll notice that if the righty is hooking slightly then effectively he is receiving topspin. If the righty tries to fade it down the line, the more he comes to the left of the pole, the more he will experience backspin. If he gets right on the pole it will be little spin.
However as there is likely to be some element of normal side there may be some kick off the receiver's rubber which will be affected by whether racket angle is open or closed.
Its quite difficult to work out what the effective spin received merely by thinking about it.

geardaddy wrote: larrytt wrote: There really are 27 combinations of topspin/backspin, sidespin left and right, and corkscrewspin left and right. I'll list them in my blog on Monday. (I'm too busy right now, as noted in my blog this morning.) I've done this before, and I'm hoping I can find one of those listings rather than have to tediously write them out again. I think you may be missing the eight combinations of all three spins - such as a topspin-sidespin left-corkscrewspin left serve. (Yes, you can do all three. I'll explain this in my blog on Monday.)  -Larry Hodges Your example here demonstrates where the combinations in terms of groups of 2 axis overlap and are really the same thing.  A topspin/left-sidespin serve is really the same thing as a right-corkscrew/left-sidespin serve.  I don't think it's intuitive to think about the spin beyond the combination of 2 axis. An analogy would be compass points, where the first level is North, South, West, and East.  The second level is NorthWest, SouthWest, NorthEast, and SouthEast.  The 3rd level is North-by-NorthWest, West-by-NorthWest, and etc.  Well, I don't think it's useful to delineate further beyond that 2nd level when explaining the variations. Draw the circles on the ball like I described and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Edited by larrytt - 05/02/2014 at 4:40pm

in a absolutely perfect environment, corkscrew spin - you would be able to parry/hit it, and it would go straight back, since there would be no side or topspin (on any axis) to deal with....however, it would bounce sideways upon landing on the opponent's side?

in2spin wrote: in a absolutely perfect environment, corkscrew spin - you would be able to parry/hit it, and it would go straight back, since there would be no side or topspin (on any axis) to deal with....however, it would bounce sideways upon landing on the opponent's side? :)

suds79 wrote: BRS wrote: Is there a commonsense rule like if the ball is spinning this way touch it on this part to cancel the spin?  This question you mentioned immediately reminded me of something Joola coach Richard McAfee was talking about here from 8:09-8:50 Link directly to that point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8FYyIVpjww#t=08m09s or here's the whole video and you can go to that point.