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neon View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: t64 dethronement
    Posted: 05/29/2014 at 3:16pm

Reflections for rubber nature.

Why? Is there table tennis fans which thinking about it? Please explain me Wink. Why rubber (t 64) which is describe like "rubber with softer feel and more controlled" is rated like fastest rubber of butterfly tenergy assortment? Why rubber which more and more table tennis fans and professional players use on backhand is on throne of speed? Why? It's ridiculous my table tennis friends. To delete my laughter - explain. No with heart. With mind will be betterWink. Thank you very much.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/29/2014 at 3:35pm
softer topsheet combined with less reaction to incoming spin would be my guess.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 1:41am
Again softer! No do not say softer. This is the king of speed. The king can not be soft. King is hard. I very glad to your choise my frende. But lets return to .... speed. From ancient times in table tennis softer and more controled is eqyal to slower. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 2:01am
Sponge is hardish. Top sheet is softer than other tenergies though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 2:02am
Speed comes from the sponge not the top sheet.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 2:24am
Hi. The sponge of four tenergies are equal. Sponge hardnes or t25, t05, t80 and t64 is equal WinkSmile.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 2:37am
Originally posted by neon neon wrote:

Reflections for rubber nature.

Why? Is there table tennis fans which thinking about it? Please explain me Wink. Why rubber (t 64) which is describe like "rubber with softer feel and more controlled" is rated like fastest rubber of butterfly tenergy assortment? Why rubber which more and more table tennis fans and professional players use on backhand is on throne of speed? Why? It's ridiculous my table tennis friends. To delete my laughter - explain. No with heart. With mind will be betterWink. Thank you very much.


My theory and i have been using T 64 for at least about a year -

1) Top sheet thickness is perfect with the combination of sponge and it works like charm in short game over the table flicks and pushes with really great spin and depth on pushes.
2) BH stroke is typically shorter than FH and in order to compensate for the stroke mechanism but not forgo speed lot of people like T 64 on BH . 
3) Drives work really great with T64 both at the table and few feet away on BH among other tenergies. Most people don't loop away from the table on their back hand consistently but block and drive.

All these mentioned i wouldn't be surprised why it would be considered great on BH for many trained players.


Edited by right2niru - 05/30/2014 at 2:39am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 3:47am
Thank you right2niru. If you have experience with other membership of big four (t25, t05, t64). Whether t64 in your opinion is tenergy king of speed? Thank you very much friend. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 3:51am
Originally posted by neon neon wrote:

Thank you right2niru. If you have experience with other membership of big four (t25, t05, t64). Whether t64 in your opinion is tenergy king of speed? Thank you very much friend. 

I have tried everything on Tenergy series but T25 including their FX and in that regard i could say T64 is great for back hand. 

I actually like it on 1.9 on my BH than 2.1 however that is subjective of one's feel.


Edited by right2niru - 05/30/2014 at 3:52am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 4:05am
Smile Tks. By the way t64 is about 46 grams cut to 157/150. Can the speed king of tenergy staff compete against big leons from other brand which is about Cry 50 grams. For comparison deferent in weight between "normal" rubber and softer version is about 4 grams Big smile. Thanks.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 8:12am
Originally posted by neon neon wrote:

Reflections for rubber nature.

Why? Is there table tennis fans which thinking about it? Please explain me Wink. Why rubber (t 64) which is describe like "rubber with softer feel and more controlled" is rated like fastest rubber of butterfly tenergy assortment? Why rubber which more and more table tennis fans and professional players use on backhand is on throne of speed? Why? It's ridiculous my table tennis friends. To delete my laughter - explain. No with heart. With mind will be betterWink. Thank you very much.


I don't think T64 is more controlled than the other Tenergys. Regarding service return, T64 is the worst  in Tenergy series since it is the fastest.
T64 is the fastest and keeps its speed glue effect more than any other rubber. The pip structure compared to the common Tenergy sponge makes it the fastest Tenergy. It is not softer than T05, the feeling is softer because the pips are not so close as on T05. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 9:11am
Stavtros is absolutely correct.  There is a very widespread consensus that T64 is the least controllable member of the series and it is definitely the fastest and seems well suited to play away from the table.  There are countless threads on this here and at other sites around the world.   That is the simplest answer to the OPs original question.  I have tried them all very extensively and my experience is the same as what the vast majority of people report.

When T64 is used with thinner sponge like 1.9 it also appears much better suited for chopping, again maybe because it is good for playing shots with long trajectory.  I am no chopper, but this is based on reports from people who do, and also what high level choppers actually use.  For that purpose at least, choppers say that it is T64 that is more controlled, and since they tend to attack from further away, that suits them also..

T64 also has the softest topsheet of the four members of the series.  The sponge is the same for all four (excluding FX versions, which have a softer sponge).  Therefore it can't be accurate to say that overall softness always means slower, it obviously depends in part on whether hardness or softness is coming from the topsheet or the sponge.  It has always amazed me that the pip shapes and spacing have such a big effect on the way these things play. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 9:21am
A good friend of mine, a former member of US national team, and former-Yugoslavia junior national team, broke his old Cresail and couldn't find another good one (because they stopped making that blade many years ago).  He loved T64 with that heavy all-wood blade, he tried T05 but didn't like it.  He plays exactly like a left-handed version of Andrej Gacina if you can imagine that; a classic Eastern European looper from fairly far off the table.  Very spinny, very powerful. 

He was trying all kinds of things looking for a new setup.  He tried a Viscaria one day (mine actually), loved it, and bought several, and even managed to find some heavy ones.  However, as time went on, over the next month or so, he realized he was not adjusting well to the extra speed of the ALC blade with T64.  He switched to T05, which is a bit slower, and problem solved.  

The actual differenes between the rubbers are a bit more subtle than just saying faster or slower.  On a composite blade, and probably others too, T05 tends to have more spin and a higher arc and the ball doesn't go as far as T64.  It pushes heavier and I think it is easier to control on returns of serve and stuff like that, but T64 makes flicking easier.  At the same time, people who are used to other rubbers sometimes prefer T64 to T05 the first time they try it because the high arc of T05 is pretty weird at first if you are used to regular ESN tensors.  Also, a lot of people prefer T64 on BH side (myself included, although I use T80).  I am not sure why I prefer 80 or 64 on BH side, I just do.  I notice a lot of Chinese players who would never use anything but Hurricane on their FH will still use T64 on BH, or sometimes T05FX. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 2:42pm

Thanks Stavros (hey baal Stavros is correct , not Stavtros J) and Baal. Two knights are deffend honor of t64. Thank you friends.

Softer and more controlled is from Butterfly brand not from me mu frende.

 

T64 is the fastest and keeps its speed glue effect more than any other rubber” – nonsense. I hope You realize this nonsense. Like others tenergies t64 keeps speed glue effect equal.

 

The pip structure compared to the common Tenergy sponge makes it the fastest Tenergy” – full nonsense. Why do you think that the pip structure makes t64 the fastest tenergy?

Because distance between pips is large? – full nonsense. If on the sponge remain only one pips, may be it is will be the fastest one J

 

Do not see any use to comment stavros any more.

 

Lets see Baal.

 

Butterfly trick – same sponge, various pips structure confused many tt friends. If top sheets will be equal – sponge different. All be OK. Soft sponge – slower rubber. Simple and understandable.

 

But now when the top sheet is softer – knights says this is the faster. – full nonsense.

 

Use mind mu frende. Not bring along down to the river.

TT rubber is like mechanical spring. More pips – more energy and speed. If pips are smaller and with big distance = no enough energy, no enough speed.

Now some others reviews.

 

“Good rubber. Not as fast as butterfly claimes. Best for backhand.” – danlaabraten from ttdb.

 

“Currently using on my backhand, T64 didn't quite make it to my forehand not fast enaugh and doesn't generate as much spin as I would like. T64 similar in many ways with Hexer+, but has higher throw angle (which is good for openning loops) and better dutability.” – BlackQueen from ttdb.

 

NOW some friends of table tennis who use t25 and t64 …. Please friends tale us which is faster? Thank you very much.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 3:20pm

More one opinion.

"I notice a lot of Chinese players who would never use anything but Hurricane on their FH will still use T64 on BH, or sometimes T05FX." - says Baal.

"Still use t64 on BH, or sometimes t05 fx" Mhammmm........ Why the knight Baal do a connection between t64 (the king of speed) and t05 fx ----- which is softer rubber and it is SLOWER ...... SLOWER. 


For "Sapienti sat."

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 5:33pm
Well neon, I am not defending honor of T64, I don't use it and even if I did, would not feel the need to defend my choice.  I am telling you how T05 and T64 compare, based not just on what I say, but summarizing views of an a large number of people who have commented on these rubbers for years on multiple websites.  You can search them.  Essentially everyone who uses it says T64 is faster than T05, and the only thing different is the pip structure.  Actually I have a hard time knowing what you are saying because it is mostly unintelligible except that you seem to be angry about something. Not sure what.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/30/2014 at 11:43pm
Sorry for a little bit vulgar tone colleague, had a heavy day, sorry again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 2:12am
For some reason neon reminds me of Igorponger :D
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 2:35am

Hello friends.

From the beginning topic was for “honor” of t64 Smile. I wanted to dispel a misconception.

As mentioned before table tennis rubber is a kind mechanical spring. Big four tenergies

(t64, t80, t05 and t25) are no exception.  Tenergy rubbers are not magic like many table

Tennis fans think Smile. As strong is mechanical spring – much energy can store and restore

after hit. Energy do not come from some magic in tenergy rubbers Smile.

As mentioned before in other brand rubbers all is so simple: the same top sheet different

sponge. More material in sponge (sponge become hard) more energy can store in this rubber.

For that harder rubber is describe as rubber with more speed.

Tibhar 1q rubber for example. 1q sound has less material in sponge (sponge become softer) – rubber can store a little bit lees energy – rubber describe with lees speed.

1q – in the middle and 1q xd – with more material in the sponge is fastest one of three. Simple isn’t it?

It is pure physics. Table tennis rubbers are not magic as we both want.

When we increase distance between pips – less material in the top sheet.

Let increase distance between pips … ten times. Is this new tenergy …. May be tenergy 110

Smile can store more energy than tenergy with distance between pips …. 0.1 mm?

It is physically impossible!!!

Here is no question about curve of ball or dwell time or speed of players hand!!!

More strong is spring – more energy can store and restore.

That is why t25 is the fastest tenergy. That is why it is harder and heavier.

Here is no question about personal Preference or style of play.

Thank you very much.



Edited by neon - 05/31/2014 at 6:20am
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 2:39am
Originally posted by t64t64t64 t64t64t64 wrote:

For some reason neon reminds me of Igorponger :D


Probably they both like Stolichnaya.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 3:51am
 Yep. Hey dude they will organize us evening lectures on the dangers of alcohol Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 12:12pm
same tenergy sponge, but the topsheet combination makes T64 softer. just as with FX versions, softer feel makes it easier to control.

when identifying ease in control with harder rubbers, it is usually attributed to less effort required in driving the ball since it'll rebound the ball easier. it's like passive blocking in front of a robot - super easy.

for pro players, guiding and carrying the ball is more active in their strokes even when blocking. to constantly adjust angle, spin, touch, it takes more effort but you achieve the output you want regardless of the incoming ball. softer rubber allows for easier spin grip and more dwell, where you have more control rather than the ball kicking quickly away, as with harder rubber. this is control. 

while speed impacts control, it's not dependent on it. T64 can be the "king of speed" and also have better control than the other tenergies. 

imo, T64 is the easiest to control. it's speed is balanced by a softer feel, less spin. you can block short or long, and it doesn't feel as heavy when returning spin. vs T05, you can really feel the grind and pressure when returning heavy spin.


Edited by kurokami - 05/31/2014 at 12:16pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 2:38pm

Hello friends, 

T64 is slowest rubber of big four. Control and speed are inverses. On old butterfly blades is writen:

on left: more control

on right: more speed


And write carefully what I says in previous post.

Speed do not come from nowherе. Can not bring soft and weak bow and shoot away. It is physically impossible. Know what physics right?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by neon neon wrote:

Hello friends, 

T64 is slowest rubber of big four. Control and speed are inverses. On old butterfly blades is writen:

on left: more control

on right: more speed


And write carefully what I says in previous post.

Speed do not come from nowherе. Can not bring soft and weak bow and shoot away. It is physically impossible. Know what physics right?


Seriously, you're beginning to simplify a complicated issue.  Bivalent logic applied to issues with grey areas often results in this kind of thinking.  Just because a definition of speed and control that was applied to blades is useful doesn't mean that it is the only definition of speed and control that matters or applies to other situations and that other factors are not important.

T64 is the fastest in terms of shot trajectory (longer than T05) and catapult (catapults more than T 25).  It is not the fastest in terms of spin reactivity mostly because the longer trajectory makes it easier to hit/block with than T05 with linear precision (T05 has a non-linear blocking behavior that makes it better for counterlooping even over the table).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 3:00pm

Can we consider that tt rubber is kind of mechanical spring? Or it is some thing different? Smile

Can you get out of table tennis and think rationally?

There is no point ( says this again and again) of ball curve , dwell time or speed of players hand.

There is point of pure speed.

Can not bring soft and weak bow and shoot away. That is impossible.

If bring back example with tibhar 1q, like says that 1q sounds is king of speed among three 1q rubbers. - again bring back to tt - for hopefully understanding Smile.



Edited by neon - 05/31/2014 at 3:16pm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 3:45pm

Hello freinds,

And that control and speed are inverses - not my idea.

Browse for example.... donic m rubbers.

m3 has least speed and largest control

m1 has biggest speed and least control.

I played with t64, t05 and t25.

With t64 play very easy - good rubber.

With t25 ... hard to play. It is harder, less control and much heavier. When hit powerful generate very big speed - the ball goes somewhere.

Do you understand that t25 is fastest? Smile - neon knight is still here.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 4:07pm

T64 has weakest top sheet. T25 has strongest top sheet. Why do you thing that rubber with weakest top sheet can store more energy than rubber with strongest top sheet? It is fondly my tt friends. To move out brain cells.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 4:10pm
My friend you are trying to use the mechanics but you forgot to mention that a mechanical spring can be compressed more or less considering:
1. the material
2. the force you exert on it
3. the lenght of the spring.
The material is the same in t05, t64, t80 and also the thickness of the pips (except t25 who has thickest pips), the force you exert is the same (it is the ball pressing on topsheet) but the lenght of those pips are very different t64 has the longest pips in whole tenergy series and the biggest distances between them so that is the reason ball can compressed very easily those pips giving you the sense of soft but in the same time ball entering more in the topsheet is thrown with a bigger force resulting in higher speed. I did say nothing about sponge beeing the same.
I think you understand now the point and besides that do not forget: you have more pips in t05 than in t64 but they are shorter and even if they are more numerous the ball will impact only very few of them during the shot. Good luck.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 4:14pm

Hey Igor, tonight I drink “Russian standard” with tomato juice. Pure speed my friend.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05/31/2014 at 4:18pm
The trouble is Neon is you are going on theory while players are going on their feelings , experience, and gained knowledge , then adding in Butterfly's information on spin and speed


but if you believe the 64 is the slowest that's your right, if you never use this rubber then stop guessing
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