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LP Push-Drive of Underspin

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mjamja View Drop Down
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    Posted: 07/17/2014 at 3:47pm
A friend of mine is having some problem with implementing one of the tactics he wants to use. I have watched him, but it is not obvious to me what is going wrong so I thought I would ask here.

What he is trying to do is serve short wide underspin to opponent's Bh, twiddle, and if he gets a push return use his LP to hit topspin to the opponent's Fh corner. If the ball is returned to him anywhere from the middle of the table to his Bh he is trying to use what I call a push-drive stroke. It looks just like he is very aggressively pushing back, but with a less open blade angle than with inverted. If the returned ball is not very deep, he often makes contact over the table. Of course instead of sending back the opponent's underspin he generates a pretty fast topspin counter.

The problem is that he just can not seem to generate the ball speed he needs to make that a really effective shot. If he directs his shot back cross-court to the opponent's Bh corner you can hear a very solid contact sound and the returned ball is quite fast. However, when he tries to go down-the-line to the opponent's Fh the contact sound is very muted and his shot lacks speed. Sometimes I can see that he is kind of mis-hitting the ball toward the edge of the racket, but even when he appears to be contacting it in the center the ball is just weak. Every now and then he makes the same kind of contact sound on the DTL as he does going cross-court and sure enough he gets a winner to the Fh corner.

Is there something in particular I should be looking for that would cause this difference in solid contact between the cross-court and down-the-line versions of this push-drive stroke?

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as he is trying to get ready for a tournament in a couple of weeks.

Mark
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Egghead View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 4:12pm
What is the LP yr fd using?
I can have a killer push with 388D-1, ck531a, talent  and  talon, but have a suicide push with 979, tsp and neptune, all with the same push-drive stroke.

Edited by Egghead - 07/17/2014 at 4:12pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mts388 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 4:30pm
I hope I followed your thread correctly.  He may not have the blade closed enough.  It's also possible that he is not chopping down hard enough. 

I'm still learning how to use my pips, but I still have a long way to go.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 7:09pm
He is using Joola Octopus.  

Since he hits it so hard and solid when he goes cross-court I do not think it is a problem with the pips.  He is doing something different when he tries to go down-the-line but I just can not tell what it is that is making his contact much weaker when he hits that direction.

Thanks

Mark


Edited by mjamja - 07/17/2014 at 7:17pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 7:16pm
Could be that somehow the blade angle is different when he goes down-the-line vs hitting cross-court.  I will try to pay more attention to that next time out.

He is not chopping down at all since he is trying to hit with maximum topspin on his return.   I will try to see if perhaps he is doing some chopping on the down-the-line shot that he is not doing on the cross-court one.

Thanks.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 7:41pm

Mark, look again what your friend is doing to make the ball go down the line.

Generally, you got two ways to set your body up for a cross corner shot and be able from that position to go down the line as a surprise.
 
One of the two ways to do it is to step in and at the very last instant open the wrist to send the ball the "other" way down the line. A player who moves into position and has weight transfer from the stepping in can still lay a decent amount of wood on the ball. The very last moment sudden opening of the wrist right before impact is what brings the surprise. It is a good way to execute a dead flick and a regular flick over the table too, possible also for an angled sudden short push or fast long push for that manner. What elements are important are stepping into position, wide base, low enough to use the body as a base for balance, stability, strength (with momentum from moving in) and control.
 
Where some players go wrong is messing up the position or timing. if one tries to do this shot without a stable wide base and weight transfer from moving into position, the resultant shot is usually one done without much power or control, often impacting the ball too far away from body which takes away the control and power. Just as bad is a player who tries that shot and is playing too upright. No power or control comes from body with feet too close together and impact far away from body. That causes only the shoulder for stability and power and it is mighty difficult to time the swing using mostly the shoulder muscles.
 
The other way to hit a shot down the line when you setup your body to hit cross court is to simply wait a little longer for the ball to come back further in your hitting zone. If you are in good position and stance and everything right like you do when hitting a normal offensive shot, you can apply nearly full power to the shot and it will be every bit as controllable. Some players try to incorporate some kind of side swiping motion and mess up the timing. The side swipe is not needed to send the ball to down the line, but adding a little can help it tail away from the opponent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 7:53pm
To do that shot with LP, he will need to open his blade and make very solid contact hitting through the ball while it is high. Trying to do that shot with an inverted like closed blade angle is a fail. With a sponged LP, it is possible to make a loop like stroke and generate a surprising amount of topspin, but it isn't near as heavy as a loop and the shot is relatively slow. Opening up the blade, swinging forward, impacting the ball when it is high, and making very solid contact are staples of the Korean Punch Blocker Brigade when faced with an incoming push their pips, although they do this almost exclusively on BH wing.
 
have him serve underspin to you and you give him a few pushes to his FH and have him try waiting for the ball to come a little more deeper into his hitting zone before pulling the trigger and have him hit it the same way he successfully hits cross-court (but hit the ball down the line) to see how that works for him.
 
Setting up to go cross-court, then suddenly go down the line is a staple of my serve/attack game. When an opponent realized he just mis-read the spin and popped it up more than he wanted or hit is longer than he wanted, he will shyt bricks and want to try defending the often used and safer cross-court angle. Often, they scurry over that way before you hit, making it even easier to wait just a bit more for the ball after you moved in for the kill, but you waited a tad more and drilled it down the line by them instead of cross court to them.
 
It is really important to be in position (like it is for any shot) and also to be moving into position in time and on balance. (not upright either) Trying to do this shot when too far back (even if it is 1/2 step too far back from table) results in a fail or multiple fails (impacting the ball too far in front while ball is falling) (No power control and often ball is hit to much upwards or it is already too low to aggressively hit)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 7:59pm
Maybe even try to allow him a few good hits cross court first using same drill, then ask him to wait on ball to go deeper into his hitting zone before pulling the trigger while ball is still high. That will keep him focused on doing everything the same successful he just did it while isolating just the one thing needed to hit down the line with pace and control.
 
Be sure he is not getting too close to the ball, standing too much, or is too far from ball at impact.
 
If he is trying to do the open wrist at last moment thing, be clear to him that while it is indeed possible to do it that way with decent enough power, it takes a lot more advanced timing and skill to execute that shot with power and control than simply waiting a little longer to hit the ball from a deeper position in the effective strike zone.


Edited by BH-Man - 07/17/2014 at 8:02pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/17/2014 at 8:25pm
Thanks Bh-Man for all the good info.  We practice tomorrow so I will try out some of those ideas with him.

Mark
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote heavyspin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2014 at 10:46am
I've found with that my LP works best against incoming backspin when I contact the ball on the rise and make a quick short stroke. After the ball has passed its peak height, I lose control so I just push it back with a long stroke and follow through (unless I've anticipated a push to my bh and have twiddled to inverted). 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pushblocker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2014 at 1:46pm

Octopus is too slow for that type of game.. The only rubbers that truly work excellent for that stroke are:

Dragon Talon, Snowflake, Tibhar Grass DtecS, 388D-1 quattro and SWORD Scylla.. Maybe Globe 979 but that's about it. It needs to be soft, springy pips that have the advantage that they slow  down the ball on blocks but accelerate the ball on aggressive pushes, keeping the dwell time (contact time) to a minimum allowing maximum reversal and fast shots.
 
Check this video..
 
 
2010 Florida State Champion

Dr. Neubauer Firewall Plus Blade with DHS G666 1.5mm on forehand Giant Dragon Talon National Team OX on backhand
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2014 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

.....If he directs his shot back cross-court to the opponent's Bh corner you can hear a very solid contact sound and the returned ball is quite fast.....he tries to go down-the-line to the opponent's Fh the contact sound is very muted and his shot lacks speed....

I re-read it. It seems it can be timing issue as well. I believe the stoke is little too fast on the "slow shot", just miss the sweet spot.
Aurora ST: Rhyzm / Talent OX
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07/18/2014 at 6:34pm
Originally posted by Pushblocker Pushblocker wrote:

Octopus is too slow for that type of game.. The only rubbers that truly work excellent for that stroke are:


Dragon Talon, Snowflake, Tibhar Grass DtecS, 388D-1 quattro and SWORD Scylla.. Maybe Globe 979 but that's about it. It needs to be soft, springy pips that have the advantage that they slow  down the ball on blocks but accelerate the ball on aggressive pushes, keeping the dwell time (contact time) to a minimum allowing maximum reversal and fast shots.

 


The Bulgarian Push Blocker reputed to be 2300+ uses Octopus OX.
Hntr Fl / 4H & BH Xiom Sigma Pro 2 2.0
Yinhe T-2 / 4H Xiom Sig Pro 2 2.0 BH Xiom Omega IV Elite Max
Gam DC / 4H DHS Hurricane 8 39deg 2.1 BH GD CC LP OX
HARDBAT / Hock 3 ply / Frenshp Dr Evil OX
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