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Which ball should our club buy to test? |
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TurboZ
Gold Member Joined: 05/31/2012 Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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Don't know why but I see no significant reduction of spin many talk about with the new DHS/DF balls. Actually I have a hard time returning short and strong backspin serves and always end up to the net. Also blocking of top spin keep overshooting off the table. Going back to celluloid and things are back to normal. No such problem with Palio/XSF seamless either. I believe the reduction of spin is obvious with seamless but not quite with seamed new balls. Might need a new set of technique to suit them. Will see in more practice.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Ok, lineup32. We will revisit in a few months since you want to act like all the precedents don't matter. The only thing that can change is an ITTF mandate. The ITTF has forced similar changes in the past., so if you decide to ignore those when predicting how things will turn out, that is your own prerogative.
The vacation was great - thanks! |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Most of your points agree with me, but are written in ways that make it sound like you are disagreeing with me. If the offensive player can generate more difficult shots to defend with one kind of ball, the practice is better for the player who is defending against those shots. Hence the cellular ball favors the looper and the plastic ball favors the defender in match play, but in practice, the cellular ball gives the defender/blocker better/more difficult practice and the plastic ball gives the looper/server more challenge. There's no need to write epistles that sound like you don't agree when you largely do. When you don't, it is because your logic is flawed and you aren't being consistent (the plastic ball is harder to generate heavy topspin with so I don't know how you can conclude that it is easier to loop - you probably mean it is easier to do a basic topspin return, but that is not quite the same thing as being able to generate heavy topspin).
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Sometimes, it is not so much spin reduction (though the fact that the ball is bigger does mean it is less spinny) as that the flight path of the celluloid ball reacted more to corkscrew spin elements. Therefore, people often had to move their paddles more to get into the right blocking position and this allowed close to the table looping to be effective, especially sidespin looping/flicking. Now, you need far more distance to get the plastic ball to break when sidespin looping (and the break is nothing compared to what was possible with the cellular ball). So banana flicks and sidespin loops are less effective and easier to track and block.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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Ooh, I can see why it might have contracted itself, I left a word out. I was meant to say looping is easier because of the less spin in oncoming shots. For example, looping a flat heavy underspin. Remember, it takes 2 to tango. What makes a shot harder to achieve is the type of ball you are facing. The plastic balls are easier to face due to lesser spin and speed... This why I still prefer celluloid balls for training. I can still generate heavy top spins with the plastic balls but it is relatively weaker compared with the celluloid balls, though I am yet to use the new 40+ rubbers. But as I was saying too: 1) celluloid balls still have benefits over plastic balls. Faster and more spinny oncoming balls. 2) if your tournament uses plastic balls only then you might want to focus on plastic balls, though keep point 1 in mind. |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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If you must get plastic balls now, then get half a dozen of each brand. Test them out at the club, see which is most preferred. I use the DHS 3 star, quite a good feeling except very poor durability. Edited by hithithit - 07/26/2014 at 12:50am |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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HOW SOON ??? DHS is great !! Can't tell any difference from orthodox celluloid. as seen on the video.. Perhaps a bit slower rebounce on the table ??? Again, blocking play is some luxury with plastic. I like plastic. Mr.SHARARA is the man to celebrate in fact he did a hip of good for all nonloopers like myself, yes. DHS is my best target ball, but no sooner than price discount is offered by a seller. HOW SOON, that's the question. Yes. Edited by igorponger - 07/26/2014 at 3:14pm |
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rliu
Member Joined: 11/10/2013 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 67 |
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EVERYONE wait for the Nittaku Made in Japan Ball. It is VERY similar to the current ball because I have tried it. The ball is pretty good and won't make huge differences. It hasen't come out yet but it should be worth it.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Based on the physics of the situation, a ball that is slightly larger than the current celluloid will have to play somewhat differently (as we see with Chinese poly-balls). It will have to be slower and less spinny. Hopefully the Nittaku ones will have better durability, but make no mistake, they will not be cheap, and there will still be some adjustment. Some people will like the new balls better, some people will really hate them. It is still the same sport, but the ball moves and bounces differently. |
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TurboZ
Gold Member Joined: 05/31/2012 Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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Initial test of Nittaku Premium 40+ balls said that it actually bounce higher than celluloid and seems unbreakable. 2 opposite characteristics of current DHS's weakness. Major gripe for me is the lower than normal bounce and reluctant to go forward. More so with 1 star DHS. If Nittaku's final product is that good then I am willing to pay more. Too bad DHS is already close to $2 each, I am afraid Nittaku premium could hit $3 or more a piece. Can't imagine my reaction if someone step on it!
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Higher bounce is fine. It will still spin lesst and travel differently through the air, as with current DHS ball, and ITTF specs for the new ball mean it will also be heavier than current celluloid. Of course, greater durability would be a good thing. For sure it will cost more. Nittaku has always cost more. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Unfortunately, these specs are only temporary till 01.01.2016, apparently to make players to swallow the bait and switch to plastic. After 01.01.2016 the old bad specifications will return automatically and we'll have to enjoy using the real crap: "Temporary amendmend for non-celluloid balls ...a temporary release of three specifications for non-celluloid balls is decided: Weight, bounce and hardness. ... It is valid until January 1, 2016. At this date, after all development is completed, the original specifications will apply." http://www.ittf.com/stories/pictures/T3_Ball_forBoD2014_final.pdf, page 4 |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I checked six of the new Joola 40+ balls in my laboratory using calipers and an analytical balance late last week. 5/6 meet the 2016 specs (barely, they were all barely at the high end of that range), and one was heavier even then current amended specs allow. So, maybe not so much change coming after 2016. Interestingly, all of the DHS celluloid balls I weighed were under current spec weight for celluloid. The balance I used is calibrated yearly and we use it for weighing milligram quantities of substances. The other stuff (roundness, hardness, etc.) I can't measure. But as much as I really do not like the rule change, I think that our current experience with these balls will not change that much after Jan 2016. At least I hope not. Again, I know there is no impending worldwide ban on celluloid, and I suspect the motives behind the change, but now in practical terms I am trying to figure out some practical things going forward, like when to start playing exclusively with the new ones, since I am guessing in the not too distant future newly made celluloid balls will cease to exist.
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TurboZ
Gold Member Joined: 05/31/2012 Status: Offline Points: 1298 |
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The spin and speed of DHS balls does not bother me much but the low bounce is. It gave me the same feeling as playing with a toy ball that drops fast and not going forward. The bounce is mostly fine with DHS once you go full speed rally with hard hitting, but real pain in soft touch push and block and there lies the biggest difference between seamed new and old. Spin is less alright but the test also said that if there is spin then it won't dissipate and goes with true flight path probably due to the extra weight. That could be something loopers love. Is that what DHS is suppose to make in the first place? How can a ball bounce lower than celluloid be accepted? |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Well, it will for the simple reason that different specifications mean different balls. Since the specifications after 01.01.2016 will be automatically different, the new new balls will be different as well. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Well, whatever the new balls are like, we are going to play with them, no matter how good or bad or ugly they are.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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I do not think so. The example of Germany shows that almost 100% will play with celluloid balls. It is possible that the plastic ball swindle will be gone next year. |
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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========================= I think NextLevel is right. When all ITTF sanctioned tournaments switch to plastic balls - beginning in 2015, the rest of the world will gradually follow. It takes some time. It will be the same as 40mm balls replaced 38mm balls.
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skip3119
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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The date is not 2015, it is 2014. Secondly, the example of Germany shows the opposite, as I said. Thirdly, there is no legal reason for the ITTF sanctioned tournaments to switch to plastic balls, because the ITTF rule states: "3.02.01.02 ...the choice of equipment shall be as laid down by the Association in whose territory the competition is held, selected from brands and types currently approved by the ITTF." The Association in whose territory the competition is held can, of course, be blackmailed or bribed or whatever to choose a plastic ball despite celluloid ball being legal, but nevertheless plastic balls remain very unpopular, which gives hope that the plastic ball swindle will be gone next year. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Let's hope you are right, though I think you will be quite wrong. The German example only shows that use of the plastic ball can be reasonably delayed, but once the Pros use the balls, there will be nothing left to discuss unless the balls behave so terribly that they cannot be used. No one has decried the latest set of balls that much - I hate them for my style but I will not quit TT because of them.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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There have been enough reports describing plastic ball as bad, so they are terrible enough, if you wish to use the term terrible. Note that plastic ball are known for a very long time and failed twice, in 1970s and in 1980s. The Pros can be forced to use them one way or another, right, but the overall failure will lead to the end of the plastic ball swindle. The clever trick to allow "better" plastic balls temporarily will not help, people are not that stupid. Edited by Mastermind - 07/27/2014 at 2:44pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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By and large, the reviews on the latest balls have been positive - I am not sure where you get your reviews from. Baal has pointed out that all the DHS balls were weighted below tolerance, which means there there is margin to use more plastic. Nittaku is perfecting its formula. The Chinese team has used the balls in practice and is adapting its players to it. If the World Cup is successful, I am not sure why people wouldn't change.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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There has been a lot of guerrilla marketing on the forums lately.
You can use a potato and adapt to it. The point is that where the people can choose the ball free, they choose celluloid. As I said, e.g. Germany. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Because, as I hope, people are not that stupid and will not fall into the the trap of temporarily till 01.01.2016 changed specifications. By the way, the fact alone that someone illegally changed plastic ball specifications in the Technical Leaflet T3 is a significant evidence for "normal" plastic balls being crap. Additional evidence is the fact that someone in the ITTF is trying to force plastic balls on players by allegedly choosing plastic balls for the international competitions. Note that that is a violation of the ITTF rule 3.02.01.02: "...the choice of equipment shall be as laid down by the Association in whose territory the competition is held, selected from brands and types currently approved by the ITTF." |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Today I played with made in Japan Nittaku 40+ ball (Jim Butler had one). It is much much much better than the Joola or the XSF ball. Bounce is identical to a Nittaku regular ball. Still slightly slower and less spinny than current celluloid balls, but a big improvement over the 40+ balls I had tried before this during the last week. That is the brand that I hope becomes the standard. As things stand now, their product is clearly superior.
By the way, IMHO, the XSF ball is a joke. Nobody will want to use that one. As for guerrilla marketing (if I can guess what this is supposed to mean) I think I have been as outspoken in opposition to these new balls as anyone on this forum, and nobody pays me for what I write. Of course nobody gives a crap what I have to say either. The world continues to change in many ways no matter what I think. Realistically, we need to move on now. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14845 |
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Baal, can you weigh it or get someone to so we can check the tolerances?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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@Baal,
How long did you play for? I am assuming the Nittaku Made In Japan ball did not break during play, did Jim tell you how durable they are? I am just looking for some light in the tunnel, the DHS 3 star poly balls just don't last. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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We hit for about 30 min while he waited for his partner to show up. Jim only has the one ball and it is the first time he had used it. It didn't break then. So unfortunately I can't tell you anything about durability. So no light yet.
In our club we have a red Gerflor and padding on the walls, so balls tend to last a bit longer so even with more time with it, it might not be easy to tell. |
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hithithit
Super Member Joined: 07/02/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 319 |
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@Baal,
Ok thanks. The poly ball I had broke in just about 30 minutes of use. I think the trigger was largely because of me smacking it flat onto the net post once when I tried a swerving curve shot, as a few shots after there was a massive explosion sound when my hitting partner did a drive. To ensure this wasn't an isolated incident, I followed up with various friends whom I gave a poly ball each to, and they too said theirs had broke and did not last long. Otherwise, awesome ball to play with. Edited by hithithit - 07/27/2014 at 10:35pm |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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In increase in cost and reduction in durability will have a significant impact on smaller clubs. I do hope durability will improve and prices will come down over time.
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