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Nittaku Premium 40+ balls (Japan) |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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NON COSTLY NITTAKU PREMIUM IS EXPECTED NEXT YEAR 2015.
While on duty at WC2014, Tokyo this May, a fellow umpire of Spain happened to purchase some promo samples of Nittaku40+ plastic, a sole ball in a paper box.. The Nittaku representative, sitting there advised intimately
TILL then, no mass supply of Nittaku Premium is expected someplace overseas.. Nitttaku's domestic factory is very restricted production capacity of the plastic plus very costly manpower, and overly expensive end product as a result. Transferring nittaku plant to china looks very promising. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Prediction-
US Nationals will end up using the Nittaku SHA 40+ ball because the premium balls will either not be available by then or will not be available widely enough across the country. We know from USATT website that they are under contract with nittaku to supply balls and this really is the only choice. Again this is my prediction-not inside info. IF I was going to Vegas this year I would buy a bunch of the SHA 40+ made in China Nittaku and practice with them exclusively. Since i am not I am staying w XSF for now till this shakes out. What balls are being used at ITTF tournaments? |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Which are the same as XSF balls, as far as I understand, right? |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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This would explain why number of balls is so limited. |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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who knows but with 5 different patented balls chances are differences will be evident. Its very early in the cycle and several players like Baal are early adoptee's but the vast number of players have no or little connection with these balls nor do they have the time to practice and adapt to various spins and bounces which is why most club players will focus on one ball or at least one type.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Compared to what? Compared to celluloid? Almost nobody at my club would disagree with you, least of all me. Compared to a DHS or Joola seamed 40+ ball? very few people at my club who have had much experience with both balls would agree with you. This of course assumes that Yinhe ball is basically a XSF with a different stamp. The XSF ball at least bounces off the table and they last pretty long. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Yes, that is true. Having this much variation at present is a very bad thing. ITTF argues that the balls are very similar to celluloid, but they are enough different that it takes some time to get a feel. (Adham Sharara says different things about why this change was needed depending on what day of the week and what crap he is peddling, the latest thing he said was that they made the ball larger to make it easier to see on TV . There is am ITTF document out there where Thomas Kueneth argues that the variability of different types of polyballs is already comparable to what we have had with different brands of celluloid in the past. I respectfully disagree with that strongly. I became a 'devotee' of the plastic ball initially because a lot of people at my club started playing with them, and the first few that I tried were so bad that it was just depressing. So I decided to keep trying different kinds until I found one that was better. The two that I like best are (a) the one that I totally expected to be the best, the Nittaku Japan version, and (b) the last type of ball I expected to like, which is the seamless XSF. Given availability and a halfway reasonable price, I would only use the Nittakus and relegate my XSF to multiballs and serving. If it turns out that celluloid remains the standard ball in the future I will not cry any tears about it, I still like them better, but I am pretty sure sooner rather than later the plastic balls are going to be all you can buy. Hopefully by then the uniformity between brands will be greater than now. Right now my guess is that the material being used by DHS and DF is not optimal and will require adjustment. I have no idea if they will ever fix it. |
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haggisv
Forum Moderator Dark Knight Joined: 06/28/2005 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 5110 |
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They are certainly made by XSF, but I don't know how similar they are (I have not tried the XSF). I let a few people try my Yin-He samples, and people's reaction was 'not much different'. I think this is because the bounce is so close to celluloid, so the timing is very similar, but I think with more use the lesser spin will become more obvious, which will obviously affect people... some more than others. |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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I take a major hit in the spin of my serves. They bite into the table and slow up incredibly.
On the bright side, now it's a lot easier to do the ma-lin back over the net in one bounce serve. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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I have tried palio and xsf seamless and now galaxy. They all feel the same to me. |
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Haggis, the reduced speed and spin of XSF was immediately obvious to me, from the very first rally. But you are right, with the bounce being closer to celluloid, they are also easier to use, which was also almost immediately apparent, and even more so once I started playing matches with them. I can feel the reduced spin on all of the 40+ balls I have tried. But again, the Nittaku Premium 40+ is in every way closer to celluloid. Closer but not identical. I hope they get thier production back up very soon.
Cole, for sure, getting used to serving is suprisingly the single biggest challenge of all the polyballs, maybe even more with XSF. With a little practice you figure out how to make use of some of the properties. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Too little spin was the reason why plastic failed back in 1980s. I also noted inconsistent bounce when testing the XSF ball. It is not that it is completely unplayable because of inconsistent bounce. I once stupidly bought cheap trainer balls with inconsistent bounce, the feeling was very weird, but you still can have some fun playing with them. Like who makes more mistakes . Our sport should not go in that direction and it will not probably, I am sure next year the whole scam will be over. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I am certainly able to get enough spin with XSF balls and other plastic balls to win plenty of points outright with spin and power. It's not that different from before but I am able to get to a few more balls, rallies are a little longer, you do need to be fitter. But if the entire sport returns to celluloid next year, that is fine with me too. I very much doubt that will happen but I am not clairvoyant.
With XSF the bounce behavior is a little different from celluloid--as others have noticed, pushes stand up, sidespin balls jump more, there is less spin retained on the ball after the bounce, but it is most assuredly consistent. Different is not the same thing as inconsistent. It is quite easy to get used to. I have played with these balls a lot and have no particular vested interest in saying good things about them. I hate an inconsistent bounce more than just about anything. The other thing I can't stand is a low bounce. Given the choice between high and low bounce, it is much harder to play with a very low bounce. Chinese seamed balls bounce lower and in my experience they seem more inconsistent. |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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Boy that's true about the low bounce on the seamless. I could almost make the the ball roll off the second bounce of a short serve.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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I have just looked up what the highest German league TTBL teams use. No team uses a seamless ball, neither XSF nor any other.
To check that go to http://dttb.click-tt.de/cgi-bin/WebObjects/nuLigaTTDE.woa/wa/groupPage?championship=DTTB+14%2F15&group=223192 and click on "Verwendete Materialien (pdf)". Edited by Mastermind - 10/22/2014 at 9:29pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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And so? You were also saying at one point that nobody in Europe would use plastic either and you demanded an explanation about why we used plastic balls in our last tournament here in Houston. Guess you were wrong about that, since according to the link you provided every single match in the upcoming German superleague will use plastic balls. However you seem to have forgotten your earlier assertions in your ongoing eagerness to troll every single polyball thread. What this proves is that XSF has no influence or ability to get their balls adopted. They are new to the business. They are Chinese. Also there has been a natural suspicion of seamless balls since they appeared to be the ones that guys like Sharara were pushing, and also, of course, the earlier versions were awful. I expected to hate them too. I gave them a chance anyway. They are infinitely preferable to a Joola 40+. They are not as good as the Nittaku Premium Japan 40+. Nothing you write has any point to it.
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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This is not true, I never said that. What I did say was that French leagues did not use plastic and in Germany apart from in 2 highest devisions (where many people play also internationally with plastic) plastic was used extremely rarely and that according to my estimation 99,9% used celluloid there. Edited by Mastermind - 10/22/2014 at 9:55pm |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Ok, the point of that being.....??????????????????? The point of anything that you write about plastic balls being????????????????????????????????????????????? I get it. We all get it. You don't like them. You don't think people should use them. Maybe if nobody will use them they will go away. La la la la la! Anybody who writes about them might therefore be promoting their use. Therefore you must troll. Whatever anyone says, you must contradict. Someone says something good about Nittaku Premium? THEY BREAK!!! They have developed a bad reputation!!!! Joola 40+ or DHS? The break and nobody likes them. XSF? They may shatter and are dangerous and might put someone's eyes out and nobody in German leagues use them (which means you think they are better or worse than Joola?) and one guy on a German website didn't like them. One someone calls you out on it you say that's not what you said, I never said that, and all you do is point out what you read on the internet. But you are actually completely transparent because we can read between the lines of what you are saying.
Please stop. This time I am actually warning you. |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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I don't think that is possible given the long term outlook for suppliers of the base material. The issue will be how the vast majority of players who attend tournaments and keep clubs alive with dues will handle the change. So the plastic ball is here to stay but the sport will change along with it.
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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We used the Joola and Double Fish poly balls in the club last night. Everyone said they liked the poly balls better. They also liked the longer rallies. I didn't have a problem with my LP's, but my heavy backspin serve really suffered.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Just so it's clear where I'm coming from and in one last attempt to address Mastermind's points (which he has managed to express a little more clearly elsewhere), I prefer celluloid balls but have reached the point playing with plastic where I can have as much fun playing as I did before. Well, with some of them anyway.
My best guess from past behavior is that the people who run ITTF are never going to admit that the change to new balls was against the players' interests. The larger size and the resulting effects on speed and spin were a feature not a bug. That was one of the goals all along. Sharara now admits it (claiming most recently that they wanted to do it so the ball would be easier to see on TV, which is just staggeringly stupid). So if that was one of the goals all along, they may at some point take the step of banning celluloid, or if they don't do that, they may change size specifications such that even if we have celluloid balls, they will be the same 0.3-4 mm larger as current plastic. And if they do that, we will be dealing with many of the same issues since one part of what makes these new balls different is the size. (At least then, though, the balls would bounce the right height and might be less fragile but that is academic at this point). So that is the value I see in reporting my experiences with various kinds of plastic balls, so people will be able to choose among the various versions of polyball that do the least damage to the sport as we know it. That's why I am testing a lot of balls and reporting what I find. You could take the position that all plastic balls suck and therefore decide you will troll every single thread that discusses them. To prevent that, I am going to make the following very honest admission and stipulation: All plastic balls suck. I repeat, all plastic balls suck.* Mastermind is correct about that. With that said, I will also make the point that some suck even more than others. Some are more fragile. Some have even more messed up bounce behavior. Some have more outrageous pricing. I will do my best test every plastic ball that comes out and that I can get my hands on to try to figure out which ones suck least, and to decide over time if they are getting any better at all. The value in this is I don't think we will be going back to the way things were before, unfortunately. Maybe I am wrong about that. Either way, I'm not going to quit playing. * Even the Nittaku Premium Japan, which has pretty decent playing properties sucks. By definition, a ball that sells for $3 each sucks. |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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Well, we agree on something. The spin part of the game is the part that attracts most of us older players. It allows a 70 year old to compete with a 30. It's the thinking part of the game.
If I had to play only with the seamless plastic balls, I would very possibly quit the sport.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Mastermind
Silver Member Joined: 09/16/2009 Status: Offline Points: 948 |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I like the bit of extra time which bigger balls provide. I am not young either, and I am certainly pretty standard spin based offensive player. I was playing a young guy last week who in the last year or two has surpassed my level. He is just too athletic, and he has been improving lately (he is hovering around 2200). Last week, though, with XSF balls, I won. First time in a really long time. A practice match so mostly meaningless. Maybe a fluke result and may never happen again. But I think the ball had something to do with it. Arguably that is a bad thing, though, because I know he is better than I am. The point being that I don't think you should immediately jump to the conclusion that these new balls are bad for older players. I suspect once people are all accustomed to the balls, if that happens, then I think not much will change in terms of your ability to hang with younger players. You would really quit the sport because of these balls??? I admit that the thought crossed my mind the first time I played with a Joola 40+. Now, three months later, I personally don't think it's that huge of a change, especially given that I have found some balls that suck less than that. |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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The game of TT will change with new ball size and material. The entire structure of the sport which has been built around club coaching could change as the slower easier to strike ball will require less skill which is either a positive or negative for the sport depending on your point of view. The positive is that more kids will be able to play without extensive coaching and practice bringing in more players but whether they find the sport interesting enough to continue or just a recreational game to be played once in awhile will determine the sports fate.
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mts388
Platinum Member Joined: 03/21/2014 Location: Sonora CA Status: Offline Points: 2382 |
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Not being and older guy (I'm only 70) I don't know how the ball will affect them, but last night I won 2 matches off a guy that I rarely beat, and probably haven't beaten twice in one night in over 5 years.
The two contributing factors that I think helped; my reading the book "Get Your Game Face on Like the Pros" and the slightly slower ball. Because I have better strokes than my opponent, the extra time gave me time to utilize those strokes. My pip hitting was also much better. |
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igorponger
Premier Member Joined: 07/29/2006 Location: Everywhere Status: Offline Points: 3252 |
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THANKFULLY, WE HAVE NOW GOT THIS LOVELY PLASTIC ... Actually, the elder would try to escape of spinny/looping play. The elder do disfavour spinny balls, for those will give you a lot of troubles In play being far too difficult to control. The best part of our domestic seniors willingly took to the plastic DF right away, in place of celluloid. This is how the matter stands with my own folk.. Yes. Long live to Mr, Sharara, our beloved benefactor on the aging, ordinar players worldwide. It is YOU, you, you who inducted the timed plastic balls into the game and you darling Adham have made the game more playable for us, the ordinars. VIVA President Sharara, VIVA China chemical industry !!! |
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cole_ely
Premier Member Joined: 03/16/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
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I see a lot of older players that win with spin or spin variation. Many of them use long pips, which I think will be quite ineffective now.
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Wavestone St with Illumina 1.9r, defender1.7b
Please let me know if I can be of assistance. |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I have to say that I have not used new balls against anybody with LP (there is only one LP player in my club). So I have no idea how it might affect them. One thing I would caution is to not get too riled up one way or another until you have used them for at least a couple of weeks, including several matches with some different players. It seems to me it takes at least that long to get secure enough in the timing to separate out the different things going on. This is especially true of seamed Chinese balls, where you have to simultaneously deal with reduced spin and low bounce.
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