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Trouble against weird players

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    Posted: 10/30/2014 at 8:53pm
One of the clubs I go to has a lot of middle aged chinese people. They only hit the ball in the most obvious of situations. Otherwise, the push and try and send weird spins and short balls back. I have to pop in up for them to make them hit (then they flat hit). Since they obviously push all serves back, I just serve long then hit their service return. But I'm still inconsistent enough to lose.

Suggestions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2014 at 9:22pm
First, improve your pushes until you feel like you can indefinitely maintain a neutral pushing rally with them.

Then work on your long pushes, which will force long returns.

Then work on your flips/flicks and over-the-table loops which allow you to break open a pushing exchange or outright attack.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2014 at 10:09pm
You just need more time to develop reading the spin better without getting into any of the stance, movement, mechanic stuff.
 
Why not try to spin heavy and deep once before hitting?
 
Why not try to set your body up for a cross court shot, then let ball come back into your effective strike zone some more and hit a loop drive down the line?
 
Why not try to learn how to serve really heavy, then learn how to serve dead with exact same motion and be ready to step in to finish?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/30/2014 at 10:38pm
Good suggestions here...

Based on what you said...
Push long and fast for under spin and then loop all other balls (seems like their strange spin is not strong anyways if you are popping them up)

But in general you should always strategize to make the opponent play your game and not the other way around...
Perhaps you should share a bit about your game so we can help you better
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clarence247 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 12:22am
Actually, the answer to this is very simple but to get to a point where you can actually do it requires a lot of hard training. 

You need to learn how to open vs underspin. Once you open with top spin vs underspin the opponent can only block - he cannot push back. (he can actually counter top spin or chop if he is a pure chopper, but this is more advanced)

Opening vs underspin consists of 4 shots. FH loop vs heavy underspin (opening loop), BH vs heavy underspin (opening loop), FH flick vs short pushes and BH flick vs short pushes.

Each stroke requires hours of training to build up proper form and consistency.

If you have a coach then multiball is the answer. If you do not there still is a way.

Train with one of these guys. You serve with underspin, as heavy as you can - he pushes always to your FH long and you open (loop). Then same but he pushes long to your BH, then same but short push to FH and then to BH.

In each case the aim of the exercise is to open immediately and force a block. On the block the ball will have no or very light underspin. Your objective is then a control medium power loop which sometimes finishes the point but it's actual objective is to force another block. Finally after the next block a power loop with the aim to finish the point is normally the best option.

To give a concrete example you can plan an exercise like this:

You serve with underspin to their BH,
they return mid to long push on your FH side,
you open (loop) across,
They block with their FH accross,
you play a loop drive with medium power again across.
Once again they block across,
then you power loop at close to your full power (but a loop not a smash) down the line.

this is only one example, there are many variations of when to play down the line or across, and when the push is to the BH or short for example.

The main objective at 1st is to never miss the opening loop. Once this is achieved then the rest of the exercise gains relevance.

This is a systematic approach which will make you better... other suggestions here that I have read so far may help you beat this or that particular player, but do not contribute much to your overall skill level.

An opponent who pushes when he should have opened has to be punished by and opening loop.


Originally posted by Swiff Swiff wrote:

One of the clubs I go to has a lot of middle aged chinese people. They only hit the ball in the most obvious of situations. Otherwise, the push and try and send weird spins and short balls back. I have to pop in up for them to make them hit (then they flat hit). Since they obviously push all serves back, I just serve long then hit their service return. But I'm still inconsistent enough to lose.

Suggestions?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 1:01pm
Thanks guys, this makes me want to play and try again. These are actually the exact same tactics I try to apply. And it works for me to an extent. Last night, for example, I was making 75-80% of my opening shots against their pushes and short balls. After that, though, they block or move off the table and start doing the weirdest things with the ball. Then I miss eventually. This stuff just turns me into an awful player. I often practice and play with 2000-2200 players, then I look like a fool playing these guys. lol

Edited by Swiff - 10/31/2014 at 1:03pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rick_ys_ho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 1:36pm
Maybe it is not a good idea to call them weird players. Practicing with 2000+ players doesn't mean you are at that level. Actually in the range from level 1600 to 2000 there are a lot of middle aged players using unorthodox play styles as you described. Their game might look weird, but very effective. My suggestion is "Don't overlook this type of players. Losing to them isn't that bad".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tinykin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 2:42pm
Yup to Rick.
Their strength is that they concentrate on just a few strokes/serves but become very good at them.
Their weakness is that they concentrate on just a few strokes/serves.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote geardaddy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 3:32pm
The key to playing these styles is to relax, exercise some restraint, and pick the right balls to attack.  You have to respect that these players often give some high quality blocks/counters, but they will give you some weak returns.  Also, you don't need to be very aggressive against them because you don't need to worry so much that they are going to have a potent attack.  So, think to yourself "patience and control", i.e. spin the ball for control and be patient to hit for a winner.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LUCKYLOOP Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 4:44pm
Originally posted by rick_ys_ho rick_ys_ho wrote:

Maybe it is not a good idea to call them weird players. Practicing with 2000+ players doesn't mean you are at that level. Actually in the range from level 1600 to 2000 there are a lot of middle aged players using unorthodox play styles as you described. Their game might look weird, but very effective. My suggestion is "Don't overlook this type of players. Losing to them isn't that bad".


+1

These players are probably a lower skill level version of PushBlocker, who is rated around 2100-2200. He gives 2300-2500 players trouble at times. Yes the style is unorthodox compared to a conventional offensive game.

These type of players can be very difficult to beat in the 1400-2000 rating range.

Watch matches how other players beat them noting their strategy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 5:54pm
Originally posted by LUCKYLOOP LUCKYLOOP wrote:

Originally posted by rick_ys_ho rick_ys_ho wrote:

Maybe it is not a good idea to call them weird players. Practicing with 2000+ players doesn't mean you are at that level. Actually in the range from level 1600 to 2000 there are a lot of middle aged players using unorthodox play styles as you described. Their game might look weird, but very effective. My suggestion is "Don't overlook this type of players. Losing to them isn't that bad".


+1

These players are probably a lower skill level version of PushBlocker, who is rated around 2100-2200. He gives 2300-2500 players trouble at times. Yes the style is unorthodox compared to a conventional offensive game.

These type of players can be very difficult to beat in the 1400-2000 rating range.

Watch matches how other players beat them noting their strategy.

..


+1
I find that a lot of middle age Chinese players grew up playing very unorthodox... Because when they were playing they didn't have anyone to teach them nor YouTube to watch and emulate the pros...
Unorthodox is not a bad thing by any means... Because what they lack in fundamentals is made up by their superior touch and understanding of spin...

I find that a lot of the Chinese players don't mind playing people with junk rubbers or wierd styles.. And because of this they are very good at adjusting to your game in competition...

Maybe the best way is to play them often and really try to understand their spin...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote frogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 5:58pm
This type of player can be difficult especially if they spout garbage verbally during the match. Don't let them play their mind games with you as their game is based on trickery and weirdness. Most who play this style display good sportsmanship but once in awhile you will draw a real problem child.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 6:14pm
If they are willing, ask then every now and then what they did and what you failed to do that caused you to lose a certain point. Do this as much as they are willing to help and you have a base to go a direction from instead of general stuff like overall improving your ability to read spin or be more consistent.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 6:24pm
You already have part of the solution. What you need to realize is that entering a rally on neutral terms is a poor way to play table tennis, and this is where most weird players get stronger. It is hard to play weird against consistent heavy topspin. At that point, your opponent is a good player, not a weird player.

Stop the 3rd ball hit and make it a consistent third ball attach by improving the topspin component. The solution to weird players is improved, consistent topspin. Once you realize that, your game will get better.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 6:38pm
There are many "weird" style advanced basement and out-of-the-basement players out there, but usually strong players who use a lot of spin can over power them. 

Note:  I think table tennis players are weird, in general. Our sport has many nerds with unusual social skills. Yet, we find ways to make it work. I haven't come to blows yet, but close. ;-0
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ChichoFicho Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 6:55pm
There are no weird players. Players are good and bad. The one who wins is the better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 7:02pm
All the things mentioned are good.  I'm just going to add one thing here and it's kind of a sopbox thing for me I guess, but I was there for years. 

Using too tacky of rubber overemphasizes spin management.  The way to beat these players, as stated, is to be able to consistently turn the point to topspin and keep it there.  Having your rubber too tacky GREATLY complicated this.

You probably aren't going to be able to beat these guys on pure spin, esp backspin and sidespin.  At some point you're probably going to have to be able to pick hit a weird ball to win the point.  Again, hard to do with tacky rubber.


Edited by cole_ely - 10/31/2014 at 7:05pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Egghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10/31/2014 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by cole_ely cole_ely wrote:

All the things mentioned are good.  I'm just going to add one thing here and it's kind of a sopbox thing for me I guess, but I was there for years. 

Using too tacky of rubber overemphasizes spin management.  The way to beat these players, as stated, is to be able to consistently turn the point to topspin and keep it there.  Having your rubber too tacky GREATLY complicated this.

You probably aren't going to be able to beat these guys on pure spin, esp backspin and sidespin.  At some point you're probably going to have to be able to pick hit a weird ball to win the point.  Again, hard to do with tacky rubber.

Ya, u are right, it is hard to beat these guys with pure spin, particularly the well-off rubbers' player. I ran into three players like that, give me a lot of problems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Swiff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 2:47am
Thanks for the advice everyone.   And in reply to a lot of you: 
I never meant to call the players themselves weird, that'd be insulting.  I was simply referring to their play style.  Weird as in, it's not how most players play, not how coaches coach etc.

I guess you guys are right, I see these players giving 1900 players some trouble, too.  So it's not just me, which is good news, I guess.  I think I get frustrated after the first game because what's fun to me is hitting and looping, and I play TT for fun.  When I'm stuck on this slow weird game and I'm losing to it, maybe I mentally give up a bit.

Originally posted by rick_ys_ho rick_ys_ho wrote:

Maybe it is not a good idea to call them weird players. Practicing with 2000+ players doesn't mean you are at that level. Actually in the range from level 1600 to 2000 there are a lot of middle aged players using unorthodox play styles as you described. Their game might look weird, but very effective. My suggestion is "Don't overlook this type of players. Losing to them isn't that bad".

Every time I mention ratings, people pull these statements out.  >.<  

I never meant to imply that I play near a certain level because of who I practice with..   I just wanted to say that I have plenty of experience playing with that level of player and that I can play matches and practice with them just fine.  To help you all understand what kind of advice to give me for this topic.  

Thanks again everybody.  I'll be at that club again next Thursday and I'll try and put my heart into the game and give 100% the whole way through.  I also need to practice patience and respect their game more (someone mentioned this).  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheondo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 8:43am
It's mostly just experience. The good thing is that you're getting a lot of this necessary experience out of the way. I see a lot of people lose against medium pips, b/c they're "weird". Well, when you know how to play against them, you can easily beat them, usually. Same with long pips. 

You learn to develop techniques and strategies to beat them. It's all part of the learning process. Enjoy!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roger Stillabower Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 9:41am
I find it hard to anticipate a player that doesn't have orthodox strokes where the ball is going , and generally they don't even know where it is going.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 9:56am
I will stress that quality balls (pace, spin, placement) against a "weird" player at your level or even below USATT 2000 limit what they can do to the ball in terms of giving you something back.  We have a lot of pips players at my club and the common antidote to beating all of them consistently (and troubling the better ones) was being able to develop a consistent opening loop on both sides so that one could initiate the attack and get into topspin on one's terms.

Contra what some people have said here, tacky rubbers actually make playing "weird" players easier because they give you more spin manipulation options if you play actively and can read the spin.   And usually, that's once per rally if you open at the appropriate time with heavy topspin.  What usually happens is that most players who are used to being passive pushers want to play a low risk pushing rally, but that is exactly what plays into the strengths of the weird players, as such balls are slow, not powerful and easy to control or manipulate into weird spins and get popped up or pushed off the table.

When you loop against most of these weird players, they will *block*.  That is one of the secrets to beating them - they don't counter loops aggressively.  So if you loop controlled, heavy topspin, you know what to expect back and you can then improve how you manage the rally around that.  You can learn to drive the high balls rather than loop them with control, or you can move the loop around, or you can even push some balls as a variation.  But the biggest mistake is to engage in pushing rallies just for the sake of doing so (as opposed to pushing them around the table to set up your next shot).

Against weird players, the ball slows down.  Take advantage of it by opening with topspin.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/01/2014 at 9:59am
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tsanyc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 10:23am
My 2 cents:
- serve stronger underspins short follow by a loop shot if they push back long;
- if that doesn't do it then try top/side-spin short, remember to seek placement, you need to know their least expected spots;
- as a last resort, it works for me at least is to use long pips 1mm sponge on back side ( I love hellfire) because of chopping and ability to swipe and attack.

Try n good luck!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheondo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 10:32am
Great advice, Nextlevel. Any relatively heavy topspin, especially a slow one, will worry them greatly! All that they can do is block back a weak and high ball. 

Now, if they're good, they'll smash it down your throat. But that's like high level stuff. 

But I don't agree with whoever said that tacky rubbers are helpful. Tacky rubbers make whatever weird spin they put on the ball more dangerous to you. They also make lifting heavy underspin more difficult. A rubber like Tenergy, requires very little effort to lift backspin and very little effort to create a lot of topspin. Of course, any new gen rubber will do the same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheondo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 10:35am
Originally posted by Roger Stillabower Roger Stillabower wrote:

I find it hard to anticipate a player that doesn't have orthodox strokes where the ball is going , and generally they don't even know where it is going.

Well, this simply means you haven't learned to anticipate all that you can. Unorthodox strokes are irrelevant, since 80% of Americans have them! The key is learning to read ball spin, which comes with experience, concentration, and probably some coaching.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/01/2014 at 10:54am
Originally posted by cheondo cheondo wrote:


But I don't agree with whoever said that tacky rubbers are helpful. Tacky rubbers make whatever weird spin they put on the ball more dangerous to you. They also make lifting heavy underspin more difficult. A rubber like Tenergy, requires very little effort to lift backspin and very little effort to create a lot of topspin. Of course, any new gen rubber will do the same.
I said so and I assume by the statement, tacky meant grippy and/or sticky, including Chinese tacky, but not necessarily Chinese.  I thought the spin sensitivity of the rubber was what was being criticized and that Tenergy would also fall into the class of rubbers being criticized.

The spin sensitivity of Tenergy is what allows one to overpower spin as well as makes it spin reactive.  So if I scared of the ball and just touch it, Tenergy is the worst rubber in the world.  But when I am actually trying to do something with the ball, Tenergy is the best rubber in the world.  So I tell myself not to be afraid of the ball. I shouldn't rush into it, but just get to the ball on time and do a stroke, even a very short one vs just letting the ball react with my paddle.

But in most cases, the problem is deciding not to open and letting the player introduce his weird spins.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/01/2014 at 10:57am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cole_ely Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2014 at 12:07am
Yes, tacky can be an advantage for good players,but we're talking about players still, learning consistency.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2014 at 4:39am
I guess it depends in whether you are training a player for today or tomorrow.  Yes, today, the less grippy rubber will give them more margin for error especially on passive shots, but might not encourage them to take the aggressive shots and make the precise spin reads they need to take to compete tomorrow.  If a player is not looking seriously to improve, then experimenting to find the right rubber for his passive shots is fine, but someone hitting with 2000+ players hardly sounds like someone in that category.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheondo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2014 at 6:50am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by cheondo cheondo wrote:


But I don't agree with whoever said that tacky rubbers are helpful. Tacky rubbers make whatever weird spin they put on the ball more dangerous to you. They also make lifting heavy underspin more difficult. A rubber like Tenergy, requires very little effort to lift backspin and very little effort to create a lot of topspin. Of course, any new gen rubber will do the same.

The spin sensitivity of Tenergy is what allows one to overpower spin as well as makes it spin reactive.  So if I scared of the ball and just touch it, Tenergy is the worst rubber in the world.  But when I am actually trying to do something with the ball, Tenergy is the best rubber in the world.  So I tell myself not to be afraid of the ball. I shouldn't rush into it, but just get to the ball on time and do a stroke, even a very short one vs just letting the ball react with my paddle.


I mostly agree but I find Hurricane and Skyline to be more reactive to spin than Tenergy. I just tested Skyline recently and found lifting heavy underspin to be very difficult. Also serve returns are more difficult. A rubber like Barracuda would be ideal since it can lift underspin but is not that reactive to incoming spin.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smackman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/02/2014 at 7:37am
firstly Don't worry about all this rubber advice just use what you use

secondly If you can't beat them now then they are better than you, so learning, improving and having some strategies and playing them on a regular basis is only good for your advancement
and have some fun 
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