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Slow loop - why and when to use?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 3:10pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Next Level,

I am not trying to argue with you about whether it can be done.  But I still can not get a handle on what I have to do different to hit the two different speed balls both deep and both the same height over the net.  

Consider a fast ball with a certain amount of spin crossing the net 3in above it and landing very deep.  If a second ball with more topspin and less speed crosses the net 3in above it how can it land just as deep since it has more topspin to pull it down quicker and gravity will pull it down more in the longer time it takes to get to the end of the table.

Maybe I am mistaken in thinking that we are talking about both a fast loop and slow spinny loop being the same height.  Is it just that there are both high and low versions of the slow loop and we are talking about using the low version that is still somewhat higher than a fast loop would be?

Another possibility is that the trajectories are different at the net.  If the slower looped ball was travelling at an higher angle than the fast one as they crossed the net, then the slower looped ball could travel closer in length to the fast one.  In order to get this trajectory difference I would think you would have to let the ball drop lower before hitting the ball for the slow spinny loop than for the fast loop.  Is that part of the technique difference?

Mark

The short answer would be to join TTEdge.com.
 
The longer answer is something like this.
 
*Slow* in *slow* spinny topspin is relative.  What people mean is that the ball is not a drive.  The ball can still be relatively fast.  However, the contact is thin because the ball is not being driven hard.  Because the ball has a straighter trajectory, it will come across faster than higher arcing slow loop.  But it is still very slow relative to a loop drive.  A loop drive would use thicker contact (all the way to the wood).  A slow loop is more brush.
 
Letting the ball drop lets you use a lifting to stroke to get more topspin, but the key is really the brushing for the spin, keeping a closed racket face to keep the ball low, holding the racket lightly to avoid hard contact and having good racket head speed, especially with the wrist.  My forehand loop is essentially a slow spinny topspin almost every time - I almost never drive my forehand unless the ball is really high and I usually smash that anyway.  It's partly because I don't have the knees to generate the extra speed and spin simultaneously with loop drives, so I priotize spin over speed when looping. 
 
On my backhand, it is much easier, because there are more levers there.  On both sides, (forehand and backhand), it is critical to take the racket back (but not so far back you mistime the ball) so that the brush has enough racket head speed to grip the ball.  Aim for the top of the ball.  Start by looping the ball into the net and open progressively until the ball barely goes over it.  The contact should be silent.  It's one of the benefits of using Tenergy or extremely grippy/tacky modern rubbers with modern sponges as they let the ball sink in a little more before the ball gets pushed out so you can close the blade more.   The later you take the ball in terms of distance to the net, the easier you can arc the ball low over the net.
 
The shot is different with older rubbers because those don't let the ball sink in as much into the sponge, meaning you have to lift the ball to get topspin rather than go over it so you have to experiment.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjamja Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 3:49pm
Next Level,

Thanks for the info.  I have no problem hitting a slower spinny loop with full brushing contact where there is almost no sound at all.  I can also hit the much louder solid contact faster loop.  It is just that the only way I can seem to get that slower one to go deep is too hit it quite a bit higher than the fast loop.   Maybe I am just making the "slow" loop too slow.

What height over the net would you consider "low" for a slow spinny loop?

I probably need to worry a lot more about getting consistent with both loops before I worry so much about getting the quality of the loop up to a "pro" level.

Mark


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 4:19pm
Originally posted by mjamja mjamja wrote:

Next Level,

Thanks for the info.  I have no problem hitting a slower spinny loop with full brushing contact where there is almost no sound at all.  I can also hit the much louder solid contact faster loop.  It is just that the only way I can seem to get that slower one to go deep is too hit it quite a bit higher than the fast loop.   Maybe I am just making the "slow" loop too slow.

What height over the net would you consider "low" for a slow spinny loop?

I probably need to worry a lot more about getting consistent with both loops before I worry so much about getting the quality of the loop up to a "pro" level.

Mark


Some people can do slow spinny line "drives".  Those can be very hard to block as the returner you see the ball below the net and you open your paddle to meet it, but the topspin takes the ball off the table. 
 
The best low balls require the returner to get down low so he can meet the ball with a horizontal swing and counter over the ball without an upward motion, or sometimes with an up and down motion.  The higher ones allow the receiver to smash/punch downwards on the ball more easily with straighter legs, though there is risk here as well.  But like I said before, there is always a customer for every loop type at our level.  I find for example that my opening loop vs. backspin works best when I hook it to the wide forehand rather than just loop it there.  It's a shot that I did less when I developed a real forehand loop, but I have started to go back to it more because it scores way more points than my "real" forehand loop.  Many people recommend that you don't loop that way, but when lefties do it, people assume it is natural for lefties to do it - no fair in my opinion.


Edited by NextLevel - 11/10/2014 at 5:49pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racquetsforsale Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 6:33pm
Brush-looping perhaps is the more appropriate terminology than "slow" loop. All else being equal, the swing speed and angle will determine the speed and trajectory of the shot. The more forward the swing is the earlier the timing of contact needs to be. If you hear a squeak, the ball is actually skidding on the rubber and contact is too thin. You don't get more spin that way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by racquetsforsale racquetsforsale wrote:

Brush-looping perhaps is the more appropriate terminology than "slow" loop. All else being equal, the swing speed and angle will determine the speed and trajectory of the shot. The more forward the swing is the earlier the timing of contact needs to be. If you hear a squeak, the ball is actually skidding on the rubber and contact is too thin. You don't get more spin that way.

Yes, brush looping is a better term.  But then people go into hard brush and soft brush, so I think soft brush looping is what I am looking for (rotation over pace).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 6:45pm
I wish I could physically perform such a stroke. It would literally be game changing for me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 6:48pm
Why can't you do it?  Bad wrists?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Why can't you do it?  Bad wrists?
For anyone who's already heard my sad story, sorry to repeat . . . I had a bad accident years ago that left me partially paralyzed on my upper right side (playing side). I cannot lift my playing arm up or away from my body, which is probably why I'm a blocker. Wish I could brush loop. I'm still trying to find a way to use more legs and wrist to get that kind of topspin. I can small top/drive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by tommyzai tommyzai wrote:

Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Why can't you do it?  Bad wrists?
For anyone who's already heard my sad story, sorry to repeat . . . I had a bad accident years ago that left me partially paralyzed on my upper right side (playing side). I cannot lift my playing arm up or away from my body, which is probably why I'm a blocker. Wish I could brush loop. I'm still trying to find a way to use more legs and wrist to get that kind of topspin. I can small top/drive.

Sorry about that - I know you've told me before so I must be really inconsiderate to not remember the details.

Have you considered changing playing hand completely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tommyzai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 7:48pm
NextLevel,
You're not inconsiderate at all. No worries. I try to forget about my limitations, but some strokes are more difficult. Brush looping is hard enough when all your parts are operational. It requires more finesse, stamina, timing, etc than many other strokes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kurokami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 9:26pm
Originally posted by jrscatman jrscatman wrote:

Slow loop - what is the benefit of this shot and when should it be used?

A high level player walked by me as I was playing and told me to slow loop my opponent and it worked - have no clue why it worked. So I figured I'm not understanding something about this game.

Thanks in advace

probably bc he noticed the opp had poor timing and/or was just smacking/passive blocking the ball

there a bunch of cases where opp's level has weaknesses with slow heavy topspin but assuming that's not the case and it's pure strategy, you use it when someone's expecting to counter rip, rescue yourself when you're out of position, and when opening up into a topspin rip on the higher return.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote slowloop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11/10/2014 at 9:35pm
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