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Backspin Reverse Serve Like a Boss |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hi Ringer84, Thanks for your thanks . I just went to your thread and you have serious talent for the serve. You need to get more side on, get your right leg back and swing backward/forwards rather than side to side. If you watch part 3 of my site series (available higher in this thread, posted by NextLevel), you are making common mistake 2 (which 90% of people make) and you need to think about the key points. I subscribed to your thread and will comment there on any further videos you make, if you continue. Don't think you should quit. Cheers, Brett
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bluehorseshoe
Member Joined: 06/11/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Thanks for the videos. These are great videos to learn how to serve Like a Boss, and my goal is to learn the reverse pendulum just so I can learn the snake serve, but the last video has really confused me about one thing-
What is the appropriate grip? Is there an appropriate grip or is this one of those things where everyone is different?. The grip really affects the entire stroke, or at least a different grip would yield a completely different stroke. I had always assumed it was the same grip as for the pendulum serve, where you grasp the blade surface. When I watch ZJK do this serve, you can see the handle goes between the fleshy part of the thumb and the wrist. You can see the photo of his grip in the intro to this video, about :03-:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVfFjS67bs4 When I watch Brett Clarke's Videos, which are the best I have ever seen actually explaining the mechanics of the serve, he holds the handle where is seems that it would hit the wrist on some on his movements (but he holds the handle further from the blade), or even on the opposite side of his wrist when he demonstrates the movement on video 3. http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=69116&PN=1#838343 on this video about :45 seconds in, the handle is clearly on the other side of the wrist. Any insight would be appreciated. |
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Feedback: Bluehorseshoe
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68077&PID=823122#823122 |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hi bluehorseshoe, It's true, the handle really does hit my wrist when I serve sometimes. I think it is totally fine for the handle to come over the wrist (Timo), under the wrist or even hit the wrist if you don't mind the pain. It's also fine to put your index finger down the backhand rubber or to grip the blade more. What isn't great is using the regular shakehand grip as it restricts the range of your wrist. Anything that doesn't restrict your range should be good. The bigger picture is the elbow position and the ability to generate backspin by coming under the ball. Only a relatively small percentage of people that attempt this serve really get backspin.
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bluehorseshoe
Member Joined: 06/11/2013 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 62 |
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Thank you for your reply. I'll get to work on my reverse pendulum and snake serves.
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Feedback: Bluehorseshoe
http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=68077&PID=823122#823122 |
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DistantStar
Super Member Joined: 07/19/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Hey, Thanks for the reply Brett and Nextlevel. What I found difficult to mimic your serve is actually not the arm position, but actually the arm position in combination with foot direction. Our front feet is the same location/direction, but while your back foot is pointed away from table, Mine is usually parallel to my front foot/edge-line. I'm trying to copy this for 2 reasons. 1. not only you, but most top players, such as ma long also serve in this stance. 2. it puts my body in a way to hide my swing, showing only contact. 3. According to you it'll also give even more spin! This is where it got awkward because it feels my arm simply cannot reach the angle required to do the reverse serve. Not just the reverse back spin, even the reverse side/top is totally difficult. Also, how much back spin is considered "strong" for reverse back spin. I mean, trying to get as much as the pendulum back spin would be quite unrealistic, no? |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hey DistantStar, can you do reverse frisbee throws in the stance position? If you are having trouble doing the serve, you should have the same problem with the frisbee. I actually get more backspin on my reverse sidespin pendulum than my regular pendulum backspin and sidespin by default, though I can mess with the ratios on both serves. In relation to what is "strong" I would like to see a 90 degree turn off the floor after you hit the ball out 4 meters or so, without lobbing the ball. It's not easy to do btw. It is so hard to visualize where people are really at by reading words on a page. I would like to see video, but I realize it's a massive step to post footage publicly when you are struggling with learning something difficult. I'm very new to forums and I feel a little blind when offering advice without my usual visual information.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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DistantStar, Ringer84, and everyone else,
Not trying to get you or anyone else to flood Brett's inbox but you can send him the link/video privately if you don't want to post video here. I keep on trying to tell people that you don't get players like Brett who played and coached at the national and international level offering to critique your videos and serves for free - again, good instruction on how to develop high level serves is just about non-existent on the internet. Sure it's a lot of work, but many of us put hours into this sport already without details on how to get better. This is a rare event similar to a superhero origin that people should take as much advantage of as possible while it lasts.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Ringer84
Silver Member Joined: 04/12/2014 Location: West Virginia Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Well said, Nextlevel. I want to say thanks to Brett for visiting my thread and taking the time to critique my serve. It's very rare that a player of Brett's caliber takes the time to do something like this free of charge. My entire family is out of town so I'm stuck taking care of 3 different residences right now, so I just haven't had much time to try and implement the changes that Brett recommended. As soon as I get a chance to film again, I'll give it a go. I'll either post the video over in my other thread or PM Brett the video directly. Thanks guys.
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Yep, I would welcome any PMs if people wanted me to look at their serve and comment.
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suds79
Silver Member Joined: 08/20/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 878 |
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Thanks to Brett for this series.
I've been focusing on coming more forward with my reverse pendulum serve vs sideways like I have in the past. Elbow position is key. It simply works. I can finally mix in a good reverse pendulum backspin along with the easier topspin version. Its even helped my standard pendulum serve in the backspin version. As long as the blade is moving forward upon that bottom contact vs any natural sideways motion, you get really good amount of backspin. |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hi Suds79, I'm very happy for you. I know where you are at based on the words in your post. To me, all the different types of serves are the same...it's just a matter of where you fix your elbow in space. I know you understand. After that, you can add small whip type motions in with your wrist and forearm. Then your swing will be really short, deceptive and you will get real spin whist remaining accurate. Elbow position isn't just key for serving. I will explain this statement over time in video format.
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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thanks for the video, position of the back foot in particular was very helpful.
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Bogd
Member Joined: 06/09/2013 Location: USA, NC Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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Brett, thanks a lot for the videos.
I presume that topsheet of your rubber is very spinny (most likely tenergy, right?). I have a question: what would happen to your serve if you take rubber which is not that spinny? Like sriver or mark v? With those rubbers it is much harder to create heavy spin with such short contact. By heavy - I mean when the ball curves as much as on your videos (between first and second bounce on the opponent's side). You can create nice spins but the contact with the ball must be longer --> really hard to hide it from the opponent and hard to have a deceptive swing. cheers! |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hi Bodg, thanks for the question. Yes it's Tenergy 05, although serving with older type rubbers or modern day bad rubbers wouldn't change things too much. 99% is in the mechanics of the swing, not in the equipment. To be move specific, the way you use your wrist and forearm and elbow positioning. In relation to your last statement, I'm not exactly sure what you mean. The contact time is too fast for the human eye, regardless of how much spin one imparts on the ball. The ball is on and off your racket so fast. The length of your swing gives away a lot of info though. Please let me know if I misunderstood you. Thanks again, Brett |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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GMan4911
Silver Member Joined: 08/31/2012 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 830 |
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Definitely a noticeable improvement on the quality of the serve.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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I am sure Brett was bring nice and picking the ones he wants me to emulate and focus on. There were many that went into the net as well
And after I have mastered this serve...or servanted this serve, I will then move to Thailand and seek out... Master Lizard! |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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NextLevel, you sent me almost no footage and I just picked out a string of 5 serves, in a row, where you nailed it. If anyone can do 5 great serves in a row, they are on their way to the NextLevel in my mind
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TT_Junkie
Beginner Joined: 08/01/2014 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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Man... This is great stuff! Coming from a relative beginner, I truly appreciate any instruction that is easy to follow. I've been throwin the frisbee and doing the floor serves for the last 3 days straight. Looking forward to moving on to the table. Great stuff Brett!
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hey TT_Junkie, I know it's a big step, but it would be great if you posted some video of your progress here. Cheers, Brett
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TT_Junkie
Beginner Joined: 08/01/2014 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12 |
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I know Brett... I was thinking I should've been recording this process from the beginning, thus I know it's hard for you to give me some feedback without video. I'll see if I can set up a video session soon. However, back to my "progress" or lack thereof... I attempted to transition to the table last night, and it did not go so well. I had a really tough time with the table in my way! I was doing pretty well with the floor exercises, due to having the "perceived" feeling of freedom and not worrying about a table or net. However, when I attempt this serve on the table, I find myself struggling to focus on hitting the bottom of the ball, and everything just falls apart. Again, I apologize for the lack of video, but any other pointers would be appreciated. I'm going to keep working at it... "like a boss!"
Cheers, Andrew |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14844 |
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1. You don't have to post the videos here unless you are okay doing so - you can PM Brett directly.
2. No matter where you think you are, you are just starting out relative to where you are headed. Remember that I had the advantage/disadvantage of already having a reverse pendulum serve.
3. No matter how much progress you think you have made, Brett can convey to you a more realistic assessment of what you need to work on. I can't remember what I thought were good floor serves when I started and how they pale in comparison to my current floor serves, which I only got to after about 2.5 weeks of practice. And remember, I already had a reverse serve (if it isn't clear, I am the tall Black dude in the video).
4. A player/coach of Brett's caliber is offering to help you for free if you send him video and you are ...
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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Hey TT_Junkie/Andrew, One thing that I've continuously tried to convey to NextLevel is just how difficult this serve is and that any progress is a huge success. In many ways, I wished I had first started with the Regular Pendulum series (in process now) as it is much easier and more common. Regardless, if you can do a floor serve at get it to turn at 90 degrees, that is serious progress. I'm guessing that you get tense when you get back to the table and lose the flow of the serve. This is a step-by-step process and each step will bring new challenges. Imagine doing it at 10/10 in the 7th for a few thousand dollars. You're probably not ready to take this step. My suggestion is to alternate between floor and table serves and relax a bit. Realize that this thing is going to take a serious amount of time and it isn't easy. I'm shooting in the dark a little here as I can't see the target. If you want real feedback, I need to see what we are talking about. Feel free to PM me footage or post here if you don't mind being front and center. Cheers, Brett |
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TwiddleDee
Super Member Joined: 12/27/2011 Status: Offline Points: 141 |
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Brett really put a great video together on learning this serve. I wish it was out years ago when I struggled to learn it on my own. I did start out with the floor practice before I moved to the table. The frisbee concept is a great learning tool. One thing I discovered by accident when learning this as well as all other serves is something I tell myself when executing them, "If you are trying too hard, you can't stay relaxed enough to get the spin and control" Teaching all your muscles to stay relaxed throughout the complete execution of this serve, especially at ball contact is what I found to be most difficult aspect of learning to execute higher level serves.
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Brett Clarke
Super Member Joined: 10/05/2014 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 173 |
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TwiddleDee, Nice post! It's tempting to hold the bat tighter to get more spin, but it works the other way around, of course. Cheers, Brett
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