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Plastic balls debacle (to all TDs out there) |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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I haven't had a chance to play with NP40+ - I am told they might be sold to people who registered for Nationals but I have yet to even see one of them. I was told that they are much better than SHA (which. i agree with you are pretty bad, though not as bad as JOOLA Super-P). But this could be one of the main problems! Imagine that you are a player who goes to TT tournaments from time to time. In the past you didn't really care that much if TD mandated use of DHS*** or Nittaku Premium or Gambler Platinum*** or DoubleFish*** or Butterfly*** or JOOLA Gold*** etc - because they were all pretty decent balls, but also - WHAT IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT! - they played more or less the same, and you didn't have a problem training with, say, Butterfly *** and then coming to the tournament and playing with JOOLA Gold. Now - even if you train with plastic - the difference is so much worse that it makes people wince. It seems that instead of having two or three categories as we used to (3-star, 2-star, training balls) we now have as many as 10 categories (or more) Celluloid 3-star Celluloid 2-star Celluloid 1-star Plastic seamed 3-star better quality (Andro, Kinson, DF) Plastic seamed 3-star worse quality (JOOLA, Nittaku SHA, DHS) Plastic seamless better quality (XSF) Plastic seamless worse quality (Palio) Plastic seamed 2-star ... etc etc. So when the players will train with XSF and they will come to the tournament where they have to play with Nittaku SHA - the difference will be as bad as with switching from celluloid to the same crappy plastic. Regardless of whether you agree with me on which brands are better and which are worse, I am sure you can agree with general statement about diversity (or to use better word, inconsistency) of the field. And that's really bad. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Tom, you make it sound like celluloid balls were not essentially commodities before the plastic ball came out. Luxury cars are not commodities so I don't accept your analogy. The most expensive 3* ball played marginally and debatably better in the 40mm ball era and it didn't have great durability (if we agree it was the Nittaku).
You really should get an XuShaofa Ball and log your own comments. This discussion is now entering Mastermind territory... |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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As I just posted, it would be fine if the entire USA standardized on XSF - but that is not going to happen. TDs and USATT around the country will use 5-6 different types of 3-star plastic (even if generally we agree that XSF is somewhat superior). I am not even talking about JOOLA or Butterfly or Stiga or Gambler sponsored tournaments And the problem which will arise from that is that the difference between XSF and DHS, or XSF and JOOLA is much worse than the difference between any decent 3-star celluloid balls which are regularly used at advanced-level tournaments around the country. And that means players will suffer from training with one of them and then playing a tourney with another. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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As I mentioned in my emails to Will Shortz (owner of Westchester TTC and organizer of a great series of Westchester Open tournaments), I do not see my idea as boycott. I see it as a normal way of doing business, and using absolutely reasonable common sense.
Quote: If
someone came to you a few years ago and said, “why don’t you use Tibhar 1-star
ball in
your tournaments, I will supply them to you for free?”. Your answer would be
“Thank you
for your generosity, but they are not good enough”. Or if they suggested you use
Stiga *** you
would say, I can get better ball (say, Butterfly*** or Nittaku) for basically
the same money. So
it’s your decision, guided by market and by quality. I
fail to see why the same approach all of a sudden stopped working with these new
crappy balls. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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JimT, the divergence in balls really has its source in DHS largely and DFish secondarily. Most clubs are tied to an equipment sponsor (or more). DHS makes the balls for all the ITTF pro tours and for that reason, Joola and Nittaku branded its ball. If DHS changed to the XSF ball tomorrow, everyone would follow. It's not quite as complicated as you are making out, even if your point is valid. As I have said many times, what ever the pros use will filter down to the amateur levels and dominate the tournaments as lower levels because of aspiring players.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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popperlocker
Gold Member Joined: 03/24/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1753 |
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The TD's are making the right decision, I wouldn't play a celluloid tournament, because I know plastic is the future. Celluloid tournaments would probably get cancelled, because no one would sign up.
I don't even watch celluloid matches(asian games), why watch or practice when it's going obsolete? However, for hardbat and sandpaper events(ball breaking events), celluloid or XSF would be best.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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My main disagreement was over the issue of consistency. I took that to mean the play of a particular brand and type of ball. Frankly, I consider 40mm celluloid balls to be moderately inconsistent. And I believe this is due mostly to the seam. The NP 40+ ball plays very consistently and that shows up quickly in training rallies where it is easier to keep the ball in play longer. My second area of disagreement was over why the balls break. Changing materials and the wide variety of different materials used in the new balls, while maintaining the same ball weight with a larger ball and then adding the option of seams or no seams gives us lots of possible causes for breakage. Consistency and durability are not necessarily correlated IMO. But yes, I agree that the variety of differences in playing characteristics is now a problem when it wasn't before. It isn't exactly a disaster, but it is a real problem. With celluloid, I pretty much felt that the people who would make an issue over one brand of 3* vs. another were largely picking nits. Yes, there were/are differences. But the differences were small enough that it wasn't a big deal to me. I never bought Nittaku 3* balls to prepare for our Nittaku 3* tournaments. I was happy training with DHS 3* balls and pretty much happy to play with any ITTF or USATT approved 3* ball. It was only on the day of the tournament that I'd make sure I only used the tournament ball. I agree that today it's a much bigger deal with the plastic balls and their much wider range of playing characteristics. And that's part of the folly of the USATT specifying the NP 40+ ball for the Nationals. The original impetus was to assist the elite players as they prep for international events. But given that different events are using different balls and that these balls all play differently, they could have just as easily used celluloid balls since the NP 40+ won't prepare the players for their next international level event. Use the older celluloid and avoid inconveniencing the 90+% majority of Nationals participants who won't be competing internationally. In the end, the choice to use the NP 40+ serves almost no players well. It's bad enough that the USATT once again is throwing the rank and file player under the bus (my costs for playing have increased by about $60 due to the need to purchase and start playing with NP 40+ balls). But doing so isn't even going to help the elite players in any meaningful way with upcoming events. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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NL, what I am saying is the most expensive Nittaku cell ball is way more expensive than the top ball of DHS or DF, so whatever brand you prefer you would have to compare the top cell ball of the same brand to the top plastic ball of the same brand to see which one has a higher price and not top DHS plastic to top Nittaku cell. BTW I have played with most brands of plastic including XSF.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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But from the standpoint of playing characteristics, it doesn't make sense to lump tournaments into the two categories of plastic or celluloid. Given playing characteristics, there are currently at least five categories. 1) Celluloid 2) DHS 40+ seamed 3) DoubleFish 40+ seamed 4) XSF seamless 5) Nittaku Premium 40+ seamed I agree that players will quickly adopt what the pros are playing. The caveat to that is that I've watched players at my club become quite disgusted with new Nittaku SHA balls that break while doing warm-up drills, or as one person experienced, after simply taking the ball out of the box and dropping it on the floor. So adopting the ITTF standard is going to be increase player ball costs by three to four times. It will be interesting to see how tolerant amateur players are of that. If XSF balls continue to demonstrate superiority in durability and playing characteristics, will the pressure switch in the other direction? IMO, Nittaku should be embarrassed to be selling Nittaku SHA balls for $2 each retail given their (lack of) durability. They should be 75 cent balls at best. To Nittaku's credit, they have produced a more durable "premium" ball.
Edited by wturber - 11/21/2014 at 2:47pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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I think it is misguided to try to get TDs to stop using plastic. Like it or not, that is the future.
We need to pressure them to not use crappy plastic balls, irrespective of what ITTF has done. For me and for many other players, that means XSF (if you are buying the balls yourselves) or NP40+ (if they are being provided for free). All the CHinese seamed balls are an embarrassment, especially Nittaku SHA since they should know better. Since most of us are not playing ITTF pro tour, what ITTF wants maybe is not that important. |
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LUCKYLOOP
Platinum Member Joined: 03/27/2013 Location: Pongville USA Status: Offline Points: 2800 |
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Since the standard cost of living in China is lower than Europe or the USA, how are the Chinese dealing with the new cost of the plastic ball ? |
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skip3119
Premier Member Joined: 02/24/2006 Location: somewhere Status: Offline Points: 8257 |
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Our club switched to Nittaku SHA for "League Play".
I bought some and practiced with the ball in Non-League matches. Two balls were broken in two friendly match sessions. It will be very expensive to play Nittaku SHA balls.
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skip3119
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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My bet is that they are playing with celluloid ... as God intended the game to be played. ;^)
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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And worse with NP40+, but at least those bounce. |
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vanjr
Gold Member Joined: 08/19/2004 Location: Corpus Christi Status: Offline Points: 1368 |
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Well the national and provincial teams etc will be playing with the plastic DHS probably, but I do not think the players will be paying for them. BTW I really like JimT's argument for standardization but frankly not for the NP 40+ standard. I think the XSF balls are fine to play with, but you know that Joola sponsored tournaments will play Joola plastic and USATT will play NP 40+. These are set in stone due to money-the money of "the man" and not the money of the little man. |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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Guys, i am not trying to STOP TDs from using plastic. To say that would be similar to saying "You are trying to undermine TSP brand" to a TD who doesn't want to play tournament with a bad quality TSP training ball or with a great TSP *** ball which is however very pricey.
I am just saying that UNTIL THEY ARE GOOD AND CONSISTENT QUALITY, why would TDs even consider holding tournaments with these balls? It's not like you are really preparing anyone for Nationals by making them play with a DHS 40+ ball... right? Or for that matter, even with XSF. And I agree that hopefully this is a very temporary issue - in a year or so, under pressure from many places, manufacturers will improve and prices will go down, balls will be more consistent etc. Until then however it's our job to apply that pressure. Not just for the long term gain - better balls etc - but for the short-term as well. What I am afraid of is that we will end up losing a lot of middle level players who are uncomfortable with the bad plastic balls. they will - most likely - continue to come and play at the clubs, where they still (thank goodness!) can make their own choice about which ball to use. But they will play less and less plastic tournaments during this transition period, and then even if the balls will become significantly better, we will not get many of them back on board. That is TD's bread and butter - more participants - and I really don't understand why they would be so easy to switch to plastic before it's anywhere near celluloid in quality and pricing. They will lose some visible percentage of attendance. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
Say "no!" to expensive table tennis equipment. Please... |
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JimT
Premier Member Joined: 10/26/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 14602 |
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And that's why standardization is not going to happen. Nor do I think it is a good idea anyway. But at least with celluloid you could be more or less sure that if you trained with decent 3-star balls then playing with some other brand's balls at the tournament was not going to affect your game more than by a percentage point. |
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Single Ply Hinoki Club, Founding Member
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beeray1
Premier Member Joined: 07/03/2008 Location: Iowa Status: Offline Points: 5169 |
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I remember hearing Samsonov talk about the new balls back when it was just whispers. He said that a large percentage of the errors professional players make in the 40mm celluloid era was due to the balls already, and was hopeful that the plastic ball would move past this problem. It sounds like the opposite has happened, so I can't imagine if pros made lots of errors based on balls already what they are going through now.
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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As I said before, I think the NP 40+ plays consistently than celluloid balls. At least it did so in my hardbat chopping/hitting drills. Other accounts say that the XSF balls play more consistently than celluloid. So certain particular plastic balls will probably reduce errors. Others won't. Unfortunately, ITTF has partnered with the manufacturer who is supplying one of the worst balls. Maybe that's why barriers sporting the brand of one of the worst balls got their sign kicked to pieces by a champion player?
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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BH-Man
Premier Member Joined: 02/05/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Remember, the ITTF President said way back then that national associations and amature associations can play with whatever the heck they wanna play with under zero obligation to use what ITTF has sanctioned...
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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At my clubs, the demand is from top-down - first from those fighting for a place in the US team & there on down. In fact, here it is the opposite - the TDs / league managers & club owners have been forced to move to plastic because customers indicated that they have less inclination to participate otherwise. What ball is better to play with is of less importance here than trying to get a leg up on the competition. |
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ckhirnigs113
Super Member Joined: 09/23/2010 Location: Alabama Status: Offline Points: 327 |
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Just to add a little note, I am helping plan a tournament (2-star USATT), and we are using XSF plastic balls for he tournament. I haven't played with them yet, and it wasn't my decision to use them, but from what I've read these seem to be a good choice.
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Baal
Forum Moderator Joined: 01/21/2010 Location: unknown Status: Offline Points: 14336 |
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Why would be apply pressure on companies that actually make good polyballs? XSF and NP40+? It would be bad to punish them, especially XSF which is not that big and probably has a lot staked on this.
The pressure needs to be applied selectively. |
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roundrobin
Premier Member Joined: 10/02/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 4708 |
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I think you will be happy with them. Playing with XSF balls, my training partners and I are making some incredible shots that we don't remember making since the speed glue ban... We could countersmash each other's loopkills repeatedly with great accuracy, and with very little effort. The ball goes wherever we want it to go when we hit hard...it's spooky. Also, the ball seems to be suspending in the air for so long after bounce we could do many things at will. It's just so simple to play our best game with these balls... |
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iakovka
Super Member Joined: 07/14/2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 446 |
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Hi tom, I don't think I ever mentioned or discussed some generic plastic ball properties or price, you are referring to. I was talking about specific ball from XSF. Regarding the price - it will always depend on where you buy. I bought my New, 2nd generation XSF cheaper than your quote of Nittaku Premium but you know, you can always find more expensive place if that's your objective. Regarding the "enjoyment of the sport" - it is same vague term as "better" for this matter. Some ppl like new ball, some don't. Regarding the quality - for me new XSF lasts longer than Nittaku Premium but I do manage to break them, once in a while, can happen sometimes when I hit it with the edge of the racket on short powerful loop. Any slower than that does not break the ball. Played with some defense guy yesterday and he said he plays with one ball for 3 weeks - I can believe him. Edited by iakovka - 11/21/2014 at 5:41pm |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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Iakovka, Please see my discussion with Nextlevel regarding the price. You should compare XSF Premium plastice to cell and likewise for Nittaku and not XSF Plastic to Nittaku Cell to come to the difference in price.
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Tom,
What about XuShaofa's 3* ITTF approved ball doesn't allow us to compare it to Nittaku Premium? Your comments have been very unclear and I just gave up discussing it. Baal points out that this is possibly the most durable ball he has ever used in 40 years of playing. What about that is not deserving of note? Table tennis balls were essentially commodities before the plastic revolution - did anyone really care what brand they used to the point that they couldn't switch? Edited by NextLevel - 11/21/2014 at 6:08pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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NL, ok let's start from scratch. why are Butterfly products more expensive than other comparable ones? some will list the quality differences but I don't think anyone could fully justify the huge differences. at the end each brand will charge whatever they can command. so when I suggested to compare plastic to cell balls of the same brand only, to see which kind is more expensive, it is just that, in order to remove the unjustifiable elements like brand cache. The discussion is to reach a conclusion on whether the plastic or cell ball is being charged a higher price. I think only comparing balls of the same brand will give you a fair conclusion. if you can't agree with that then the discussion ends
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14849 |
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Only if the balls were not essentially commodities! If they were commodities, then you can look at whether a ball compares to the extremes. XuShaofa is competitive with 3* ITTF cells at all prices, regardlss of brand or quality. |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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tom
Premier Member Joined: 11/18/2013 Location: canada Status: Offline Points: 3016 |
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NL, not to be rude, but we are doing two exercises here. one is to determine whether plastic balls (of the same brand) are higher priced than cell ball (of the same brand). the other is to compare XSF's plastic ball in terms of quality and price against all cell balls. the second exercise is much harder to come to a neat conclusion and not the one I am pursuing - there lies the problem - we are not having the same discussion. Have a good weekend
Edited by tom - 11/21/2014 at 6:40pm |
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