Illegal serve by Par Gerell (match point)

NextLevel wrote: JohnnyChop wrote: The so and so have illegal serves comes up so often… this makes me wonder which of the top players actually have 100% legal serves? or even legal rubbers? Samsonov. His serves during then hidden serves era would be legal today.

I agree. Today his serves are clear as day.

Before, his serve would still be legal today if he just moved his tossing arm a bit to the side.

Tinykin wrote: Perhaps, but more importantly, it takes the big talkers in this thread to do something about it by becoming umpires themselves. I know that you Jay, are an active umpire but  I'm talking to you, connor, cmugica, jackwong23, Antuan …and the rest. Do something significant instead of simply chatting on forums. Who knows, you may actually enjoy it

I disagree.  IMO, this kind of change requires top-down leadership.  The transition to the plastic ball is a great example.  People will follow the leader.  A club umpire could create local change, but when that local change meets regional change, there will be conflict.  The change won't travel "uphill" easily and life might get difficult for that umpire.

wturber wrote: IMO, this kind of change requires top-down leadership.

Definitely.  Imagine ITTF says they will be calling every single illegal serve at the upcoming World Tour Grand Finals.  It will only take a few seconds for all these pros to adapt. 

jackwong23 wrote: he should be banned. disgraceful serve

I have to hand it to you with that remark, since it is some pretty high level trolling. 

I feel like kind of a jerk now. I was playing some one-star tournament and I couldn't see the contact point at all against my opponent and I told him. We had a small argument, but then he moved his arm and it helped quite a bit. But what he was doing is nothing compared to what the pros do. 

cheondo wrote: This brings up another question: If the pros aren't seeing the contact point, that means they're watching the spin and trajectory and bounce of the ball only.  Actually, this is what I do, since I'm often deceived by trying to watch the contact point. How many of you guys just watch the spin of the ball?

wturber wrote: Tinykin wrote: Perhaps, but more importantly, it takes the big talkers in this thread to do something about it by becoming umpires themselves. I know that you Jay, are an active umpire but  I'm talking to you, connor, cmugica, jackwong23, Antuan …and the rest. Do something significant instead of simply chatting on forums. Who knows, you may actually enjoy it I disagree.  IMO, this kind of change requires top-down leadership.  The transition to the plastic ball is a great example.  People will follow the leader.  A club umpire could create local change, but when that local change meets regional change, there will be conflict.  The change won't travel "uphill" easily and life might get difficult for that umpire.

I really don't know what you are on about.

All umpires call it as they see it.
I say again, all umpires call it as they see it. There is no conspiracy to ease up on pro players. If you disagree with the quality of the decisions, then we all can do something about it by increasing the quality at all levels. That's why I call on all you commenters to become umpires.
It needs no top down decrees from ITTF.
All it needs is for all of you to make the calls at all levels that you play/umpire at.
Write to the ITTF or to the referee of the tournament, and complain about the decisions that you see.
Action!!!!! Not keyboard warrioring.

I kinda agree it's not fair to put blame on umpires. What can they do? Don't you remember Ding Ning at OG'12? She faulted her so many times they replaced her mid game. Yes, she didn't make the best calls but that's what you are suggesting right "all umpires call it as they see it", sometimes it can be right, sometimes it's not, but if they intervene too much, it's not good for them, either. I don't blame them for not "stepping up". 

Tinykin wrote: OK so now we know more. Most umpires in your experience lack courage. You obviously know quite a lot about how matches should be officiated. Are you willing then to umpire at matches? You don't have to be officially qualified. Make it even better by qualifying yourself officially. All players in the UK are very experienced at umpiring. They do it every week at local and national level competition since they were beginners/cadets. They are well aware of the issues involved.

I am the primary organizer for our local club, I organize two Stellan training camps a year, plus all our local tournaments and other events, and I'm the USATT regional tournament coordinator. I'm pretty much volunteered out.

benfb wrote: Tinykin wrote: OK so now we know more. Most umpires in your experience lack courage. You obviously know quite a lot about how matches should be officiated. Are you willing then to umpire at matches? You don't have to be officially qualified. Make it even better by qualifying yourself officially. All players in the UK are very experienced at umpiring. They do it every week at local and national level competition since they were beginners/cadets. They are well aware of the issues involved. I am the primary organizer for our local club, I organize two Stellan training camps a year, plus all our local tournaments and other events, and I'm the USATT regional tournament coordinator. I'm pretty much volunteered out.

over here.

OK, forgiven. I'm much the same.

Tinykin wrote: We've discussed this before and think I understand. That's why I'm trying to get the posters to get involved so that they can understand umpiring before jumping up and calling for players to be banned etc. 80% of umpiring is quite simple and easy. It's that last 20% that's really difficult and is only achieved through huge amounts of experience. And frankly, much of that lack of experience is obvious to me even at international level. That's why I say to get involved from early and umpire a lot. You don't have to call serves unless it's really obvious or you really know what you are doing.

Well, that's really easy to say but extremely difficult to do.  Not only we don't respect volunteer umpires, we also don't want to volunteer because there's no monetary reward to do so.  If you had ever lived in SoCal or NYC for a period of time you will know exactly what I am talking about.  Everything is money and "Me" oriented.  We are very different people and you can't just ask us to change our culture.  Ain't happening! 

vutiendat1337 wrote: more serves are called out and faulted at NCTTA Nationals than in ITTF-sanctioned events and majors, LOL. Something to think about.

And is it changing the sport?  Probably not.  Why?  Because it isn't top-down.  My bet that if it is changing anything it is at the NCTTA level and below.

Tinykin wrote: You don't have to call serves unless it's really obvious or you really know what you are doing.

Then you aren't really umpiring, you are merely score keeping and perhaps settling the occasional dispute.  I happen to think that's a big step forward from what happens in the U.S.,.  It is much better for spectators and video presentation.  But it doesn't really do anything for this thread's issue of rampant disregard for the service rules at pretty much all levels.



Edited by wturber - 11/28/2014 at 7:28pm

Tinykin wrote: wturber wrote: Tinykin wrote: You don't have to call serves unless it's really obvious or you really know what you are doing. Then you aren't really umpiring, you are merely score keeping and perhaps settling the occasional dispute.  I happen to think that's a big step forward from what happens in the U.S.,.  It is much better for spectators and video presentation.  But it doesn't really do anything for this thread's issue of rampant disregard for the service rules at pretty much all levels. Not true, in my opinion. I know that you do some umpiring but I really don't know why so many American posters keep on repeating this. It makes me realise even more what RoundRobin was saying about American player attitudes to umpiring. But if that's how the US scene is operated then, C'est la vie. To me, Once someone sits in that seat and makes any decision on the score, serving order etc, then that person is umpiring. A scorekeeper is one who does absolutely nothing until an official indicates the the score that is to be recorded. Let me explain further. If there is any dispute where the referee is called, that referee will listen first and foremost to what the person in the chair has to say. Not the players. Why? Because the person in the chair is regarded as the umpire whether you want to degrade the position by calling him a scorekeeper or not.

It is you who has degraded the position by suggesting that someone take the chair but not bother with actually enforcing the rules.  And that's a rather ironic suggestion considering that the whole point of this thread and its migration to umpires is the lack of service rule enforcement. 

Please put away your strawman argument.  I did not downgrade the position to "scorekeeper."  What I said was, " ... you are merely score keeping and perhaps settling the occasional dispute. "
You are the one who re-labeled the position, not me.  I'm merely describing what that person is doing. And your own description pretty much agrees with mine. 

I did not say that he was not an umpire, I said, "you [the umpire] aren't really umpiring"  just as I might say about a cook who burned my toast and ruined my eggs that he "isn't really cooking food - he's murdering it,"  If you aren't going to enforce basic rules, then you aren't doing the job correctly IMO.  You aren't "really" umpiring IMO.  It's serving up burnt toast. Given that this whole thread is about the non-enforcement of service rules, that seems to be a pretty sensible position to me.

I've observed many club matches from England and as I said before, I give great credit for the fact that somebody is pretty much always taking that position.  But what I have also observed is that those umpires simply codify by inaction what we've codified in the U.S. by not having umpires.    Namely an extremely lax enforcement of service rules.  I conclude that encouraging more people to umpire matches but for them to also feel OK about not enforcing serving rules will do nothing to improve the situation regarding illegal serves.

jrscatman wrote: I have a solution, how about if the players rated the umpires. Currently, umpires just do the minimum to get their cards validated and try to get invited to the better tournaments. Basically the attitude is steady as she goes and don't rock the boat. However, if players start giving feedback, then umpires will be forced to enforce the rules, also all umpired matches should be video taped - so complaints and compliments can be validated.

Edited by vutiendat1337 - 11/29/2014 at 3:30pm