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How to play with topspin

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    Posted: 02/11/2015 at 3:30pm
Need some help understanding strategy of using top spin. 
I am not really clear what gives people trouble with top spin. I am also a little confused with when to use slow top spin vs loop drives (hard and spinny). 

I know the question maybe too broad, but any thoughts on the subject would be helpful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 3:34pm
Firstly make sure to cover the ball on the top of it. Many players see a backspin ball and want to do an opening loop and hit it from the bottom. You should still be grazing the top of the ball. The time when you don't do another slow loop would be when the ball is high enough to go for the drive. The drive should be more frequently a finishing shot. The opening loop usually won't win a point against a decently rated player
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 4:49pm
There isn't a single answer for when to use slow top spin (I assume you mean a slow spinny loop).
Some examples:

Against heavy underspin
When you're late on the ball and it's already descending
When your opponent has backed up too much (it's much easier to block a slow spinny loop early)
When your opponent has shown that he has trouble with it
When you want to play it a bit more safe (I find it to be a safer shot)
Can be used as a change of pace
It can be used to set up a loop drive or smash - if your opponent just blocks, it will probably come back high
If you can vary the placement, especially depth, it can be an extremely useful shot.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 5:19pm

What gives many players problem with spin is that it can be very unpredictable.  You can get a slow ball because you mistimed the ball or you can get one because you loaded it with spin.  For a lower rated player trying to block, the ball comes slowly, but it is full of energy (not pace).  So they want to just touch the ball softly because they know it has energy but they don't adjust their blocking angle (much more critical than the softness of the block - they are even better off blocking a bit aggressively if they open the paddle) for the spin so it kicks off their racket too high.  This problem also affects higher rated players if the ball is low and deep and the spin is heavy enough.  If you watch the match I posted on heavyspin's serving thread vs. Quamina, you will see me block his slow heavy topspin off the table quite a few times and vice versa.

Th one thing is that you need to generate the spin with good racket head speed, even when you want the slow topspin.  Sometimes, you even don't mind if the topspin is high if the spin is heavy enough.
 
And even if the person doesn't block if off the table, the first return tends to be high and sets you up for an attack.  Most better players will slow spin the first ball to you then attack the second ball hard.  So to be able to do well against the better players, you have to be able to do something decent with the first ball, so that they don't just use the first ball to set themselves up all the time.


Edited by NextLevel - 02/11/2015 at 5:25pm
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 5:23pm
I disagree that the slow spinny loops is a safe shot. It's definitely a good shot against low leveled players but once they're at about 1700 you're just setting them up for an easy counter drive
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 5:34pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I disagree that the slow spinny loops is a safe shot. It's definitely a good shot against low leveled players but once they're at about 1700 you're just setting them up for an easy counter drive


Then your topspin is not heavy enough. I can post videos if you seriously want to debate this but I have seen 2400 players have issues blocking slow spinny topspins. It's one of those things that you sometimes won't believe until you see.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 5:41pm
I would love to see one of these videos. Genuinely curious. When I was I initially learning to play the very first thing my coach taught me was the coubterdrive/block all shots. It was the same form no matter how spinny the loop. Maybe it's just something I excell at or something then, because when I see a slow spinny loop I instantly think it's a free point now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 6:02pm
I posted videos recently of some of my recent matches against 2 1600 players, and 1800 player and a 1900 player.  I used way more slow loops than loop drives and they were quite effective against all of the players.  My service return game and lack of aggressiveness were a different issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I disagree that the slow spinny loops is a safe shot. It's definitely a good shot against low leveled players but once they're at about 1700 you're just setting them up for an easy counter drive


Then your topspin is not heavy enough. I can post videos if you seriously want to debate this but I have seen 2400 players have issues blocking slow spinny topspins. It's one of those things that you sometimes won't believe until you see.

Honestly, if you watched the North American Grand Tour matches, you'll see quite a few example of it and these guys were 2600+.  If they weren't able to take it early it gave them a lot of trouble.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 6:04pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I would love to see one of these videos. Genuinely curious. When I was I initially learning to play the very first thing my coach taught me was the coubterdrive/block all shots. It was the same form no matter how spinny the loop. Maybe it's just something I excell at or something then, because when I see a slow spinny loop I instantly think it's a free point now.
That's good coaching.  But in my experience, slow spin bothers some people, especially juniors, it doesn't bother others.  But the spin must be heavy - medium spin doesn't cut it.
 
Here is a match won by the best slow spinner I know.  Both players are over 2000.  You can choose to focus on the few times his opponent smashes the ball properly, but the error rate makes that moot.
 
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 6:56pm
Interesting! I can see why juniors would have trouble with the stroke. I just never imagined a high level player wouldn't have the correct stroke at that point. I definitely stand corrected
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 9:23pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I would love to see one of these videos. Genuinely curious. When I was I initially learning to play the very first thing my coach taught me was the coubterdrive/block all shots. It was the same form no matter how spinny the loop. Maybe it's just something I excell at or something then, because when I see a slow spinny loop I instantly think it's a free point now.

You've just described yourself as a hyper high level player who is completely oblivious of what us mortals have to put up with. That's a bit rich, don't you think? Not even Timo Boll takes a slow loop as a free point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 9:32pm
Maybe not seen as a free point per say. But surely an advantage. Even when you have the opponent off the table and you're smashing it's not a free point. But it sure as hell feels like one
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 9:33pm
Originally posted by Lestat Lestat wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I would love to see one of these videos. Genuinely curious. When I was I initially learning to play the very first thing my coach taught me was the coubterdrive/block all shots. It was the same form no matter how spinny the loop. Maybe it's just something I excell at or something then, because when I see a slow spinny loop I instantly think it's a free point now.


You've just described yourself as a hyper high level player who is completely oblivious of what us mortals have to put up with. That's a bit rich, don't you think? Not even Timo Boll takes a slow loop as a free point.
Maybe he would like to volunteer what his current USATT rating is right now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 9:41pm
I've watched couple rallies of that video. You can't slow loop a relatively high ball that you're supposed to topspin at the top of the bounce, and then praise the other guy for countering well. That's a tactical error.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 9:43pm
Look, I had an 1800 player at the last tournament tell me afterwards that he gave up on giving me slow loops because I smacked a few winners off of them.  When I watched the match on video afterwards, his decision was to my benefit.  I either missed or returned an easy ball on probably over 50% of them. I just killed the ones in my wheel house.  He noticed the ones I killed, not the ones I missed and he changed his strategy because of it.  I still lost, but it was a close match.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lestat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 10:13pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

Maybe not seen as a free point per say. But surely an advantage. Even when you have the opponent off the table and you're smashing it's not a free point. But it sure as hell feels like one

Watch Recalling Tokyo 2014 topic under videos and go to 4:20 to see a slow loop executed by Timo Boll. Then try to understand why Mizutani chose to fish the ball like a rookie instead of counter looping. And no, it's not because he's playing with a fast blade Smile





Edited by Lestat - 02/11/2015 at 10:21pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 10:47pm
Originally posted by Lestat Lestat wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

Maybe not seen as a free point per say. But surely an advantage. Even when you have the opponent off the table and you're smashing it's not a free point. But it sure as hell feels like one

Watch Recalling Tokyo 2014 topic under videos and go to 4:20 to see a slow loop executed by Timo Boll. Then try to understand why Mizutani chose to fish the ball like a rookie instead of counter looping. And no, it's not because he's playing with a fast blade Smile




@lestat  he chose to do that because he was out of position. if he was in position holding his ground, he should have counter looped it RIGHT off the bounce. Same with the above video in this thread. The guy in the video in this thread was hitting it way too late, not anticipating the shot correctly. to be honest it looked like he was off his game if he is rated as high as it's said that he is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BH-Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:20pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I disagree that the slow spinny loops is a safe shot. It's definitely a good shot against low leveled players but once they're at about 1700 you're just setting them up for an easy counter drive
 
 
I gotta agree with NL, if a player can counter a heavy loop with consistency in a match, say 75%+, then that player is very likely not a 1700 level player. Countering such a loop isn't easy. I know exactly one 1700ish player who can BH counterloop soft off the bounce, but that is on BH wing. if you place it right or are unpredictable, the consistency goes down.
 
All 1700 level players do not do the same things but one thing that marks this level is the errors. Most 1700 players, not all of them, you spin it heavy, and all they are going to do is block it, usually long and out. if they try to hit it, it is usually an error in your favor.
 
Having said that, I bet you can make some serious spin with your new blade. :D
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:22pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I would love to see one of these videos. Genuinely curious. When I was I initially learning to play the very first thing my coach taught me was the coubterdrive/block all shots. It was the same form no matter how spinny the loop. Maybe it's just something I excell at or something then, because when I see a slow spinny loop I instantly think it's a free point now.

i believe you can beat Timo pretty easy then!!!! should consider quitting your day job!!!Wink


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Vince64 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:28pm
It would help if we had a idea what Norema's rating is. Maybe he is at a level that a slow spinny loop is just a average shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

I would love to see one of these videos. Genuinely curious. When I was I initially learning to play the very first thing my coach taught me was the counterdrive/block all shots. It was the same form no matter how spinny the loop. Maybe it's just something I excell at or something then, because when I see a slow spinny loop I instantly think it's a free point now.

i believe you can beat Timo pretty easy then!!!! should consider quitting your day job!!!Wink



when your opponent lobs a ball up and sets up a shot that you're comfortable with (a smash). do you feel like it's a free point? it's just a stroke i'm comfortable with. All I'm saying is a slow spinny loop isn't a SAFE shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:29pm
I don't think a slow loop that bounces high enough for you to smash/ hit/ block/ punch consistently has any quality at all! 

I think much of the discussion has been focused on the slow loop alone, i think when considering the slow loop as one of the variety of offensive shots, it is pretty deadly.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:31pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I don't think a slow loop that bounces high enough for you to smash/ hit/ block/ punch consistently has any quality at all! 

I think much of the discussion has been focused on the slow loop alone, i think when considering the slow loop as one of the variety of offensive shots, it is pretty deadly.  

agreed. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hookumsnivy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:46pm
Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

All I'm saying is a slow spinny loop isn't a SAFE shot.

I see what happened here.  This is all started because I said:
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

When you want to play it a bit more safe (I find it to be a safer shot)

What I meant by that was that I find it to be easier to keep the shot on the table.  I wasn't looking at it from the aspect of what my opponent would do with it.
That being said, I think a well placed slow loop is better than a poorly placed loop drive.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NoRema Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:49pm
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

Originally posted by NoRema NoRema wrote:

All I'm saying is a slow spinny loop isn't a SAFE shot.

I see what happened here.  This is all started because I said:
Originally posted by hookumsnivy hookumsnivy wrote:

When you want to play it a bit more safe (I find it to be a safer shot)

What I meant by that was that I find it to be easier to keep the shot on the table.  I wasn't looking at it from the aspect of what my opponent would do with it.
That being said, I think a well placed slow loop is better than a poorly placed loop drive.



wow haha. looks like a pretty big misunderstanding on what i thought you meant by safe. you're correct with it being easier to do, so it would be safer in that aspect.   +1 for knowing where i misunderstood and clarifying that Clap
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:50pm
1. I agree that higher balls are generally of lower quality. That said, some players have problems with them. When you get to play as much as I do and see things and reflect on them because you can't win with athleticism , you notice all kinds of things.

2. If a ball has enough spin, even if high or shallow, it has to be approached correctly and you have to get to the right position to kill it. Even if a person.kills 1 slow loop, he might have missed 6 others that don't make the highlight reel. But the key is to load the ball with very good spin with fast racket head speed. Every player has a level of spin they struggle with. We saw Jim Butler's level when he played Bob Chen. And I saw a play once when Wang Hao slow spun a ball to Zhou Yu and ZY just countered it into the sky. The problem is that it is difficult to generate such levels of spin consistently. But if you can do it, you can probably drive the ball with good spin as well and the combo will put you above 2000 easily. People who think loaded high balls are easy to counter just haven't seen someone put good spin on those balls.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:52pm
Originally posted by JohnnyChop JohnnyChop wrote:

I don't think a slow loop that bounces high enough for you to smash/ hit/ block/ punch consistently has any quality at all! 
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">
</span>
<span style="line-height: 1.4;">I think much of the discussion has been focused on the slow loop alone, i think when considering the slow loop as one of the variety of offensive shots, it is pretty deadly.  </span>

You use short pips so its a bit different but that said, some of you still have similar problems. At the level I play, every shot has a customer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NextLevel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/11/2015 at 11:56pm
A high spin slow loop even if badly placed can slow down the rally where s good drive out of position dares your opponent to end the point with a block. Again, depends on how you want to play.
I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnnyChop Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02/12/2015 at 12:22am
Originally posted by NextLevel NextLevel wrote:

1. I agree that higher balls are generally of lower quality. That said, some players have problems with them. When you get to play as much as I do and see things and reflect on them because you can't win with athleticism , you notice all kinds of things.

2. If a ball has enough spin, even if high or shallow, it has to be approached correctly and you have to get to the right position to kill it. Even if a person.kills 1 slow loop, he might have missed 6 others that don't make the highlight reel. But the key is to load the ball with very good spin with fast racket head speed. Every player has a level of spin they struggle with. We saw Jim Butler's level when he played Bob Chen. And I saw a play once when Wang Hao slow spun a ball to Zhou Yu and ZY just countered it into the sky. The problem is that it is difficult to generate such levels of spin consistently. But if you can do it, you can probably drive the ball with good spin as well and the combo will put you above 2000 easily. People who think loaded high balls are easy to counter just haven't seen someone put good spin on those balls.

oh my comment about the low quality of the higher bouncing slow loops was referring to the second dip the ball takes after bouncing due to the massive topspin. i doubt ball with massive topspin at any speed will bounce high (relatively)… 
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