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Low level in-game mistakes |
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NoRema 
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 Topic: Low level in-game mistakesPosted: 02/15/2015 at 8:42am |
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I've noticed a lot of low level players make some of the same mistakes. 1 of which being that they may have some good "bread and butter" shots, but they don't realize that these shots will stop working quickly. New players tend to just try and hit good or spinny shots with placement. This causes them to possibly win the first game or even two. However a higher level player uses the first game as a collecting data against the opponent. Once the download is complete the lower leveled player is convinced that they (themselves) just aren't playing as well as they should be. They never tend to realize that this is because the higher level player is forcing them to miss their shots and kill themselves.
What non-coached in game strategies have you come across / noticed? |
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heavyspin
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 9:38am |
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One mistake that comes to mind is the player who commits too early (before opponent strikes the ball) to step around to forehand attack from his backhand corner. I place to his wide forehand, point over. Related to this are the ones who serve fh from their bh corner, camp out there, leaving a wide open forehand lane.
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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BH-Man
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 10:21am |
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Even a lot of players under the golden 2000 level are not able to continue the attack if one of their strong shots is blocked.
Many U1600 players have serious fundamental flaws in their stance, position relative to where they need to be to strike the ball the direction they wish (or at least have the options) and tend to impact the ball out of zone (often too early) An observant player will take advantage of this and look like they are not even working to earn points.
Reading spin is a problem at that level and several levels above. So is serve receive.
Really possible to make a really LONG list (I posted such a LONG list years back on a few forums and called it a gig list) but I keep it real simple here.
OP has a good idea to highlight this aspect, the more we all think about basic fundamentals and tactics, the more solid we become. (if we learn from it and work)
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Vince64
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 12:40pm |
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NoRema
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 12:54pm |
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<1800
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Vince64
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 1:00pm |
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NoRema
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 1:05pm |
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I'm not, coach won't allow me to compete in tournaments for approximately 2 more years. I play competitively with 2000-2100 players at local clubs, but that's not saying much since you can do well against anyone that you've played enough. edit: haven't a set to anyone below 1900 in a few months, if that helps. I'm not good yet but i know what I'm doing.
Edited by NoRema - 02/15/2015 at 1:08pm |
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viva
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 1:08pm |
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Lets have a look at the gig list that sounds interesting. BH man can you find the post or copy it here?
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http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40170&title=viva-buy-sell-feedback |
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pgpg
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 1:21pm |
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Sorry for going on a tangent - what is your coach rationale here? Tournament play is something that can't be reproduced in practice play - pressure, different styles of play etc. Genuinely curious.
Edited by pgpg - 02/15/2015 at 1:22pm |
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lineup32
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 1:30pm |
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As an intermediate player I have been ahead many times 2-1 or 2-0 to higher rated players and lost 3-2 while it is painful to lose in those situations I notice that my overall game is improving but not enough to overcome the need for more practice in order to move up in player rankings. Friday night RR I was ahead 2-0 against a player 500 pts above me in ranking and finally won 3-2. Its a good sign if lower ranked players put pressure on higher ranked players and if they continue to practice and develop there game good things happen....
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NoRema
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 1:30pm |
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ill pm you about her, rather not change the topic of the thread too much
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BH-Man
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 2:06pm |
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I posted it at OOAK YEARS ago and though I did it here too.
Say hi to that sorry-azz Der_Echte for me. http://ooakforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19594 His post is 1/2 way down the page 1
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NoRema
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 2:12pm |
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BH-Man's old post! =
1) Cannot properly read spin
2) Cannot be in position for shots 3) Strike the ball out of their optimal strike zone 4) Cannot receive serve 5) Have little spin variation on serve or it is too obvious 6) Do not control depth of serve, nor the height, nor the break, not the location of bounce on serve 7) Make a nice attack, but are unprepared to continue the attack. One block by opponent wins the point. 8..Try for too much power by lifting their elbow or bending backwards, that creates an attack that might land, but player is way off balance to do anything afterwards. 9) Poor balance, stance, and play too upright 10) Try to make power shots (without max spin) when ball has dropped below table 11) Reach for balls 12) Do not step in on serves that are short 13) Do not have courage to step in and flick, even if they know how to flick 14) Make poor decisions on which balls to attack 15) Do not make quality pushes - their push is attacked easily for a point 16) Do not make passing shots that carry light topspin, clear net low, and are difficult to attack and setup an attack for the next shot 17) Do not stay calm in match, easily distracted or upset, bothered by every noise 18) Do not construct points, have no plan how to setup their strong shots 19) Do not take advantage of the serve as a means to create an immediate offensive advantage 20) Grip the bat way too tight in a close point or juncture in a match 21) Use a grip that is difficult to transition form FH to BH and back to FH 22) Move too early before opponents hit the ball, open themselves to a ball hit by where they just were 23) Commit to a FH or BH return by moving arm and blade before opponent strikes ball, which gives away easy point 24) Do not stay close to the table to block to take advantage of time pressure and angles 25) Do not block off the bounce, reach for the block, do not adjust bat angles, do not block to difficult spot, do not know how to block soft, hard, or active 26) Do not have good depth on offensive shots, lands too shallow and allows opponent to easily counter attack 27) Do not generate heavy spin, spin they make is too weak and easy to counter or block 28) Do not know how to vary the spin on attacks and do not attack at different speeds 29) Land attacks, but not at a high enough percentage, inconsistant, lose too many points attacking balls that should be high percentage 30) Attack the "wrong" balls, make poor decisions on which stroke to use 31) Do not have a trained sequence of combinations to attack or block. One block from player's attack or one continued attack from players block is the end of the road - no further plan on how to continue. 32) Do not use enough wrist in loops, lose too much spin. Do not use the whole body. Often raise playing elbow our scrunch shoulder instead of lowering waist and exploding throught the strike zone. 33) Do not know which serves will get which kind of likely return. 34) Do not adapt as match goes on. Try to win using the same tactic or shot, even if opponent has proved he can handle it. 35) Does not have a dependable BH loop opener or BH power shot (shakehand players) 36) Move too far from table to counter 37) Do not move in to hit balls that do not kick towards players, such as a slow, very light underspin or a no-spin ball 38) Too scared to attack, even when presented with a good attacking chance, push balls they shoul loop, then find themselves defending a strong attack. 39) Do not learn what troubles an opponent or what shots give the player a better ball to attack 40) Do not stay crouched in point, do not make a good first step 41) Do not use 2 step or crossover footwork with balance, cannot move to the wide FH to attack, then bounce back towards nuetral position to cope with the return 42) Get scared when they see opponent use heavy topspin, instead of using it as an opportunity to block or counter to disrupt his timing 43) Do not seek to play vs a variety of styles. Ex, can play OK vs a similar attacking topspinner, but fail vs Short Pips BH or LP players 44) Very indecisive or overdecisive 45) Frequently move the hitting elbow forward before impact, reduces power, spin, landing % - that uses mostly shoulder which is too weak compared to using whole body 46) Do not observe strengths/weaknesses of opponents beofre match 47) Do not have an understanding of where to strike the ball (back of ball, top of ball, slightly under the ball) for diffenent incoming balls 48) Backswing pusts racket way too low for an incoming topspin ball, causes player to swing upwards and often long/out 49) Can open vs underspin with an upwards lifting stroke, then use the very same stroke to attack the block, which is usally a light topspin. Result is fail 50) Use the wrist wrong. Use too much slap, (the part of wrist motion that can have a 90 degree range instead of wrist pivot (the part of wrist that has a 30 degree range in each direction 51) Try to wrap around the ball, instead of simply using a consistant swing plane and explode through the ball. I'll stop at 51 beofre any of you throw a frypan at me. |
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pgpg
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Posted: 02/15/2015 at 2:33pm |
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First of all, epic old post from BH-MAN/Der Echte - hard to add anything new there... But I think you answered your own question: low level players by definition have at most few good shots (and even those do not succeed 100%) and plenty of weaknesses. Better player only has to figure out a couple of obvious flaws and go after them - it's game over after that. Happened to me plenty of times: can't handle particular serve, can't block good spinny loop, stumped by LP etc. Hard to overcome these in a single match, that's what practice is for. Also, after re-reading the gig list: I still don't know what I don't know
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 4:16pm |
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This doesn't make much sense. A "bread and butter" shot that's good enough will most assuredly win against a worse player. If anything basic shot quality is perhaps the most under-emphasized aspect of the amateur game. Eg. a loop from a mid club level player is nothing like a loop from a pro. |
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Baal
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 4:40pm |
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I think OP was talking at least in part about playing better players and why one is able to seem to hang in there for awhile but not for the whole match, and inexorably lose. Pretty common.
Part of what happens is that the better player needs a bit of time to see what the weaker player is doing, exactly as the OP mentioned. One thing to keep in mind is that significantly better players often can anticipate exactly where the weaker is going to hit the ball (once they've seen them for a game or so to see how they set up for various shots). They may need to see the serves a couple of times and after that no problems (the better they are the less time that takes). They may need to do a few trials to figure out what the weaker player seems to hate. That bread and butter shot doesn't work as well against someone who knows when it's coming and exactly where it's going to go----or if that shot is really really strong, then how to simply take it away from you. That can make you feel like you have to press harder on the rare opportunities you have managed to take the initiative -- hit a little hard or more spinny -- and then you mistime and you feel like you are playing badly. But truth is you probably do need to put a little more on those shots, and that is not accustomed, so you miss more. But if you don't , well they quickly take back the initiative in the point and then you lose that way. You have to pick your poison. That's why they are better. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 5:04pm |
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A somewhat better player can just block to the same place against you and still win, because their blocks will be more consistent, quicker off the bounce, lower, and sometimes contain some variation that isn't present at your level.
It's often the case that folks get the impression they need moves X, Y, Z and strats A, B, C, etc. as if collecting trading cards, but in reality a better X is more effective far as playing level is concerned. (it's also a big part of why "guess the rating" threads are full of fail, because people pay inadequate attention to those details of basic play). |
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Baal
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 7:06pm |
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I'm sure that's true in your experience. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 7:57pm |
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It's true for anyone paying attention.
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Baal
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 9:06pm |
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Like I said, I'm sure it's true in your experience.
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 9:18pm |
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Next time you play one of those 2500 level guys tell them to block whenever feasible to your BH and see if you can finally win.
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cheondo
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 9:36pm |
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I think the list is really too long to be of use to anyone. Get a coach and learn the fundamentals.... or spend years and years learning the hard way.
The basic mantra is to keep the ball on the table. This works up into the mid to mid-high levels. Reading spin is also key, but that comes with experience and there's no substitute for that.
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Baal
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 9:47pm |
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It is a pretty long list. It could be longer too. But how to distill it?
Here are three things I have figured out over the years that kind of work for me without having to remember that gigantic list of BH Man. 1. The little unspectacular points count just as much as the ones where you look good. 2. In between points it pays to really mentally visualize getting your feet to move on the next point because it is really easy to fool yourself into thinking you are moving when you are not, and it requires a renewed commitment to it on each point, and even the little unspectacular shots will suck if you were lackadaisical getting into the right place. If you take care of that aspect, a lot of the rest will be better. The mental imagery of moving your feet just before the next point will actually help you do it. 3. Finally, your actual level is not the level you play when you are playing your very best or when you play your very worst. (A good coach really pounded this into me). |
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pnachtwey
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 10:52pm |
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By ratings. What ratings range makes each of the mistakes listed. I know this would be general but it would narrow things down a bit and be a criteria for the "guess the ratings" type of posts. Most of these mistakes are made by under 1400 players but I see a few made by 2000 level players. One "mistake" I see in many videos is just getting the ball back without a plan. It is easy to spot weaknesses. It is harder to exploit them. |
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AgentHEX
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 10:59pm |
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A large component of ratings is consistency. Many above average club players are for all intents and purposes below average style players with many years of practice getting the ball back on the table, sometimes with some funk. There's simply no way to compare that against, say, a well-coached junior on the way up.
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mjamja
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Posted: 02/16/2015 at 11:08pm |
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My main mistake is showing up to play people who really know how this game is played.
And I just keep on making that same mistake over and over. Mark |
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vic
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Posted: 02/17/2015 at 3:03am |
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Yes, I'm guilty of many of these sins.
But I think everyone should be guilty of number 30. It's because....(I'm almost ashamed to admit it), I play this game for FUN. Blocking is boring..... chops are for chickens. Go for the half chances, try that outrageous side spin backhand loop. Who cares if you miss, you try, you learn, try again. Have a laugh, have a beer..... table tennis is just that.... a game |
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too much TT is barely enough
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CraneStyle
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Posted: 02/17/2015 at 7:56am |
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100% power shots on kills...
Yes, I am guilty of this and planning to dial it down... 
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1. Mizutani Jun ZLC, FH T80, BH T05
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heavyspin
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Posted: 02/17/2015 at 8:34am |
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Assume the point is over immediately after making an expected winner but before the point is actually over.
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An EJ to a table tennis player is an equipment junkie. An ej to a mathematician is a standard basis vector.
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mhnh007
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Posted: 02/17/2015 at 8:41am |
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Yes. This is a mistake at any level, but mostly at a lower one. I remember W. Schlager, when asked for an advised, said "Always expect the ball to come back".
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NoRema wrote: