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considerate or bad coaching? |
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pingponger
Super Member Joined: 11/19/2012 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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Posted: 02/25/2015 at 1:08am |
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I've recently been playing at a club full of competitive kids accompanied by supportive parents, who are sometimes more intense as coaches than their little ones as players. This club has produced U.S. champions and Olympians, so the competitive atmosphere and the desire to produce more future champions is obvious from that place.
There was this boy, probably around 8, playing his matches with noticeably good strokes and a healthy competitive attitude, but with obviously illegal serve (no toss at all). After seeing the kid play game after game with consitently illegal service motion, I approached the parent, after he was done taking videos of his kid. I then carefully pointed out the issue. To what I said, he replied with something like, "I am a ranked player, and I coach my son. I do know that his service motion is illegal. However, he is not feeling well today, so I'm giving him a break and letting him serve as he wants. But thank you for your comment, ...". Nice guy, he handled my comment well. I initially thought what the parent said was okay. But on second thought, wasn't this doing a disservice to the kid? For he is allowed to acquire a bad habit, that he has to unlearn for sure, if he wants to play sanctioned events later on. Unlearning bad habits, from my experience, is, over the long-term, harder than learning good ones from the start, even if the good habits are harder to get started with. |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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In my opinion people should coach themselves. If someone is not paying you or asking for your expertise - you shouldn't offer it.
When I was first learning TT, I appreciated all the free advice that was coming my way, however, now that I'm more knowledgeable about the sport - I've realized 80% of the free advice was incorrect. In this specific case I would agree with the coach and the parent. It is very confusing for juniors to receive conflicting advice from different sources. One of my earlier coaches - former National coach - said "When serving - never serve legally but never serve illegally!" - Perhaps that's what this junior is using. |
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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cheondo
Super Member Joined: 08/19/2008 Location: Detroit, MI Status: Offline Points: 397 |
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Is it a disservice? If it's one day, no. If it's constant, then maybe. Tossing the ball a couple inches higher is not hard to do. Most likely, this parent was in "face saving" mode and lied about his kid being sick.
At any rate, most people don't appreciate strangers telling them what their kids are doing is wrong. And, probably everybody can use this advice: don't offer advice to other TT players unless it's asked for. Like jrscatman, much of the advice given to me over the years was dead wrong. Frankly, most TT players in the US haven't learned from decent coaches and they merely promulgate their bad habits and wrong-headed notions to others. I remember meeting a "coach" who had about a 900 USTTA ranking and I almost fell over when he showed me how teaches his students to "loop".
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Primorac Carbon + P7
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bobloiy
Member Joined: 01/21/2014 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 69 |
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One of my earlier coaches - former National coach - said "When serving - never serve legally but never serve illegally!" - Perhaps that's what this junior is using.
What's that supposed to mean? Edited by bobloiy - 02/25/2015 at 8:23am |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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He wanted the players to serve in the "grey zone" - ball toss very close to 6 inches, toss not exactly straight, palms - not completely flat, try to hide ball with the body....etc. But don't do it in such a way so that people will say it's illegal....but he wanted people to ask the question was it legal? As I mentioned he was high level coach - as a beginner, it was too much for me - I just started serving legally. At the time I found it too confusing to worry about illegal stuff. But I guess as you go up in levels all the little things make a difference. Note: As one of the posters told me in a previous thread - if you serve on the borderline - be careful when you use it. Also, what type of umpire might be calling the match. You don't want to get called on a serve on a match point against you. Edited by jrscatman - 02/25/2015 at 12:56pm |
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Butterfly MPS
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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The main problem is that its a disservice to the sport. Unfortunately, many coaches teaches their students to serve illegaly, well aware that most of the times, they will get away with it.
If coaches could work hard on teaching clearly legal serves, then the serve issue might go away. I know, its a Utopia to belive in such a thing. |
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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In a match I faced an opponent who served illegally (off his hands) to teach him a lesson, I decided to serve illegally as well....to my surprise I found I couldn't serve illegally - either I missed the serve completely or I had trouble placing it correctly, went back to legal serving.
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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Speedplay
Premier Member Joined: 07/11/2006 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 3405 |
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Lol, Ive tried the same, with the same result. a guy constantly blocked the ball with his free arm, so I decided to do the same... Managed to hit try arm two times with the ball and one time with the racket, on four attempts. Went back to legal serving after that.
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The holy grail
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I interpret it as "do whatever you can get away with." Probably great advice from the pragmatic angle. Not so hot from the sportsmanship angle. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Nah. I don't think so. The fish rots from the head down. If ITTF umpires don't enforce the rules, then we'll see illegal serves further on down the ranks. Aspiring players copy top players.
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Practice, practice, practice ... ;^)
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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cheondo
Super Member Joined: 08/19/2008 Location: Detroit, MI Status: Offline Points: 397 |
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It looks like something we'll have to live with. Learn to watch the trajectory, bounce, and spin of the ball and don't even worry about the contact point.
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Primorac Carbon + P7
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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Illegal serves aren't all that hard;
You can learn them even if You're a retard. You can learn them when You're seven or eight From a coach you like Or a coach you hate. Will an ump ever call Your serve on you? Prob'ly not; don't worry, Yeehaw, wahoo! Does the ITTF really give a damn? Don't think so, no sir; Definitely not, no ma'am. So let's hear it for illegal serves! They take both strong and Steady nerves. And if you can't Serve illegally, Sorry sir or ma'am, Tough noogies for thee. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Bran
Super Member Joined: 06/18/2013 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 367 |
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If the man wasn't BS-ing you, then to me this is absolutely awful coaching. The guy's teaching his boy that it's OK to bend the rules due to your personal circumstances. It's completely wrong. And if the boy really isn't feeling well, then he shouldn't be playing. Either way, I disagree.
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geardaddy
Super Member Joined: 11/14/2013 Location: Minnesota Status: Offline Points: 402 |
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C'mon berndt_mann, your joking makes it seem like such illegal serving didn't exist back in those golden daze of hardbat nirvana. We all know there was all sorts of crappy no-toss serving et al back then. Perhaps this is an integral part of your game that you can't survive without? Maybe you implement one of those crappy serves where you put "english" on the ball by spinning it off the bat right out of your hand? C'mon, be honest without the high'n mighty bull.
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NoRema
Silver Member Joined: 02/04/2015 Location: On The Table Status: Offline Points: 564 |
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From a coaching perspective this is wrong. But there is no "correct" way to parent a child. Therefore I don't believe he is in the wrong. He wants his kid to have more fun for a day and that's his choice. It isn't right or wrong from a parental perspective.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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[QUOTE=geardaddy]
C'mon berndt_mann, your joking makes it seem like such illegal serving didn't exist back in those golden daze of hardbat nirvana. We all know there was (sic) all sorts of crappy no-toss serving et al back then. Perhaps this is an integral part of your game that you can't survive without? Maybe you implement one of those crappy serves where you put "english" on the ball by spinning it off the bat right out of your hand? C'mon, be honest without the high'n mighty bull.
In the First Golden Days of hardbat nirvana (roughly 1931-1939) many of us know that knuckle-spin and finger-spin servers were employed and were devilishly hard to return, but were banned by the ITTF in the late 1930s. A sharp practice yes, but perfectly legal until the ITTF and the USTTA decided to ban them. http://www.allabouttabletennis.com/table-tennis-history.htm Finger spin serves had become so popular during the 1930s that the ITTF decided that, in the best interests of the game, they should change the service rule and make them illegal. The service rule at the time stated...
And the new wording was...
Additionally, umpires were instructed that any form of spin imparted
by anything other than the racket, was prohibited ... AND that
if they were in any doubt about the serve, that they must order any
player to use an open and flat serving hand, with the fingers straight
and together, and
the thumb free. Gee. How did I manage to win, from age 59 to age 62, 2 U-1500 HB U.S. Open Singles Championships, one U-1500 HB National Championship, and one North American U-1500 Championship, plus being a finalist in one U.S. Open U-1500 HB Championship, losing to my good friend Hermann Luechinger, one of Switzerland's better junior players in the Second Golden Days of HB nirvana (1946-1953)? Must have been by using crappy serves where I put Irish-Prussian on the ball by spinning it off my bat right out of my hand. It's not what we know; it's what we think we know that ain't true. Edited by berndt_mann - 02/26/2015 at 6:34pm |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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NoRema
Silver Member Joined: 02/04/2015 Location: On The Table Status: Offline Points: 564 |
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still weren't really called though.
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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(NoRema) (finger- and knuckle spin serves) still weren't really called though.
They weren't called because they were legal according to the USTTA and ITTF service rules of the early and mid-1930s. Both the ITTF and USTTA banned finger- and knucklespin serves in the late 1930s. |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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pingponger
Super Member Joined: 11/19/2012 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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Was the question of offering advice the topic of this thread? It will be good for lively discussion for sure - in another thread. You are definitely entitled to your opinion, but let's keep focus here. :)
You said in a later post that you had trouble serving illegally, because you got so used to serving legally. But it goes both ways : one will have trouble serving legally, if they are so used to serving illegally. So, it means you agree with the coach/parent, that they allow their ward to get used to serving illegally, and later have trouble trying to serve the correct way? I'd be glad to hear how you would reconcile these posts. :) |
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pingponger
Super Member Joined: 11/19/2012 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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I recall the boy was sniffling and coughing the whole time, but still wanted to play. So he gets A for enthusiasm. I'm of the same opinion as yours. I can't imagine doing this to my own kid, even if it seems not a big deal.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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As I mentioned - I am a recreational player - so how I do my serves is really not that big a deal. However, if a junior has plans to be a national level player - perhaps they play to different standard. As I mentioned a national coach wanted me serve in the grey zone - perhaps this how national level players are trained. If I look at most international players - most of them serve illegally. So I am thinking if you want to play high level TT - you probably will have to serve illegally! (again this is just a guess based on observation - not actual experience!)
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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And both get an "F" for sending cold germs to others via the handling of the TT ball and perhaps handshakes. I'm far from being a germophobe, but colds and flus are disruptive. I carry hand sanitizer to TT clubs and especially when traveling for this exact reason. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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wturber
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You don't absolutely have to serve illegally to play high level. But as with other skills, it is definitely beneficial from the standpoint of winning. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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pingponger
Super Member Joined: 11/19/2012 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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I couldn't agree more. And that's just one of the few undesirable behaviors I see in that place, when it comes to ethics - but those are for another thread.
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Baal
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Pet peeve of mine. If you are infectious stay home. Much more concerning than how you serve.
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pingponger
Super Member Joined: 11/19/2012 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 279 |
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Okay, thanks. It makes more sense now, hearing that your opinions came from observation, and not actual experience.
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jrscatman
Premier Member Joined: 10/19/2008 Status: Offline Points: 4585 |
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Yes, my level of play is no where near national level of any country! Can only watch how it's done at the top!
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Butterfly MPS
FH: Donic Acuda S1 BH: Palio CK531A OX |
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berndt_mann
Gold Member Joined: 02/02/2015 Location: Tucson, Arizona Status: Offline Points: 1719 |
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[QUOTE=Baal]Pet peeve of mine. If you are infectious stay home. Much more concerning than how you serve.
Well yes, I think we can all agree than being infectious is even worse than being shown by your father, apparently a nationally ranked player, how to serve illegally, even though according to him this was done because his son wasn't feeling well. One wonders...once this lad recovers, will his father teach him how to serve according to USATT and the ITTF rules of table tennis, or will he continue to serve illegally inasmuch as his peers may both serve illegally plus loopkill his legal serves halfway down to the road to God knows where? |
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bmann1942
Setup: Mark Bellamy Master Craftsman blade, British Leyland hard rubber |
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Baal
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I dont wonder. None of my business what this guy does with the kid. If he is serving illegally in a tournament call an umpire. Preferably one who is competent. Someone who is not convined that pendulum serves ruined the sport Even though nowadays you better have a reverse pendulum. Which incidentally is almost never hidden.
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