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DHS Plastic Ball |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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The difference is that I can actually film and present my practice sessions and show how long the ball lasts. Can AgentHex do this? And if I can show that the ball often lasts less than 1 hour under the precise conditions which I generally use it, will AgentHex apologize for his statements about my integrity?
And if shots that skid through the table occur during the matches and in addition, you can see how much more important for my close-to-the-table, tall man game to be able to attack balls over the table, which is why the bounce of the ball relative to the ground is not as important to me as the bounce of the ball relative to the table/net, again, will AgentHex apologize for not understanding why I say the balls do not bounce since he continually forgets that I talk about taking the ball earlier than most players? Do we really need someone who is casually willing to cast aspersions on the motives and characters of people who put themselves out there on this board posting here?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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The "case" you presented was Baal giving his opinion on the ball, and NL getting irate with your unproductive pedantry of people's opinions on the ball. Pathetic.
It's an unsurprising shame that you can't see your role in how these things go south. It's always everyone else and the social status quo though, isn't it? |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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It's not anyone else, just you. Another example of shifting interpretations depending on which direction the wind blows: Topsheets characteristics of Tenergy akin to tacky one day http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70493&PID=862615&title=has-tenergy-been-surpassed#862615 http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70786&PID=862845#862845 Yet they play nothing alike the next subsequent to Baal's word on the matter http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=70786&PID=862934&title=plastic-ball-end-of-tenergy-for-cnt#862934 Personally I don't find statements from such a source too trustworthy, which I believe is my prerogative. > The "case" you presented was Baal giving his opinion on the ball, and NL getting irate with your unproductive pedantry of people's opinions on the ball. Pathetic. I've criticized these posts previously for being unsubstantiated so I take it you won't be making a case here either. What's really pathetic is folks like you joining the good-ol' mytt ad hom train and believing it's righteous. > It's an unsurprising shame that you can't see your role in how these things go south. It's always everyone else and the social status quo though, isn't it? Do you see anyone else questioning the status quo? It's easy to be an opportunist. |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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Use what exactly against you (on a table tennis forum)? Unless you're claiming things that are untrue behind your anonymity, I'm not sure what you're referring to that will be "leveraged against you." If you're unwilling to disclose who you are and your competencies as it relates to table tennis, why should anyone pay any attention to anything you post here?
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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After I mentioned it last of course NextLevel (who asked in the first place) takes his usual pot shots at those he believes to be below his rating. Even mentioning speaking fluent mandarin in passing is apparently a source of the same from others. Folks with much substance should be able to deduce what they need from what I write. Frankly the rest will believe whatever they want anyway so I don't care. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Again, anyone who has read the posts that AgentHex has linked to can see whether AgentHex's characterization of them is accurate or not because I summarized my position in full detail here: But on this plastic issue, it is a very direct and empirical question and I have made it pointedly, since unlike AgentHex's claims about whether I am right about Tenergy vs. H3 National, it is easy for me to test (I have never used H3 National). Is AgentHex going to apologize on this specific issue if I can provide clear evidence based on filming every hour I play with the balls I purchased yesterday that shows the durability of these balls and how their low bounce affects the way I play over the table vs. celluloid and seamless balls? Because it is one thing to claim that people are wrong, but it is another to claim that they lack integrity. And if not, are we going to allow posters who like to impugn the motives of people for fun (because this kind of thing is not a joke) because they are anonymous stay on this forum? It's clear that the only reason why AgentHex can get away with what he does is his refusal (for good reason too, as he would lose a lot of credibility) to be a public figure. This is all well and good, but on a forum like this, he should not be allowed to have his cake and eat it too.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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AgentHex is lying again. The first time your standard was revealed on this forum was when someone (I believe it was jtsf99) linked to your posts about chopping as inverse looping from ooakforum. It was at this point that most people realized that as much as you insulted <2K players, you were just one of them, and one who was still trying to figure out things that many of them just learned from good coaches. The time I used characteristics of how you played to mock you was on ooakforum (where you are banned now) and I did it in response largely to your attitude towards <2K players and was pointing out that since I was now a 2K player, I wanted to see how you would respond. You write pretentiously about how <2K vs >2K players play. You talk about being able to outloop >2K players in rallies occasionally. When I was 1800, I was posting about how I played and what I thought. Some people found it helpful, some people thought I was trolling. But the bottom line was that since everyone knew who I was (or could figure it out with some mild digging), people could assess what I was saying based on whether I knew enough to say it. It can be very frustrating debating someone on how to execute a decent backhand loop when the person doesn't even have one, but wants to use what he thinks he knows about Kreanga's BH loop to tell me I don't know what I am talking about. When people are ashamed of the truth about them, it says something, especially when they try to present themselves as something other than what they are.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/27/2015 at 3:30pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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I can't even begin to understand your train of thought in this thread. People are presenting opinions based on personal experience. There is no need to substantiate them because nothing objective is being said. For example, Ball calls the ball "garbage" elsewhere based on the time he spent with them. This is his opinion. There is no argument for you to make, only the statement "my experience doesn't match baal's". Having said that, people have gone out of their way to provide more details, background and numbers for you, but really it's a waste of time. Your objective in this thread isn't constructive - it's purposely disruptive. You also seem to have a personal problem with some users, bordering on obsessional. I can't think of any reason why you'd do any of this. It must be difficult for you to see the similarities between an ad-hom train and a justified response to your behavior. From my perspective, it's very clear what's going on in this thread.
There is no nebulous, negative, supressive, oppressive status quo. It's all in your mind. There are users who post regularly and have long histories here, but they don't hold any sway over the rest of us. Your low opinion of everyone non-AgentHex has led you down a dark path of tinfoil hats and invented social hierarchy restrictions. Users are not sheep. There have been times when I've disagreed with Ball, NL, pretty much everyone at one time or another. Ultimately, I agree to disagree. I don't feel any pressure to conform. You've invented a problem to struggle against. You are the social justice warrior no one asked for or needed. Ordinarily, not a problem. Just one quirky internet eccentric howling at the moon. But these ball threads are of great use to me. At this point in time, my club is trying to make a decision on the suitability of the ball, and any venue changes we might need to make. Any feedback from people who have used plastic for any length of time is useful to us. I'm probably not the only one trying to pick the bones out of a bad situation right now. But here you are, blasting away in the thread while making no contribution whatsoever. All you've got is some sort of odd vendetta against NL and Ball, throwing in misinterpreted quotes from unrelated threads about tenergy and H3 similarities.
And here is the classic AH sign-off. Don't agree or can't see your point - you have no substance. More passive/aggressive aggro to flame things up again. If you genuinely don't care then you should start a blog and rant away, because you appear to lack the reasonable social skills to interact with other people in a forum environment. If you don't agree, consider your history of previous suspensions and bans and think again.
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> Again, anyone who has read the posts that AgentHex has linked to can see
whether AgentHex's characterization of them is accurate or not
No, when someone says people brought up on Tenergy can't use anything with tack the honest response from someone brought up on Tenergy/ESN yet prefers to use said tack only for the plastic ball and explicitly considers the two to be more comparable isn't some posthoc justification dance to align his opinion with the opportunistic one. > It's clear that the only reason why AgentHex can get away with what he does is his refusal (for good reason too, as he would lose a lot of credibility) to be a public figure. Oh, so anyone who puts your posts on display has to be a public figure now. > You write pretentiously about how <2K vs >2K players play. I've posted many times about the inability of <2k players to swing at power shots, etc properly with pro setups despite writing glowing reviews of their qualities at such. This is an accurate and apropos statement, and why I recommend against them including for myself. It's not anyone else's fault you can't understand what's being said here, perhaps willfully so. |
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AcudaDave
Gold Member Joined: 11/02/2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 1859 |
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OK...this thread has gotten way out of hand. I just posted it because of my experience playing with the DHS plastic ball. I would appreciate it if you would just stop posting on here AgentHEX or you may become AgentEX.
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Joola Zhou Qihao 90 blade
Joola Dynaryz Inferno max - BH Nittaku Moristo SP 2.0 - FH |
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Pondus
Gold Member Joined: 04/07/2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1933 |
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But everyone (well, 99% or so) of us here are relatively low level - myself included. So that shouldn't be a deterrent for someone to post their opinions about every aspect related to table tennis. It sure hasn't in the past (lol). It does however provide crucial context. In what aspect of life does anyone take input on a subject without knowing the identity/credibility of the source from which the input is coming?
Come on, AgentHEX... you're clearly a smart dude. What's all the fuss about? If you sort of suck at TT (rating-wise), who cares? Like I said, most everyone else here does too. I believe most people come on here to share experiences, seek advice and hopefully find input that can help improve in their game. If everyone here were already really high-level players, what would the motivation to come on here be? |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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> For example, Ball calls the ball "garbage" elsewhere based on the time he spent with them. This is his opinion. There is no argument for you to make, only the statement "my experience doesn't match baal's".
If only that were the reality. In case the post counts pointed out to you were quickly forgotten, Baal's long started his crusade against them based on an impression with some balls from last June, and you can decide whether he considers his opinion of a box of ball equivalent to mine. > There is no nebulous, negative, supressive, oppressive status quo. It's all in your mind. There are users who post regularly and have long histories here, but they don't hold any sway over the rest of us. Surely if that were the case there'd be others in the last year to question the details of these rather vague yet confidently repeated claims. If it's instead your insistence that nobody out of thousands of users ever thought to be the least bit skeptical then I wouldn't be the one to imply groupthink. > If you genuinely don't care then you should start a blog and rant away, because you appear to lack the reasonable social skills to interact with other people in a forum environment. If you don't agree, consider your history of previous suspensions and bans and think again. It really depends on the forum. Some consider contradicting resident socialites a bannable offense. |
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AndySmith
Premier Member Joined: 11/12/2008 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4378 |
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There would only be others if there was actually a problem with what has been going on. But you're the only one with a problem. Please, stop derailing useful threads with your personal crusade. |
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This was a great signature until I realised it was overrated.
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I don't understand what you're asking for? I'm a somewhat <2k player who does pretty alright for a weekend warrior with some relatively novel ideas about the game. Used to play PH double inverted, switched to SH modern def, and for the moment block w/ LP at the table due to an injury. Most of the hate comes from folks who can't stand to be questioned. They throw a fit and blame the skeptical for it. Of course the lesson is to fall in line. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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This the only thread I've posted much about longevity. I would think some details about longevity is important to the DHS ball esp given how much those crusading against against them believe it is. Standing one's ground in a thread instead of capitulating as expected isn't a "personal crusade". You can count the numbers of posts it takes to get straight answers here. |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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I do so frequently. But somehow nobody has ever confused me for a troll. I ended up writing up a web page on table tennis ball speeds, and writing a javascript program to calculate drag on smooth spheres to support my opposition to the vast majority of TT folks who insisted that smashes were travelling 100mph. I have zero problem with going against the status quo when I think the status quo is wrong. I'm an atheist libertarian for goodness sakes and have been since I was about 18. Heck, I was "libertarian" before I knew what that was. Going against the grain has been a pretty standard part of my life. The flak you are receiving has very little to do with you going against the status quo and a lot to do with how you go about doing so. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Does any more really need to be said?
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Consider the following: Suppose, as someone proposed earlier in this thread, AgentHex had written something like this:
============================ Baal, You often say that the DHS balls are garbage. In my tests/play, I have not broken any balls and I have used some for over 3 hours in topspin rallies vs. a player over 2K. How long has the average ball you have used last? Is the cry over how quickly they break exaggerated? ============================== Would we be accusing AgentHex of trolling? OR just explaining how his experiences seem to deviate from those of some of us, including myself? That is the question.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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That's true. I just need to show more "respect" like it's the frickin' mafia. Go along to get along sometimes to acquire social currency to spend elsewhere and don't press the issue when the other side finally relents some. Usually such stipulations come with a quid-pro-quo contract of money for putting on best behavior but it's annoying for an ostensibly open forum. > Would we be accusing AgentHex of trolling? OR just explaining how his experiences seem to deviate from those of some of us, including myself? You keep using that word. Trolling is supposed to mean manipulating others feelings, whereas the problem here seems to be I don't care enough about them. Since it's a big deal, I'll put some effort into softening word choice. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/27/2015 at 4:59pm |
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slevin
Premier Member Joined: 03/15/2012 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 3602 |
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Members not AgentHex: are you arguing with someone else here besides Hex or are you broadly in agreement that plastic balls (apart from XSF) aren't as durable or round on average as of now as compared to celluloid?
Seriously, why feed a troll? He might, in some rare occasion add value but that one time isn't worth hundreds of bickering posts that then obfuscate the main issue or go off on some tangent. Can't we agree to ignore him? Please? For sure, because of Hex's wanting to have the last word in areas he isn't good at, mytt loses when some possible value-adding potential member sees this bickering and then decides not to check posts here or contribute again. So, I implore you, the next time he throws you a big juicy ball down the middle, don't hit it. Just don't play...
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Trade feedback:
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Treating others with respect is a given, and you should do better. But that isn't really the main issue from where I sit. For me it is the constant obfuscation of what should be relatively simple matters of disagreement. Rather than diving into the core issues and getting to the point, you seem to strive to make doing so more difficult, taking the discussion off onto a variety of tangents. You routinely mis-characterize what others say. You change contexts. You apply a lower level of standard of support to your own assertions and a higher standard to others. You mis-characterize situations and facts. You ignore or dismiss counter-points other make to your assertions, and your use of a pejorative tone is routine. I actually rather enjoy revealing when the status-quo is wrong - even when I'm part of that status-quo. If I end up doing a test on the bounce of seamed Chinese 40+ balls, that will be the reason. But in all of your posts you've haven't provided one bit of evidence that would be even a strong clue that the status-quo take on the seamed Chinese balls is in error or seriously off base. I actually wish you had. But instead, you've just wasted everyone's time. Well, that's not entirely true. We have to share the blame. It is also our fault for not just ignoring you. |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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Most of the bickering posts seem to be ad homs against me & subsequent dogpile of blaming the victim, so I agree it's best when you don't contribute to it. To be fair, I don't hand out enough respect to this sort of rubbish for my own good. |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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Yeah, but when you ignore radical viewpoints, some radicals use that as evidence for the truth of their position. Just saying... And still haven't received a direct response on his evidence for his claim that I have been low balling and whether I will get an apology if my tests of a new box reveal that I am not.
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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wturber
Premier Member Joined: 10/28/2008 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3899 |
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Speaking only for myself, he presents the illusion of reasonableness at time and due to my own personality faults I allow myself to get sucked in. You are correct though. We really should just ignore him.
I tried once. I'll do better going forward.
Edited by wturber - 03/27/2015 at 5:37pm |
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Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com Hardbat: Nittaku Resist w/ Dr. Evil or Friendship 802-40 OX |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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I previously asked for any substantiation of these sort of claims, and the fact none will be forthcoming is a foregone conclusion. Most are pretty obviously wrong, eg: > But instead, you've just wasted everyone's time. No, now we know what the seamed ball crusade has been based on and it's not much more than my own experience. But I can see how that doesn't matter. |
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AgentHEX
Gold Member Joined: 12/14/2004 Location: Yo Mama Status: Offline Points: 1641 |
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There's nothing to be said about it. You said you didn't keep track of how long your balls lasted either and mentioned a couple sources for whom it's <=1hr; since there's a history here of bias towards prevailing winds it's not exactly odd to consider it a lowball. The next statement from you after it seems to be higher now includes a new source for which it's 2hr, and this is after I made the joke the word on the street is plastic ball longevity is bullish. Edited by AgentHEX - 03/27/2015 at 5:55pm |
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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That I didn't keep a strict track is very different from that I had no idea. It's very easy to estimate that a ball breaks about an average of once every match or two matches and see that most matches are at most 30 minutes. That one source says 2 hours (and he stopped using the plastic ball in his words because he couldn't stand them) is neither here nor there. After all, I omitted a 2250 player who hit with a 2500 player who says he broke 3 in the space of 2 hours. When you use many types of balls simultaneously as I do, you quickly see the survivors. But yo can't track every single one as part of a multiball heap. Again you have no evidence that I am lowballing. Simply say so or if you want to, double down on it so it can be clear to everyone that you are accusing me of being a liar.
Edited by NextLevel - 03/27/2015 at 6:04pm |
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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smackman
Assistant Moderator Joined: 07/20/2009 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 3264 |
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threads like this is the main reason we don't get more people getting involved with this forum
always just ends (or dosen't end) of trying to win a fictional argument. It just becomes a blur of copy paste, he said she said things and all from a couple of social table tennis players practicing their wordcraft Hexlevel wins
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Ulmo Duality,Donic BlueGrip C2 red max ,Yinhe Super Kim Ox Black
NZ table tennis selector, third in the World (plate Doubles)I'm Listed on the ITTF website |
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lineup32
Gold Member Joined: 12/06/2012 Location: Calif Status: Offline Points: 1195 |
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+1
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NextLevel
Forum Moderator Joined: 12/15/2011 Location: Somewhere Good Status: Offline Points: 14842 |
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+2
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I like putting heavy topspin on the ball...
Cybershape Carbon FH/BH: H3P 41D. Lumberjack TT, not for lovers of beautiful strokes. No time to train... |
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